Going For Gold: World Congress Projects

[pineappledan]

On Passing the New Menin Gate - Siegfried Sassoon (1927)

Who will remember, passing through this Gate,
the unheroic dead who fed the guns?
Who shall absolve the foulness of their fate,-
Those doomed, conscripted, unvictorious ones?

Crudely renewed, the Salient holds its own.
Paid are its dim defenders by this pomp;
Paid, with a pile of peace-complacent stone,
The armies who endured that sullen swamp.

Here was the world's worst wound. And here with pride
'Their name liveth for ever', the Gateway claims.
Was ever an immolation so belied
as these intolerably nameless names?
Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime
Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.

 

[Gidoza]

I feel like that's a point with the end of the tech tree in general -- right now, it's somewhat 2013 and doesn't reflect how society and culture have evolved in the past 7 or so years. Entering space and GDRs are there, but little mention of cyberwarfare and autonomous drones. Warfare, espionage, and science have all evolved in the time since 2013, and I think it might be worthwhile to have a conversation on whether the tech tree should change to reflect that, but not here.

For relevance's sake, in simplest form, are you suggesting just shifting the spaceship parts to Future Tech? Or on some level will it become necessary to fold Future Worlds into VP (I kid, but that would be awesome).

My suggestion would be...

1. What we presently know of as Science Victory becomes the Time Victory and totally replaces it.

2. You require, say, 3 Future Techs in addition to the original conditions of current Science Victory in order to complete the matter.

3. An actual Science Victory is achieved by being, say, 15 techs ahead of the person in 2nd place for tech - if you're that far ahead in tech, you *have* won and we might as well admit it.


Or in other words, winning because you hit turn 500 just isn't a condition - and I can't say that I know when it actually ever has been, since all the other conditions end up happening sooner anyways. So let's just drop that and focus on other things.

 

[ProCatGamer]

idea of adding a WC Wargames wonder to 1st place

I actually like this idea as it's weird that warmongering games is the only one without a unique wonder.

5 per Defensive Pact (New Code)

However I'm not so sure about this...
I get what is trying to be achieved here with the theme of Belgium and such
But getting a defensive pack is already hard which provides fewer incentives (e.g. can't get it when have a weak military unlike Belgium and when I have a strong army people won't want to make it with me as I already plan of dominating the world or already have a high warmongering score)

 

[kenneth1221]

But getting a defensive pack is already hard which provides fewer incentives (e.g. can't get it when have a weak military unlike Belgium and when I have a strong army people won't want to make it with me as I already plan of dominating the world or already have a high warmongering score)

Might even be a tad counterintuitive, if having vassals grants a free defensive pact.

 

[pineappledan]

What about this?
Menin Gate
22
1Great Writer Point
2 on unit death (flavor boost)
1 on Forts, Citadels and Landmarks (main boost)

 

[Stalker0]

So one I still have with the WC is the dominance of World Religion proposals. Inevitably when the congress opens, a proposal like this gets submitted. If it fails, someone else will try with a different religion. And if one is passed, almost always the next congress will have a repel for that proposal.

One way or the other, world religion proposals suck up a lot of space in the WC...which tends to take away from other options.

 

[Gidoza]

So one I still have with the WC is the dominance of World Religion proposals. Inevitably when the congress opens, a proposal like this gets submitted. If it fails, someone else will try with a different religion. And if one is passed, almost always the next congress will have a repel for that proposal.

One way or the other, world religion proposals suck up a lot of space in the WC...which tends to take away from other options.

I mean I know that this would be difficult, but my intuitive gut response is to say that I'd expect to have a higher number of proposals per session, in a vein similar to how the number of maximum religions reflects the number of Civilizations in the game.

I guess what's interesting about the Religion proposals is that unlike many (or most) other proposals, it doesn't provide much of a real effect per say, but voting for it relates to creating more votes - and I think that that's where the appeal is. Whatever else may be the case, you can always go back to other proposals later to benefit yourself if you have the votes to support them, and that's what makes World Religion so valuable - it actually *isn't* about the Religion per se.

I don't have a suggestion at this point, I'm just thinking out loud. But presumably just having your religion get other bonuses and being able to spread more (and hence having more religious votes anyways) - you would think - would make it lucrative enough.

 

[Stalker0]

What would people think to making natural heritage sites +4 instead of +2 yields? I don't mind some weaker policies, but even if you have a couple of natural sites the yields are just very low at that point in the game.

 

[Gidoza]

What would people think to making natural heritage sites +4 instead of +2 yields? I don't mind some weaker policies, but even if you have a couple of natural sites the yields are just very low at that point in the game.

