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GOTM-04 Final spoiler - everything else!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by ainwood, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. Jove

    Jove Not Lacking Altitude

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    This was my first Emporer game ever, and I thought I'd get trounced worse than I did. My big mistake was in misjudging how fast Alex would grow... I could have either claimed all those forests myself, or taken them by force. Instead, I was left with the marginal tundra to the south, and whatever I could get picking away at Alex and Izzy through the game.
    I simply got behind and stayed behind. Victoria launched the ship in 1979... I'm glad I survived that long, there was never an option to attack anyone after a certain point. 5849 points, leadership skills of Neville Chamberlain. hmpf.

    I noticed in the game replay that at 4000BC I show a session 2 and 3 starting. My game last month wasn't accepted because of this (I didn't cheat, but understandable), but I'm pretty sure this month that I didn't open the start file twice... Could moving the file register it with another session :confused: I haven't submitted, I don't want to get another entry rejected.
     
  2. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    We ignore the first couple of reloads. The start file always has them for Ainwood to set it up. Then there's the one you use to start the game.
     
  3. socralynnek

    socralynnek Civ & Hattrick addict

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    I decided very early to go for a cultural victory as I hoped it would take less RL time (had two incomplete submissions before, due to lack of time)

    I founded Taoism and spread it to Alex, which made him nice to me.
    Isabella declared war on me twice but didn't do much damage.
    But when Hatshepsut declared on me while I was at war with Isabella and immediately send a stack when my other stack was just recovering from wiping out a Spanish stack, I lost many units and I was close to losing my capital.

    Maybe if I had build more units before, I could have taken some spanish cities as they were slightly backward, or some cities of Alex but he was a buffer for me.

    But when Vicky took some Greek cities in a few turns, I decided to join Alex and captured the former Greek cities (even gave back 2 cities to Alex)
    But when Hatti send a stack to go after Alex and finally destroyed him, at least I had coal then.

    After that I defended my border cities and raised the luxury slider.
    Vicky was 4 parts away from SS, when my third city finally reached legendary status.

    If I had known before I'd manage to be tech leader at some point, maybe I would have gone a different way. But at least I was done in time this month...

    I was a little bit unlucky with GP as I only got 2 artists to join my third city.
    Score 7683
     
  4. Jove

    Jove Not Lacking Altitude

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    AlahnH: So, I should expect session 2 AND 3 at the beginning of every GOTM file?
     
  5. jar2574

    jar2574 Prince

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    The variety of end dates is interesting. Some people got beat by spaceships in the 20th century. Looks like a few people won after 2000.

    Interesting. I wonder what the role of religion played in those games with later wins, and whether the AIs did not trade as much due to religious animosity.
     
  6. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    We'll have to ask ainwood if that's universally true, as I don't know the process for producing the start saves. Ainwood starts the first session to create the file, there seems to be a second session, and then you start session 3 when you load up. Don't know what causes the second one, but it always seems to be there.
     
  7. Jove

    Jove Not Lacking Altitude

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    Ok, I'll quit being paranoid about it then and submit my (lousy) results later.
     
  8. A'AbarachAmadan

    A'AbarachAmadan Deity

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    Location:
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    Goal: Fastest Domination
    Win date: 960AD
    Score: 182576

    Wanted to say thanks to those who posted the practice maps; very helpful in devising a strategy. Also, thanks to Ainwood for getting up last months results before I finished playing the practice maps, which gave me some ideas on how to move quicker.

    Initial Plan: Start with some warriors to learn the layout of the land as quickly as possible. My plan will depend upon whether I could get enough tiles on my start continent. I planned on building The Oracle and maybe Stonehenge. Planned on at least getting to knights, but mostly via trades and conquests. Practice maps led me to believe I shouldn’t have to worry about barbarians entering my territory until around 1500BC. I didn’t play test what happens if you run out of money, so I decide I don’t want to do that; I ran a loss at 100% gold for most of the game, but never went into the red; need to test that to see if it is a viable strategy.

    The beginning (4000BC-2120BC)
    Settle in place and move the warrior to the NW since it appears we are near the bottom of the map. Second warrior will go W along the bottom. After finding the Greeks so close my third warrior goes worker hunting and steals one, though it does cost him his life. I play with Delhi tiles worked so that I put more into research after getting fishing (for example, set it up that 2d warrior would be build at exact same time as I reached size 2 so that when I switched to Settler I wouldn’t ‘waste’ any food, but get extra commerce in the lake) Decide to play conservative and go for The Oracle as quickly as possible, using it for Alphabet slingshot.

    Events: W2->L2 (3520), W1-GH,38g (3480), Buddhism somewhere (3440), W1-GH, masonry (3320), Hinduism me (3160), W3->worker from Greece (3000), W2->L3 (2920), W1-GH,70g (2920), Judaism somewhere (2760), W1-L3 (2240), switch to slavery (2120)
    Meet the neighbors: Greece (3680), England (3040), Arabia (2440), France (2160)
    Research: Fishing (3680), Masonry (3320-GH), Polytheism (3160) – get religion; Priesthood (2840); Writing (2360); Alphabet (2120-The Oracle); stopped research until HR became available
    Delhi: Warrior (3800), Warrior (3560), Settler (2880), Workboat (2560), Warrior(?), Workboat (2120)
    Bombay(2800BC): The Oracle (2120)

    Early era (2120BC-725BC)
    During this era I first decide that Stonehenge is still possible and get it; I get some defenses out to discourage barbarians. I decide that Alex must fall before he gets copper or iron. I know where England’s resources are, so I think I can take them out. Vic doesn’t have any. Decide to use combination of Horse Archers, Swordsmen and Axemen. I have lots of things built very close in time to each other due to chopping, chopping and more chopping. Used slavery on a limited basis.

    Events: 1840- end of Westward exploration, try to find other neighbors; 1800- adopt a religion; 1360- lots of barbs in the south; 825- down to Vic and Sal for open borders
    Trade time: 2120- Louis (Agriculture+Wheel); Saladin (BW+Hunting); 2080-Victoria (AH+Pot); 2000- Saladin (Archery); 1600- Hat (Meditation); 1400 – Victoria (IW+Sailing, but give away Alphabet+Meditation); 1360- Horseback Riding via research
    Meet the rest of the neighbors: Spain (1720) – darn, hoping there was only barbs over there; Egypt (1600)
    Delhi: Worker(1920), Barracks(1640), Archer(1520), Axeman(1400), Temple(1360), Settler(1120), