Go, Andries, Go - the story of Andries Wilhelmus Jacobus Pretorius

[Uncle Paul]

And how would members of all the over 800+ ethnicities in Sub-Saharan Africa, or the students of the history of the whole continent, from Olduvai Gorge (or I think there may have been an older anatomical human fossil find) to today, or who studies any of a myriad of other areas thereon, in focus or in number, ALL agree that those two towns were mandatory and essential learning, with priority to almost all others, across the board, pray tell?

Have you really not noticed that I'm ethnocentric yet?
The Boer Wars are the most important historical event in Sub-Saharan Africa, though, by any reasonable measure.

 

[Patine]

The Boer Wars are the most important historical event in Sub-Saharan Africa, though, by any reasonable measure.

That's like a Serbian saying the Balkan Wars are the most important historical even in European history by any reasonable measure, and just as ludicrous.

 

[Uncle Paul]

That's like a Serbian saying the Balkan Wars are the most important historical even in European history by any reasonable measure, and just as ludicrous.

You could argue that the Great Trek and the Rhodesian UDI were of equal importance, but the most important parts of southern African history all revolve around the interactions of various European-origin groups with each other and with the local tribes.

 

[Patine]

You could argue that the Great Trek and the Rhodesian UDI were of equal importance, but the most important parts of southern African history all revolve around the interactions of various European-origin groups with each other and with the local tribes.

A theory of revolution about as sound as a Geocentric Universe in flaugistan with crystal spheres around each celestial body and fixed stars.

 

[Uncle Paul]

A theory of revolution about as sound as a Geocentric Universe in flaugistan with crystal spheres around each celestial body and fixed stars.

Fine, what was more important? Joe Kony and his child soldiers?

 

[Patine]

Joe Kony and his child soldiers?

And, this is big alternative retort, eh?

 

[Ajidica]

Kruger lived in Waterval Onder, and his house there was proclaimed a national monument. That's the important event I was referring to.

I've heard of parochialism, but man, this is something else!

They were a military threat with a weak culture. Suleiman's court was decadent and degenerate. I suspect that a large amount of the anger towards Westerners in the Islamic world is because they are insecure that their culture hasn't reached the heights ours has.

"Our" culture? Bruh you live on the butt-end of nowhere and seem dead set on trying to roll back the freedoms that millions of allied soldiers that fought and died for.

 

[Evie]

Someone living somewhere is by no mean and in no way a historical event.

It's a footnote. As is that village.

 

[Uncle Paul]

And, this is big alternative retort, eh?

Indeed.

I've heard of parochialism, but man, this is something else!


"Our" culture? Bruh you live on the butt-end of nowhere and seem dead set on trying to roll back the freedoms that millions of allied soldiers that fought and died for.

MUH FREEDUMBS

Someone living somewhere is by no mean and in no way a historical event.

It's a footnote. As is that village.

Boerewors is still better than Poutine...

 

[Remorseless1]

I somehow doubt this man is celebrated in modern South Africa. The Board were far more insistent on racial segregation and second-class status for non whites than their English overlords. In the US the equivalent might be George Armstrong Custer, but it's considered bad taste to celebrate Angie Custer.

Also, insisting that the rest of the globe will be left with Stone Age technology without those brilliant Europeans is not only bigited, but provably false. The Chinese invented gunpowder, printing presses, and spaghetti!!! The early Islamic caliphate gave us algebra. The Inca were master engineers. The Polynesians spread across the largest ocean in the world long before Europeans sailed down the western coastline of Africa.

 

[Patine]

I somehow doubt this man is celebrated in modern South Africa.

Yep. I think his respect in modern South Africa is diminishing.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I somehow doubt this man is celebrated in modern South Africa. The Board were far more insistent on racial segregation and second-class status for non whites than their English overlords. In the US the equivalent might be George Armstrong Custer, but it's considered bad taste to celebrate Angie Custer.

He is still on the Krugerrand, and is a hero to most Boers. Many blacks have a negative view of him, but then again, they have a positive view of Julius Malema, who has called for the land of White people to be seized without compensating them - a blatantly racist proposal that amounts to legalized theft. So if the same people who admire Malema (who is also famous for singing a song praising genocide called "Shoot the Boer") dislike Kruger, that only makes me like Kruger more.

Also, insisting that the rest of the globe will be left with Stone Age technology without those brilliant Europeans is not only bigited, but provably false. The Chinese invented gunpowder, printing presses, and spaghetti!!! The early Islamic caliphate gave us algebra. The Inca were master engineers. The Polynesians spread across the largest ocean in the world long before Europeans sailed down the western coastline of Africa.

I never said China would be in the Stone Age...East Asian cultures are different from Western cultures, but they are our equals.

Yep. I think his respect in modern South Africa is diminishing.

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For every statue they tear down, we will put up two statues that are twice as big. They ought not poke the bear. We can tear down their statues, too.

 

[Evie]

"Black South Africans like a guy who want to seize white lands to give to black people, which only proves to me how much of a hero the guy who led the seizure of black lands to give to white people was" is one hell of a flex.

 

[Uncle Paul]

"Black South Africans like a guy who want to seize white lands to give to black people, which only proves to me how much of a hero the guy who led the seizure of black lands to give to white people was" is one hell of a flex.

The Boer Republic area had been heavily thinned of population by Shaka's Mfecane. The Boers entered land that was sparsely populated, and built beautiful farms on it.

 

[Evie]

None of which actually justifies other people's land.

"Do unto others then scream bloody murder that they want to do the same unto you" is an ugly way of life.

 

[Uncle Paul]

None of which actually justifies other people's land.

The Bantu took it from the Khoi-san people who were there first.

 

[Evie]

Which would be a great excuse if you seized the land and returned it to the Khoi-san, but since the land was mysteriously redistributed to Boers instead, nope "seized black land to redistribute to white people" still apply...

Stealing from thieves then keeping the spoils only makes you an even bigger thief.

 

[Remorseless1]

Boers were also rather insistent on segregation and second and third-class citizenship for the majority who lived in South Africa well before 1948. And wasn't it like 10 percent of the population (whites, natch) owned 80-85% of the land? At least in America, most of us are ashamed of our ancestors who oppressed Africans and Native Americans.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Which would be a great excuse if you seized the land and returned it to the Khoi-san, but since the land was mysteriously redistributed to Boers instead, nope "seized black land to redistribute to white people" still apply...

Stealing from thieves then keeping the spoils only makes you an even bigger thief.

Would you consider Constantinople to be stolen from Greece? Would you consider Kaliningrad to be stolen from Germany?

Boers were also rather insistent on segregation and second and third-class citizenship for the majority who lived in South Africa well before 1948. And wasn't it like 10 percent of the population (whites, natch) owned 80-85% of the land? At least in America, most of us are ashamed of our ancestors who oppressed Africans and Native Americans.

That was a response to the Boer War...the horrors of the concentration camps inflicted upon helpless Boer women and children led to the conclusion that the only way Boers could be safe was by controlling South Africa, not unlike how the horrors of WWII led many Jews to the conclusion that they could only be safe by having a state of their own (Israel).

 

[Evie]

I don't see anyone in this thread from those places slinging mud at the former inhabitants because they want their lands back.

But I do see a Boer who is disparaging Black South Africans because they want their land back...