+% Gold and +% sci buildings, how to set up a efficient configuration.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I find this abit situational though, and in most situations when I get a great person, I am in no place where a short term advantage can be properly leveraged on. This could be lack of creativity on my part, or simply bad play.

I vote the latter. You're supposed to know when your next GP is going to appear, where it's going to appear, and have a pretty good idea which flavor is most likely. Your plan is supposed to address how to use this asset. If you current plan doesn't have a good fit, then you change the plan....

A good plan has flexibility in case the RNG decides to screw you over on GP flavor.

 

[Utenlok]

I often save priests for building shrines in captured holy cities.

 

[Keilah]

Great Spies... Settled they're rather weak

it makes sense that you think this since you say you don't like espionage economy but believe me, settled Gspies are not weak =D

 

[squall78]

I always try to build every city like my capital (probably a carryover from civ3). I'm noticing from the youtubes that people specialize a wealth city, gp city, and production city. Should I be only building wealth, or military in the crappy cities?

Also with +sci and +gold buildings, how do you determine whether or not to build them to maximize their potential? I feel this indecisiveness is holding me back from moving up.

 

[krikav]

I always try to build every city like my capital (probably a carryover from civ3). I'm noticing from the youtubes that people specialize a wealth city, gp city, and production city. Should I be only building wealth, or military in the crappy cities?

Building wealth if you don't need the military.
Military is a economic sink, and to get the maximum economy possible, you want as little military as you can get away with.

This changes drastically if you do plan to make war soon however, then you should obviously build units.

Also with +sci and +gold buildings, how do you determine whether or not to build them to maximize their potential? I feel this indecisiveness is holding me back from moving up.

I would guess that you are not alone. I have theorycrafted quite abit about these multiplying buildings, and I have yet to reach a conclusion.

but...
The consensus seem to be that you should not build money multiplying buildings in normal circumstances.
You should build markets if you have 2,3 of the happiness resources they provide, and you are in need of happiness.
You should build grocers if you need the health.
You should build 6 banks to be able to build wallstreet.
And also, you should build money multiplying buildings in your empire, if you are a warmongerer and conquear alot of cities, and find your slider close to 0%. In that case, Money multiplying buildings will give you more research than a science multiplying building.

 

[krikav]

it makes sense that you think this since you say you don't like espionage economy but believe me, settled Gspies are not weak =D

I would say that in a espionage economy, settled spies are extremly weak.
Build Scotland Yard instead.

If I am unlucky to get a great spy when I am not running a espionage economy, I usually send them on a espionage mission.

 

[krikav]

I vote the latter. You're supposed to know when your next GP is going to appear, where it's going to appear, and have a pretty good idea which flavor is most likely. Your plan is supposed to address how to use this asset. If you current plan doesn't have a good fit, then you change the plan....

A good plan has flexibility in case the RNG decides to screw you over on GP flavor.

Tell me about it! I got a great scientist at 2% chance last night when I tried out settling merchants.


Your critique is probably at least justified. I do not have adequate control of when my next GP is going to arrive, sometimes I even get suprised by their arrival.
Flexibility is a key word, the sole reason I am looking so deeply into this issue, is because I want greater flexibility.

 

[krikav]

@krikav
In capital the money building usually have by far the largest impact. It's not always possible to run at 100% research, Ais have lots of money early midgame but it tends to be less later on as there are not so many wonders to build. Also as your own empire expands trade deals don't cover all expenses anymore. On top of that happy and health of market/grocer are usually most needed in capital.

It sounds like we are experiencing the same thing:
that you cannot rely soley on failgold/trades/begging/etc to keep your slider at 100%.

The way I think this issue could be solved efficiently, is by having your GPF running merchants, building all money multiplying buildings there, and eventually wallstreet.
While settling some great merchants/prophets there.

This should supply your empire with enough gold, that you can have your slider at 100%, and thus you can focus soley on the +% science buildings in all other cities, further specializing your empire.

Ofcourse the market/grocer might still be needed in capital (and in other commerce cities too) for the happiness-health.

 

[krikav]

Great Priests are usually a good GP to settle, the hammers are nice and so is the gold. But when you will need a golden age, i'd save the Priest for that ofc. But usually, when you get that Priests really early in the game, it's not too bad to settle him directly, for example if you know you'll need that Golden Age in ~80 turns... you should be able to generate another GP for that by then.

Yes, a early priest you get from say, oracle, stonehedge or such is abit painfull to figure out what you should do with.
The early gold and the two extra hammers are nice, but a early golden age to swap into HeraldRule/caste or such smoothly can take priority. I completly agree.

Great Engineers... well, i find myself to often settle GEs as they usually occur late in the game. That's the point where rushbuilding is weak, and so is bulbing. Earlier on, i'd use a GE in 99% of the time for rushbuilding, while the other 1% is to bulb machinery when i x-bow rush with Sitting Bull The other GREAT use for GEs are corporations, ofc. Mining Inc. is sick.

I have not played around much with corprations, I find most games won (or lost, or simply too boring) by that time.
They are not much of a issue, however. You seldom get a great engineer early.

Great Artists are weak settled and for their "special ability", the culture bomb. Best used for golden ages. Ofc, when you're aiming for a cultural win, it's the bomb, but you won't see me going cultural often.

I have settled the great artist from music a couple of times in new cities that just needs a border pop, the extra beaker bonus the settle great artist gives (or is it gold?) is a small small bonus, that still make it favorable compared to the culturebomb in this situation though.

Great Scientists have the best bulbs and are tied for the best special ability with Great Engineers in my eyes, so it's one of those two. But when you're running Representation, settling them will give you 30 BPT in oxford + observatory, so that's sweet as those are hard beakers you'll always get no matter how low your slider is.

Yeah, the bulbs form these fellows can't be ignored, especially bulbing machinery/engineering or simply philosophy. Awesome trade value or rush value.
I do tend to build academies in some secondary commerce city at times too, when the beaker value is equal or close to equal. In the end, the cottages will have matured enough so that the academy is the favorable choice.

Great Spies are great for Espionage Missions... this can easily net you 2-3 major midgame techs for free. Settled they're rather weak, their special building is great for an espionage economy which i rarely use myself. I'd rather not settle them and use them for a GA.

Same, SY in espionage economy, or espionage mission if I am unlucky to get them in a regular game.
Don't think you can run a GA with these fellows, right?

Great Merchants are the second worst GP to settle, their great strength are trade missions. Let's you fly through the midgame techs. Also, they're great for the best corporation in the game, Sid's Sushi, so it's worth holding on.

Now, I want to make a argument for settling great merchants.

If you have:
* Slider at say 80%.
* A commerce city with oxford, academy, library and univ.
* A city with with market, grocer, bank and wallstreet.

Settling the great merchant in your moneytown, will multiply the gold he generates (6) by 3!
Netting you 18 gold points per turn.
Those 18 gold points per turn doesn't have to be covered by your cottage city anymore now. So the cottage city have 18 additional commerce points that can be allocated toward research.
Since the commerce city has oxford, academy, etc. Those 18 commerce will be transformed into 54 beakers per turn.

Now, this is a extreme example, and the accual return will be abit less if there is allready market/grocer etc in your commerce cities. And other factors might also play a role.
But I hope that I have at least somewhat shown the potential strength of a settled merchant.

 

[Keilah]

I would say that in a espionage economy, settled spies are extremly weak.
Build Scotland Yard instead.

If I am unlucky to get a great spy when I am not running a espionage economy, I usually send them on a espionage mission.

if you get your gspy from the great wall and are PHI, settle the first and build SY with the second. If you are not PHI you may wish to produce only one great spy ever in which case build scotland yard.

 

[krikav]

if you get your gspy from the great wall and are PHI, settle the first and build SY with the second. If you are not PHI you may wish to produce only one great spy ever in which case build scotland yard.

That might be how you play, but I would probably end up building two scotland yards, in different cities.

The first settled spy might be a quick early boost, but it will be sub-par for most of the period where espionage really shines.

 

[squall78]

I would guess that you are not alone. I have theorycrafted quite abit about these multiplying buildings, and I have yet to reach a conclusion.

but...
The consensus seem to be that you should not build money multiplying buildings in normal circumstances.
You should build markets if you have 2,3 of the happiness resources they provide, and you are in need of happiness.
You should build grocers if you need the health.
You should build 6 banks to be able to build wallstreet.
And also, you should build money multiplying buildings in your empire, if you are a warmongerer and conquear alot of cities, and find your slider close to 0%. In that case, Money multiplying buildings will give you more research than a science multiplying building.

I think I have to get used to the idea of maxing key cities, and not trying to turn every city into a metropolis. Basically what you said with banks for wall street, and I would add unis for oxford. TBH when I start getting factories and all those fun buildings I automate as the game has already been decided in my favor.

Happiness and health I tier according to what building gives me the most return, as with every decision in the game.

 

[Keilah]

krikav:
in your opinion, which period is that?

 

[krikav]

I think I have to get used to the idea of maxing key cities, and not trying to turn every city into a metropolis. Basically what you said with banks for wall street, and I would add unis for oxford. TBH when I start getting factories and all those fun buildings I automate as the game has already been decided in my favor.

Happiness and health I tier according to what building gives me the most return, as with every decision in the game.

I had major issues with this as well, I wanted perfect cities.
I played a game with "cold" settings, which forced me to settle a whole lot of bad cities in the tundra/snow, and I think this helped me to get out of the mindset/desire for perfect megacities.

Also playing without creative helps, since you need to look at the small 3x3 box, instead of the fat cross. You are making sub-optimal cities all the time, since speed is of more importance.

I would not place wallstreet and oxford in the same city, unless there is something really unusuall going on.
If you run with a high science slider, I say oxford belongs in a high commerce city, probably your beauro-cap.
Wallstreet belongs in a shrine/mercant-specialist city.

If you place the two together, you are not using them both to their fullest potential.

 

[krikav]

krikav:
in your opinion, which period is that?

Well, I find that espionage really kicks in, once you have enough hammer cities to build adequate number of spies.
And when you have some cities with decent commerce.
And perhaps when you start to have some other espionage-point multipliers, (castles/jails).
Somewhere around nationalism?

Building SY is the long-term profitable solution.
Doing a espionage mission is a short-term profitable solution.

I find that settling the spy, is somewhere inbetween, a sub-optimal compromise.

 

[Keilah]

in my experience:
by the time i get nationalism the game is boring/effectively over. Obviously personal taste here ^^

you get a Gspy around t70 (PHI) and have a few spies ready to rock maybe 10-20 turns later. Usually by then you have enough EP to steal the most expensive tech and trade it around to get most of the others, and a few turns later you can steal whatever is left. Shortly after that you get scotland yard and turn on the espionage slider at which point you get every tech in the world as soon as someone else researches it.

So, IMO
-an espionage mission in the early game gives you little more than settling would, since settling gives you enough to steal all you need.
-a second SY is needless overkill since a single good espionage city is all you need. Better to get another production city or a GP farm for scientist bulbs / merchants.

based on normal speed, standard size, espionage economy and immortal difficulty

 

[ahcos]

From what i've experienced, i'd send Spies for Espionage Missions or build SY when playing a EE, but not settle them.. OTOH i've played maybe 3-4 times a EE on IMM/Deity, so that hardly counts.

 

[Celebithil]

Nobody here seems to suggest the obvious alternative to having a high (science) slider and getting gold running merchants in a GP farm and building wealth.

You can also try and run a low (science) slider game; build banks, grocers and marketplaces everywhere, and have a GP farm with scientists (giving you your science), and building research if wanted.

While a library is the cheapest commerce multiplier in the game, a twice as expensive bank has a double bonus, so it is almost as efficient. Markets and Grocers are as expensive as observatories and cheaper than universities and laboratories. You can also get all your gold multipliers before the science multipliers (especially the laboratory).

The biggest detriment is probably the growth option: Without further territorial acquisitions, you can usually raise the science slider over time, thereby making your empire less efficient as opposed to more efficient in a "high science slider, build wealth" empire. But it is certainly a viable alternative, which is fun to try once in a while (or switch to after overexpansion).

 

[krikav]

Nobody here seems to suggest the obvious alternative to having a high (science) slider and getting gold running merchants in a GP farm and building wealth.

I thought I suggested very only just the thing you are saying lacking.
I want to thank you for your contibution on this topic, this is sort of the conversation I was hoping for.

You can also try and run a low (science) slider game; build banks, grocers and marketplaces everywhere, and have a GP farm with scientists (giving you your science), and building research if wanted.

While a library is the cheapest commerce multiplier in the game, a twice as expensive bank has a double bonus, so it is almost as efficient. Markets and Grocers are as expensive as observatories and cheaper than universities and laboratories. You can also get all your gold multipliers before the science multipliers (especially the laboratory).

The biggest detriment is probably the growth option: Without further territorial acquisitions, you can usually raise the science slider over time, thereby making your empire less efficient as opposed to more efficient in a "high science slider, build wealth" empire. But it is certainly a viable alternative, which is fun to try once in a while (or switch to after overexpansion).

Yes, if one wants to have the entire empire sustained on gold +% buildings, one have to play a ultra expansive game, possibly conquering everything.

In such a game style, we want at least one GPF set on running scientists, building oxford there.
But also we might want more science cities.

I have not managed to play such a game, since in my experience (seem to be simmilar to yours) the science slider often move close to 100%.


One big advantage with +% gold buildings, is that you can build them all, where you need a Gscientist to settle the academy to be at a comparable level.

 

[Dazie]

Great Spies are great for Espionage Missions... this can easily net you 2-3 major midgame techs for free. Settled they're rather weak, their special building is great for an espionage economy which i rarely use myself. I'd rather not settle them and use them for a GA

I disagree. If you pop a GS early, and settle them, you'll see a HUGE benefit all game. I'm playing a game as the romans (Julius) where I butil the GW, and settled the first GS, then beelined for alphabet and CoL. After reaching CoL i didn't haev to turn on the research slider again until later in the game, when I'd stolen all there ws to steal.

Madscientist did an RPC as Peter the great that shows the power of settled great spies.

I'd urge you to read it.