Going for Gold: Units

[CppMaster]

Yeah, Dromons afr fine - no city killers, but good naval support.
What I didlike about the current state of navy is that submarines are not special any more. Before the change to the ranged ship line, their speciality was the fire and retreat ability, which made them unique ate water. Now they are the same as ranged ships, except that they cant attack land units and are very fragile vs melee ships. I don't see their point any more.

They have to be detected, so they are like assassins.

 

[Heavy Q]

You do need at least like 3 boarding party Triremes to clear the way first and foremost however, otherwise they'll get destroyed.

This is why I find them useless. You need to pretty much have 100% won the naval war for them to be marginally effective, at which point you're probably better off building land units or non-mil buildings/units, since you've already won.

 

[chicorbeef]

Zeppelins should be able to move after attacking. They are currently the only 1 range unit that cannot.

So will this be addressed? Zeppelins should also have 5 movement as well, imo.

 

[CrazyG]

Bumping suggestion that zeppelins move after attacking.

Also the new chariot archers are really bad. Most of the time an archer is better, and archers don't require horses. The only merit I see to chariots is that they upgrade to skirmishers, or I build them just to get two from Terracotta Army.

 

[Gazebo]

Bumping suggestion that zeppelins move after attacking.

Also the new chariot archers are really bad. Most of the time an archer is better, and archers don't require horses. The only merit I see to chariots is that they upgrade to skirmishers, or I build them just to get two from Terracotta Army.

They should do that in the latest, do they not?

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Can confirm that Led Zeppelins move after attacking in the new version.

Something I'd like to revisit is the strength of archer units. In my current game, I have a land army consisting almost entirely of gatling guns/machine guns/bazookas, and they're very strong, in my opinion too strong. What do others think about this?

 

[CrazyG]

They should do that in the latest, do they not?

G

Missed it in the change log.

Can confirm that Led Zeppelins move after attacking in the new version.

Something I'd like to revisit is the strength of archer units. In my current game, I have a land army consisting almost entirely of gatling guns/machine guns/bazookas, and they're very strong, in my opinion too strong. What do others think about this?

I haven't had a chance to use the late game ranged units much, but is it a problem that they are strong?

I think the inherit promotions on gatling/machine guns are weird.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

The biggest problem I see is that (I think) their melee CS is too high - I have no problem with their high RCS, but with their "tanky" CS they can go toe-to-toe with most melee units, or at least that's my experience, especially if you take into account that they deal damage when attacked, but suffer no damage when attacking.

That's problematic especially when compounded with the fact that they're quite cheap, cheaper than the supposedly stronger melee units; they don't require strategic resources; there aren't any units with special bonuses against them (for example mounted ranged and mounted melee units are vulnerable to ordinary infantry); they have a strong bonus against armor units, making armor counter-play weaker.

 

[Legen]

My experience is that, once you reach gatling guns, melee and mounted melee units become obsolete very fast. Gatling guns can take melee hits from fusiliers thanks to their high melee CS and their covering fire promotion, while having a RCS higher than the Riflemen's CS in the Modern Era. I think they need to be toned down, their power feel like a Modern Era unit instead of an Industrial Era one. Even Foreign Legions suffer more than you'd expect against them.

Machine guns do feel overtuned, considering how gatling guns are right now. I can't say much about bazookas at the moment, I haven't warred with them yet. My latest lategame was peaceful (for me, the rest of the world was burning).

 

[Gazebo]

My experience is that, once you reach gatling guns, melee and mounted melee units become obsolete very fast. Gatling guns can take melee hits from fusiliers thanks to their high melee CS and their covering fire promotion, while having a RCS higher than the Riflemen's CS in the Modern Era. I think they need to be toned down, their power feel like a Modern Era unit instead of an Industrial Era one. Even Foreign Legions suffer more than you'd expect against them.

Machine guns do feel overtuned, considering how gatling guns are right now. I can't say much about bazookas at the moment, I haven't warred with them yet. My latest lategame was peaceful (for me, the rest of the world was burning).

The improved potency of ranged units with the gating gun and the machine gun in terms of CS is intentional and a reflection of the realities of machine gun warfare becoming far more defensively focused. I’m open to tweaks but this isn’t necessarily an unintended outcome.