I guess the issue with this policy is that it's only in any worth proposing if you have two or more natural wonders, because it's likely otherwise that you're just giving other players the same bonus. It isn't weak because the bonus on the tile is low, it's weak because it's nearly impossible to be in a situation where it benefits you enough relative to other players to be worth proposing.

In other news, I find the Menin gate weak and not worth my time. I think the Gold standard for bonus attack makes more sense. If everyone gets an attack bonus, then it just cancels itself out and it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Stalker0]

If everyone gets an attack bonus, then it just cancels itself out and it doesn't make much sense.

Not quite. An attack bonus isn't the same as a general combat bonus. First, it only benefits people in wars (aka encouraging conflict). Second, attacking generally favors the person that takes initiative, with a focus on ranged attacks.

So even if two civs at wars both have the bonus, it doesn't mean they are using it equally.

 

[pineappledan]

I guess the issue with this policy is that it's only in any worth proposing if you have two or more natural wonders, because it's likely otherwise that you're just giving other players the same bonus. It isn't weak because the bonus on the tile is low, it's weak because it's nearly impossible to be in a situation where it benefits you enough relative to other players to be worth proposing.

Even if you only have 1 natural wonder it is still worth proposing. Generally there are only slightly more than half as many natural wonders as there are players per map setting (In a standard game, there are 8 players and 5 natural wonders). If 5 players had 1 natural wonder each then that is 3 players that are denied the benefit of that resolution. Even if you only benefit the same amount as 4 competing civs, you are still benefiting more than 3 remaining civs. This also ignores that it is more likely that you are only giving a bonus to 2 or 3 other civs, given how common it is for natural wonders to spawn next to city-states.

In other news, I find the Menin gate weak and not worth my time. I think the Gold standard for bonus attack makes more sense. If everyone gets an attack bonus, then it just cancels itself out and it doesn't make much sense.

If everyone contributed the exact same amount of production to a WC project then everyone would get the silver bonus. If any civ contributes more, aiming for the 1st place prize, then there will necessarily be at least 1 civ that doesn't reach silver. Generally, 2 civs will contribute most of the production to a WC project, which means that most civs will not reach silver. In my own experience, a breakdown like this is typical, where 2-3 civs will take silver, which means the remaining 5 didn't. The WC proposal specifically encourages you to go after the civs who didn't contribute to your arms race, and you know exactly who they are.

re: the Menin Gate. I like that it is a wonder, but I don't have a strong opinion on what it should do. I really was pushing for the wargames resolution to have a wonder because

• every other WC project has a wonder
  • This means that a winner can further augment their 1st prize with wonder bonuses (WC proposals that boost wonders, goddess of beauty, instant boosts for completing a wonder, etc.)
  • The winner also gets a historic event
  • Like any other WC project wonder, the wargames 1st prize can be conquered and stolen by another player later.
  • It has an icon in your city. A "trophy" for your winning a WC project, if you will. This adds a bit more flavor to the project.
• A wonder is a permanent bonus. I didn't like that the old 1st place prize for Wargames was a massive production investment that only gave you a 20 turn expiring bonus. No permanent bonus made the wargames proposal uniquely forgettable.
• A wonder gives you access to all the building bonuses and tables, opening up all sorts of possibilities for what the Menin Gate can do.

W.r.t. the specific bonuses of the menin gate, They work extremely well for an imperialism player. The extra 11 is the tiny extra push that forts need to be spammable everywhere in combination with the colonialism tenet (21 on forts and citadels). This is the first patch with Menin Gate as a wonder and I didn't expect to get it perfect the first time. However, you can look through this post and see that basically no one was offering ideas for what a wargames wonder should actually do. Now there's a wargames wonder, so maybe people will actually start a conversation for what this wonder needs to do.

• Maybe it just needs bigger numbers? (12, so Colonialism forts get +222?)
• Maybe it could give a promotion to Great Generals, like medic?
• Maybe it should augment defensive buildings in all cities?

 

[Gidoza]

Even if you only have 1 natural wonder it is still worth proposing. Generally there are only slightly more than half as many natural wonders as there are players per map setting (In a standard game, there are 8 players and 5 natural wonders). If 5 players had 1 natural wonder each then that is 3 players that are denied the benefit of that resolution. Even if you only benefit the same amount as 4 competing civs, you are still benefiting more than 3 remaining civs. This also ignores that it is more likely that you are only giving a bonus to 2 or 3 other civs, given how common it is for natural wonders to spawn next to city-states.

If everyone contributed the exact same amount of production to a WC project then everyone would get the silver bonus. If any civ contributes more, aiming for the 1st place prize, then there will necessarily be at least 1 civ that doesn't reach silver. Generally, 2 civs will contribute most of the production to a WC project, which means that most civs will not reach silver. In my own experience, a breakdown like this is typical, where 2-3 civs will take silver, which means the remaining 5 didn't. The WC proposal specifically encourages you to go after the civs who didn't contribute to your arms race, and you know exactly who they are.

re: the Menin Gate. I like that it is a wonder, but I don't have a strong opinion on what it should do. I really was pushing for the wargames resolution to have a wonder because

• every other WC project has a wonder
  • This means that a winner can further augment their 1st prize with wonder bonuses (WC proposals that boost wonders, goddess of beauty, instant boosts for completing a wonder, etc.)
  • The winner also gets a historic event
  • Like any other WC project wonder, the wargames 1st prize can be conquered and stolen by another player later.
  • It has an icon in your city. A "trophy" for your winning a WC project, if you will. This adds a bit more flavor to the project.
• A wonder is a permanent bonus. I didn't like that the old 1st place prize for Wargames was a massive production investment that only gave you a 20 turn expiring bonus. No permanent bonus made the wargames proposal uniquely forgettable.
• A wonder gives you access to all the building bonuses and tables, opening up all sorts of possibilities for what the Menin Gate can do.

W.r.t. the specific bonuses of the menin gate, They work extremely well for an imperialism player. The extra 11 is the tiny extra push that forts need to be spammable everywhere in combination with the colonialism tenet (21 on forts and citadels). This is the first patch with Menin Gate as a wonder and I didn't expect to get it perfect the first time. However, you can look through this post and see that basically no one was offering ideas for what a wargames wonder should actually do. Now there's a wargames wonder, so maybe people will actually start a conversation for what this wonder needs to do.

• Maybe it just needs bigger numbers? (12, so Colonialism forts get +222?)
• Maybe it could give a promotion to Great Generals, like medic?
• Maybe it should augment defensive buildings in all cities?

I actually appreciate your argument for why the war bonus should be in Silver, but in my experience the breakdown you gave is far from typical. I'm used to the majority of Civs getting a Silver.

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

THe main problems with games (especially in multiplayer) is with the demographic view, you know who will automatically win the Game..... So why would people vote "yes" to a project they know they will loose?

 

[Gidoza]

THe main problems with games (especially in multiplayer) is with the demographic view, you know who will automatically win the Game..... So why would people vote "yes" to a project they know they will loose?

This is actually a very interesting argument. I don't recall whether I've ever seen a Project proposal be opposed in any meaningful way by the AIs - however, if my production sucks, I know that I make an effort to avoid proposing such proposals and will downvote them if they come up seeing as I know I cannot contribute enough production to matter.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Actually you can get surprised by e.g. a Golden Age letting someone overtake you... or more frequently in my case, the AI instant bonus letting it roll over you (e.g. if a wide civ progresses to the next era).

 

[tothePAIN]

You can also get surprised with a world project depending on the number of puppets that you have. Puppets boost empire production and they show up in demographics but they can't be directed to projects.

 

[Gidoza]

So I was considering our previous discussion about Natural Heritage Sites and how one person had suggested bumping the yields to 4 instead of two.

I had another idea.

Seeing as the description does in fact say "every yield", what about adding GAP and Tourism to the yields for it? It will be a buff, it will fulfill the description fully - and then if it needs more, we can discuss a value of 3 or whatever before moving on to 4.

 

[Stalker0]

Spaceflight Regulations is often noted as being fairly weak, especially when you consider the other proposals to counter victory conditions (decolonization for DV, travel ban for CV).

What if you just made it where spaceship parts costs double aluminum?

 

[crdvis16]

Spaceflight Regulations is often noted as being fairly weak, especially when you consider the other proposals to counter victory conditions (decolonization for DV, travel ban for CV).

What if you just made it where spaceship parts costs double aluminum?

Personally, I'm fine with science victory having the weakest counter play in the world congress. To me, science victory is essentially the time victory. You're kinda suppose to win via culture/diplo before science victory can be possible and the way a science vic is achievable is if you find a way to play defense against those other victory conditions long enough to win. Pushing a science victory further out is equivalent to just pushing the game out further than it should really go IMO.

I'm also not sure if aluminum is ever really a limiter to science victory as long as recycling plants exist. At worst you'd have to forego certain military units to ensure you have enough even if they cost double? Maybe it forces you to build them one at a time?

 

[Stalker0]

Something I've noticed a lot with cultural heritage sites. When I select it, pretty much every AI is glad that I did. And then they all vote against it (assuming I'm the WW leader).

The fact that they vote against it makes sense if they don't have a lot of wonders....but then why are they happy to see it in the WC?