Gods & Kings, mod-related speculation

[Pazyryk]

OK, religion, espionage, better diplomacy and combat. Great! How about some mod-related inferences, guesses, or whathaveyou...

• Hidden Nationality (natural inference from Privateer unit, though not necessarily correct)
• Ability to enter foreign cities (what spies do; and I had just hacked this for Éa!)
• Other kinds of "unit builds" from espionage (i.e., units do stuff with progress bars; can probably be subverted to non-espionage things)

And one more...

• Firaxis will finally have cleaned up its C++ code (implementing non-functional code, removing legacy stuff, documentation) to the point where they will release the dll for us.

 

[Pazyryk]

Well, my 2nd speculation is unlikely. I just read that spies are not physical units on the map. (So perhaps my hack will still be needed.)

 

[ww2commander]

I am mostly interested in seeing if they finally release the DLL as you mentioned.

From there it should be possible to do a lot of new things. So far the community has proven that CiV's modding approach is more powerful and streamlined.

Hopefully more details on 'game mechanic' changes come out as the whole x amount of units, civs, buildings kind of glazes over me as the real sauce is in the mechanics!

 

[killmeplease]

i dont see how civ4-like religious zombie diplomacy is 'better'
non-unit spies is an improvement though

 

[Louis XXIV]

I suspect the upcoming dll release will be a release of the vanilla dll.

Religion seems like it'll add some options. We don't know enough yet to know if it's flexible. Certainly the basic concept (similar to Civ4, having something that influences diplomacy with others) is easy to use. It's the faith accumulation, attribute attaching aspects that are more difficult.

However, I can still imagine mods like TAM taking advantage of them.

 

[Pazyryk]

I suspect the upcoming dll release will be a release of the vanilla dll.

My dll speculation, for what it's worth (and I made this speculation before expansion announcement, but with a strong feeling that there would be one soon). I don't think Firaxis is intentionally trying to hold back modding while knowingly (repeatedly) lying about future dll release. I suspect they were always sincere, even while missing past promises on dll release. The only explanation that made sense to me is that the base Civ5 C++ code is a mess, containing old legacy Civ4 stuff plus a hodgepodge of not-yet-implemented stuff to go into the expansion. They did not want to release it in that state and did not have the resources (allocated programmer, which = $$$) to clean it up.

Now, given that G&K has certainly been in the works for a while, and I'm sure 2K Greg knew about it (or his sources knew about it) when the last dll promise was made in December, it seems likely to me that the expansion and dll release are connected.

If that's true, it's hard for me to imagine that they've split resources between cleaning up vanilla C++ for dll release and making the expansion. It would make more sense to have one effort on the expansion C++. My prediction is that vanilla dll will go into the electronic shredder, so to speak, never to be seen by outsiders. But I could be wrong, of course.

 

[ww2commander]

The main predicament now is that some modding efforts will be put on ice as most will want to make sure their mod/scenario is G&K compatible!

I for one am taking a go slow approach on my mod after reading the news.

 

[Gedemon]

Well, I don't know for others, but if I may put on hold the implementation of features that could be part of the expansion, for the other parts no need to wait (well except if the DLL is required), and that's a big part!

 

[Kafelek]

On a speculative note, is the expansion likely to make implementing custom art (for wonders, improvments eg.) possible?
Actually I was kinda hoping for that feature first and foremost, but yeah the rest is ok

 

[Pazyryk]

On a speculative note, is the expansion likely to make implementing custom art (for wonders, improvments eg.) possible?
Actually I was kinda hoping for that feature first and foremost, but yeah the rest is ok

I would hope so. I've always made the assumption that the developers want to help modders, but someone at some level (wearing a suit, no doubt) has made the calculation that it is not worth diverting the necessary resources. So we got what we got with vanilla release, but very little in the following 1.5 years. If it was "modular" at that point, great. If it was still hard-coded in dll (which is sometimes faster/easier to implement), too bad. But the expansion amounts to a year (perhaps) of new development and a chance for developers (with or without explicit approval from the suits) to change hard-coded stuff into a more modular implementation. And if they haven't, then modders will do it with dll access.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, I don't know for others, but if I may put on hold the implementation of features that could be part of the expansion, for the other parts no need to wait (well except if the DLL is required), and that's a big part!

I'm unfortunately well past the point where I can put my own religion-ish Mythology mod on hold just because the expansion's going to overlap with my own system. It's too bad, really; I either have to make the two systems exclusive (which'd obviously make folks less likely to use my mod), stack them (which'd have serious balance issues), try to combine them (not easy), or ditch my mod completely. For now I'm going to assume I'll be combining them (using their system for "global" effects while I keep the local effects of my own system), but I just don't know.

Likewise, I'm not sure whether to ditch my plans for the modified espionage/diplomacy systems, based on their changes to both. Without details of exactly what they're implementing, it's just hard to make any long-term plans.

 

[Louis XXIV]

FWIW, you can still release a mod for those who don't buy the expansion.

 

[Pazyryk]

I'm still trying to release an alpha before G&K. But you can bet that the modders will all go where the modding is best. That's one reason why it would be counterproductive (and I think unlikely) for Firaxis to release dll for vanilla and not G&K.

 

[Spatzimaus]

But you can bet that the modders will all go where the modding is best.

Exactly. Even if a mod isn't going to REQUIRE the expansion, you can't have mods that are mutually exclusive with the expansion because, especially over time, the majority of players would prefer Firaxis' content. It's the same as with DLCs, just more pronounced; while I don't have any of them, there's no point in me adding the same Wonders, civs, etc. that they do.

Again, use my Mythology mod as an example. I'm obviously going to have a conflict with the expansion; my "religion" system involves seven pantheons of gods and a new yield (Favor) that has local and global effects. The global effects involve periodically adding a new minor god to your pantheon to get certain bonuses.
The expansion, on the other hand, involves a religion system involving eight or nine religions, a new yield (Faith) that has mostly global effects involving adding new traits to your religion to get certain bonuses.

Sure, my system looks to be much more complex, and is tied to other things (Events, Myth units, Heroes) that the expansion probably won't have. I'm not going to scrap my own mod because of this expansion. But I WILL have to figure out how to integrate the two, removing any redundant bits from my own mod.