 

[Owlbebach]

The improved potency of ranged units with the gating gun and the machine gun in terms of CS is intentional and a reflection of the realities of machine gun warfare becoming far more defensively focused. I’m open to tweaks but this isn’t necessarily an unintended outcome.

I think they are fine really. It bring diversity into war

 

[Stalker0]

I think they are fine really. It bring diversity into war

Yeah I think there are several segments like that.

When knights come out they are the strongest unit and dominate the field. Then the Tercio suddenly makes the core melee unit very strong.

Gatling gun helps dominate as a ranged unit. Then aircraft start to take over as dominant.

So I see that play out over several areas of the game and don’t think it’s necessarily a problem.

 

[Han_YOLO]

I agree that ranged units are in a good place. I was very skeptical of the changes to ranged units, but I was wrong. Before the changes, I used a few ranged units as medics, but otherwise preferred siege units for damage. Now the decision between ranged and siege is more balanced.

 

[Legen]

Yeah I think there are several segments like that.

When knights come out they are the strongest unit and dominate the field. Then the Tercio suddenly makes the core melee unit very strong.

Gatling gun helps dominate as a ranged unit. Then aircraft start to take over as dominant.

So I see that play out over several areas of the game and don’t think it’s necessarily a problem.

Ok, I'm convinced. I actually like to see warfare evolving over the course of the game.

 

[pineappledan]

Makes perfect sense to me.

And yeah, the Machine gun and the Artillery were kings of the Modern Era. As long as the power swings heavilly in favor of air in the atomic/information eras, but I don't seem to do much fighting on those eras.

 

[merill]

I see some people saying that a horseman/elephant "spam" (if enough horse) may be difficult to repeal early. If you need 2 spearmen per elephant, the supply limit may prevent you to doing that and letting you with 1 spearman for each horseman/elephant. I didn't play aggressive (and not enough) so i can't say it's true or not.
What is your opinion on that?

If it's really a problem, i can try something, tuning the resource generator (i have re-coded the strategic generator part long ago for testing).Or maybe the spearmen should have access to an other powerful (ai-friendly) anti-mounted promotion.

 

[Owlbebach]

I see some people saying that a horseman/elephant "spam" (if enough horse) may be difficult to repeal early. If you need 2 spearmen per elephant, the supply limit may prevent you to doing that and letting you with 1 spearman for each horseman/elephant. I didn't play aggressive (and not enough) so i can't say it's true or not.
What is your opinion on that?

If it's really a problem, i can try something, tuning the resource generator (i have re-coded the strategic generator part long ago for testing).Or maybe the spearmen should have access to an other powerful (ai-friendly) anti-mounted promotion.

Never had that problem, unless you have Atilla with Elephants

 

[tu_79]

I see some people saying that a horseman/elephant "spam" (if enough horse) may be difficult to repeal early. If you need 2 spearmen per elephant, the supply limit may prevent you to doing that and letting you with 1 spearman for each horseman/elephant. I didn't play aggressive (and not enough) so i can't say it's true or not.
What is your opinion on that?

If it's really a problem, i can try something, tuning the resource generator (i have re-coded the strategic generator part long ago for testing).Or maybe the spearmen should have access to an other powerful (ai-friendly) anti-mounted promotion.

You are talking on Multiplayer, aren't you?

Thing is, mounted units are limited by horse availability. I like to play with sparse resource for this reason. Usually I can't build more than 2-4 horsemen if I don't expand. And spearsmen were buffed recently, they should be more resilient. Even fortifying has been made more noob friendly (holding still for 1 turn automatically grants fortified status).

Songhai is too OP for most games if you don't know how to counter them, but I guess this can be banned, or special rules applied (not declaring war before turn X).

 

[CrazyG]

I like to play with sparse resource for this reason.

What I don't like about sparse resources is the small number of luxuries often leads to getting random monopolies really easily.

 

[merill]

What I don't like about sparse resources is the small number of luxuries often leads to getting random monopolies really easily.

That's why i modified my map script to have "sparse strategic resources"

edit:

And spearsmen were buffed recently, they should be more resilient.

The 10->11 buff in january?
I'm don't know if there are a problem. If someone say "just build horsemen, you don't need anything else vs ai" or "How can i defend against horsemen in MP? Spearmen don't seem to do enough damage to stop them", how can I answer?