Go, Andries, Go - the story of Andries Wilhelmus Jacobus Pretorius

Patine

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It's not like tribesmen living under a chief's iron fist had any freedom to begin with.
True, but it was their own laws and traditions under their own leaders. The Boers weren't, in the long-term, content with that for themselves, though.
 

Uncle Paul

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True, but it was their own laws and traditions under their own leaders. The Boers weren't, in the long-term, content with that for themselves, though.
The Great Trek happened because Boers didn't want to live under British rule.
 

Patine

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But they killed Constantinople.
In the 15th Century, under another completely different culture, form of Government, mentality, and even speaking a mutually unintelligible Turkic language as the people of Modern Turkey. And, this centuries-old conquest has no impact on the Modern Republic of Turkey's Constitutional system of Government or elections, at all.
 

Uncle Paul

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In the 15th Century, under another completely different culture, form of Government, mentality, and even speaking a mutually unintelligible Turkic language as the people of Modern Turkey. And, this centuries-old conquest has no impact on the Modern Republic of Turkey's Constitutional system of Government or elections, at all.
Then the modern Boers can't be blamed for taking land that "belonged" to the Bantu.
 

Uncle Paul

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And how do the Bantus tie to the British in this way? This was brought up last night in the, "vicious cycle," statement I made.
The land that is now eastern South Africa had been depopulated by Shaka, opening it up for freedom-seeking Boers.
 

Patine

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Then the modern Boers can't be blamed for taking land that "belonged" to the Bantu.
Not equivalent at all, as the seizure of Bantu lands, and it's legacy, has a LOT to do with South African Government, both during and after Apartheid.
 

Uncle Paul

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Not equivalent at all, as the seizure of Bantu lands, and it's legacy, has a LOT to do with South African Government, both during and after Apartheid.
Well, they seized those lands from the original Khoisan people first, so...
 

Uncle Paul

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But they didn't stop there, in the long-term, is my point.
????
The Boer Republics were built in areas that had been cleared by Shaka. There were some conflicts with Bantu tribes, but they were sparse in number because of Shaka. Look up Churchill and the dog in the manger.
 

Uncle Paul

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So, maybe the Khoisans should get the land from both the Bantus and Boers...
There's too few of them left. Why are you so intent on turning the Boers into a landless, impoverished, dispossessed people?
 

Patine

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There's too few of them left. Why are you so intent on turning the Boers into a landless, impoverished, dispossessed people?
To be honest, I'm not, personally, in my own views. I would be for an amicable and just solution. I am merely countering your viewpoints, specifically, on a rhetorical and ethical level. I have not formally offered any possible solution that I might have to the whole mess.
 

Uncle Paul

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To be honest, I'm not, personally, in my own views. I would be for an amicable and just solution. I am merely countering your viewpoints, specifically, on a rhetorical and ethical level. I have not formally offered any possible that I might have to the whole mess.
Any solution that involves seizing land/property from Boers with no compensation is not just.
 

Patine

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Any solution that involves seizing land/property from Boers with no compensation is not just.
But, apparently, according to you, it was just to seize Bantu lands because they were, "primitive," "poor," "savage," and a few of their individual leaders did precipitous things?
 

Uncle Paul

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But, apparently, according to you, it was just to seize Bantu lands because they were, "primitive," "poor," "savage," and a few of their individual leaders did precipitous things?
Boers won that land with blood, sweat, and tears.
 

Ajidica

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Regarding land, let us not bicker and moan about who killed who.
What is obvious is that after WW2, when most countries were realizing "hmm, maintaining colonial rule and denying people equal citizenship and suffrage is a bad look", South Africa decided to do a 180 and clamp down hard on equal citizenship.
So let's focus on that, a time when people should have known better.
South Africa was the sacrificial lamb, the scapegoat. It was a way for US politicians to pander to black voters - throw South Africa under the bus, so they could win black votes without having to do anything to help the blacks in their own country.
Well, more like the Cold War was over so the United States didn't see any need to continue dealing with the international embarrassment South Africa had turned into; a country that was routinely mocked on primetime British TV as being full of ignorant bigots.

It's not like tribesmen living under a chief's iron fist had any freedom to begin with.
That is like, completely and utterly at odds with what has been observed in 'tribal' societies in the modern day and throughout history - including early medieval Anglo-Saxon England and Scandinavia.
 

Remorseless1

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You think their savage and primitive ways were noble and worth preserving, even if you didn't use the phrase "noble savage".

Meanwhile, China, Turkey, and other authoritarian states are more than welcome in the international community. South Africa was the sacrificial lamb, the scapegoat. It was a way for US politicians to pander to black voters - throw South Africa under the bus, so they could win black votes without having to do anything to help the blacks in their own country.
Dude, SA is no longer a pariah state because the government finally got rid of its disgusting apartheid system. Your country has issues just like any other country. To be crystal clear, I don't condemn SA -- changing government policy is easier than changing hearts and minds. My country is still dealing with racism despite government policies. I just disagree with your views.
 
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