Good Elves-No Druids

[Celenduil]

Then maybe the solution is to make the druid a FoL disciple unit, and then, have some sort of variant, depending on what religion one has.

I don't know what those could be, but I'm just throwing ideas out here:

AV: Could have demonologists that specialize in hell terrain
OO: Something to do with oceans... don't know what they'd be called
FoL: Druids
RoK: Dwarven Druids
Emp: Desert wanderer or something
Order: Not sure... Law Keeper?
Esus: Something to do with the shadows

Anyways, as it's been stated, being neutral doesn't mean you revere nature, so maybe if each religion had some kind of disciple unit that specialized in improving the environments that each different religion prefers/reveres/creates or whatever, that would make more sense.

 

[Ekolite]

Love that idea! I've always *really* hated the Paladin-Druid-Eidolon thing, something like this would be great although something would have to be done to differenciate these from the religion's high priests and possibly to bring these on par with the current paladins etc. Of course, they don't all have to be spell casters. Esus could have a unit that could ferry gold from another civ's treasury to you when placed in one of their cities as well as doing all the esus recon ''spells' etc.

Paladins and eidolons could be moved to upgrades for Champions, only available to good and evil civs, respectively. This could provide some incentive not to turn neutral.

 

[kenken244]

Paladins and eidolons are already upgrades for champions and they do require their respective aalignment

 

[Fenboy]

Let's note that this entire discussion is " I really wish it was easier to get Druids". This supports what I've been saying that paladins/eidolons suck comparatively when held up against druids.

It was true in the last thread and its still true now. I like the "Paladin-Druid-Eidolon thing". It gives a clear benefit to alignment besides religion.

 

[Ringtailed]

I don't think Neutral players should necessarily get a bonus for being neutral. As that quote notes, druids are generally the best of the alignment units. If anything, Neutrals should get the weakest units to encourage people to take a stand and become good or evil.

 

[Ecofarm]

The best druids in the game are balseraph (evil) and the AI gets empy early. Dwarven druids are second best.

To get neutral from good, just grab OO to get neutral and enjoy the extra happy from the temple.

Or, try unrestricted leaders. As long as you set the AIs to be good combos, there's little downside.

 

[Alzara]

So maybe druids should be toned down a little if they are far better than paladins/eidolons?

Al

 

[xienwolf]

NO! Paladins and Eidolons should be toned up if anything!

wise, the druids aren't so hot unless you devote yourself to the Affinity. So Paladin & Eidolon beat them there, hands down. As is intended.

Main thing that makes Druids so much better though is that they have a use OUTSIDE of war. Many people spend most of the game at peace (blitzkrieg wars if any), so that is a huge selling point. Now of course once your empire is all Vitalized to your heart's content, THEN they are nearly useless.

Grant Paladins the ability to cast Unyielding Order or some healing spells and Eidolons Fear would be a decent touch. Though only one of those 3 has non-war functionality, so it remains mostly in the same dilema as presently faced.

I'd honestly love to see some of the less used flags that are available in for Units utilized to make the other 2 more attractive. You could set a Paladin to provide massive Culture Protection and immunity to revolt (thus you can put him in a small border town and not worry about culture push). Eidolons could be set to be capable of attacking (and being attacked by) opponents without declaring war (like HN, but without hiding who owns it, and unable to be "turned off"), and have a large chance of making slaves, plus maybe generating from each combat.

Those 2 would make them a bit mroe interesting. Though granted the Paladin option is probably not quite as "cool" as the other two units still.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still think that Druids should be available regardless of alignment (or, using Broader Alignments, simply have their alignment restrictions not be exactly on the cut-off between neutral and good/evil), and that individual spells should have alignment restrictions too. It might be good to nerf their base strength even more. Also, the Good and Evil religions priests should not be able to upgrade to Druids. Having their priest spells (like ring of fire) and free promotions (like water walking) carry over is too strong, and unthematic.


I'm not so sure that Paladins should have such spells. For one, Unyielding Order is an Order only spell, and Rok, Empyrean, and FoL civs can have Paladin's too. You could just give then channeling III to let them use the appropriate priest spells, but I don't really think these units should be casters. They are the most directly military disciple. Letting them protect against revolt sounds good. Would it be too much if they had affinity for good mana types (Law, Spirit, Sun?)


Making Eidola be Always Hostile could be really cool. As demons, they can get fear anyway so I'm not sure if that is needed as a free promotion. Since Eidolon is Greek for Shadow, I'm thinking some stealth abilities could be cool. Making them be always hostile but giving them stealth (letting you turn them invisible/hidden, and so saving them from being attacked when injured) could be really cool. Perhaps they could also cast defile, or even autocast it every turn. Would giving them Death/Entropy/Shadow affinity be too much?

 

[Tarquelne]

I like the ideas about tuning Druid magic to match religion and making them more widely available, and given my mod of course I like the idea that each religion has it's own P/E/D version. But, if we're only going to have 3 units - a Good one, an Evil one, and a Neutral one - then I think the present system is fine.

In my experience what people miss about Druids when they play Good or Evil is primarily the unit's "coolness". They're fun in peacetime, they're fun in wartime, they can do a lot and do it in interesting ways. Paladins and Eidolons are just high-strength combat units. Nice, but not very colorful. I think that's the problem: Compared to Druids Paladins and Eidolons can be boring.

So I'm all for the idea of making Paladins and Eidolon's "cooler", yet I don't think there's good reason to make them more powerful:

I find that Good and Evil often have an easier time diplomatically, each have a very good way to cope with Hell Terrain (though Evil's is AV specific), and - given how decisive war is in Civ4 - Paladin and Eidolon combat strength is quite useful.


Here's another idea for what to do with the units: Keep the basic Paladin, Druid, Eidolon mechanic, but create civ-UU versions that add a civ-specific twist. Since that keeps G-N-E as the determiner I think that's closer to the present design, but still adds interest.

So maybe the Elven Paladins pick up an interesting Nature spell or two but are still basically Paladins. They primarily whack things with swords. And their Eidolons are replaced by demon-possessed trees. (Treants with perhaps just a visual twist.) So, still demons, still narrowly-focused combat-monsters.

Dwarven Pals and Eidolons get metal weapon upgrades? Adjust the strength so they're not as good with just Iron but better with Mithril?

Lanun's get Boarding?

That sort of thing...

Oh yeah... re the previous two posts:

I agree with MC.'s objection to Unyielding Order, but I do like the Cultural Garrison suggestion. And love the defile or autocast defile for Eidolons. For me that alone might make Eidolons as "cool" as Druids. (I didn't want to alter Eidolons in "Holy Warriors" more than necessary... but so tempting...)

 

[Alzara]

I agree entirely that the present good-neutral-evil paladin-druid-eidolon system is a good one, which provides choice based on alignment.

Making Paladins and Eidolons better would be more interesting than nerfing the Druid when I think about it

Making Eidolons HN without the actual hidden part would be very interesting!

I like the idea of having UU versions of these units for each civ, but this would require a LOT of UUs.

Appeal to Kael: Make the Eidolons and Paladins better

Al

 

[Fenboy]

Here's another idea for what to do with the units: Keep the basic Paladin, Druid, Eidolon mechanic, but create civ-UU versions that add a civ-specific twist. Since that keeps G-N-E as the determiner I think that's closer to the present design, but still adds interest.
That sort of thing...

Nice idea there. The only problem besides what Alzara mentioned is that, as Tier 4 units Paladins, Druids & Eidolons won't get unique graphics until Tiers 1-3 are mostly completed, which could be quite a while.

I'd favour limiting the UUs to civs that start with that alignment (UU Druids for Amurites, Grigori, Hippus, Khazad, Lanun, Ljosalfar & Sidar, for example). You might want to add the Clan of Embers' Lizardman Druid to that.

Edit: Oh, and I love the idea of Eidolons autocasting Defile. It'd make opening borders with evil civs far more risky than now. Perhaps Paladins could autocast a weakened Sanctify?

 

[Tarquelne]

Nice idea there. The only problem besides what Alzara mentioned is that, as Tier 4 units Paladins, Druids & Eidolons won't get unique graphics until Tiers 1-3 are mostly completed, which could be quite a while.

I was thinking those interested would do it themselves. In most cases I find modding esier than either waiting or trying to convince the busy mod team to do what I want.

Not the modeling, but so long as you use pre-existing models and spells the hardest part of making new units is applying the "color replace" function of a free bitmap program. I think simple gimmicks like changing the size and # of models displayed make a big difference, too.

Modular mods would work. You'd probably have to use an often-incompatible civilizationsinfos file, but merging that file is easy.

I'm happy with a per-religion division rather than per-civ (so I'm covered by an existing mod) and don't really count as "interested". But I'd be willing to contribute at a few units toward a package. (At least the Lj. Paladin and Eidolon) I could also post very-slightly altered files from another mod that'd be good modular-mod templates.

Anybody else? A thread could be started in the "Maps & Scenarios" sub-forum.

I'd favour limiting the UUs to civs that start with that alignment (UU Druids for Amurites, Grigori, Hippus, Khazad, Lanun, Ljosalfar & Sidar, for example). You might want to add the Clan of Embers' Lizardman Druid to that.

And of course if you do it yourself you get what you want. I wouldn't make UU druids for any of those, for example.

 

[Ecofarm]

Unless they are balseraph (domination) or dwarven (crush) druids suck. Yvain can vitalize.

 

[rusty217]

Unless they are balseraph (domination) or dwarven (crush) druids suck. Yvain can vitalize.

Maybe Yvain can vitalize but if you have a large empire then it would take him along time by himself...

And it is more thematically correct for nature loving tree huggers to get druids rather than demon slaying paladins....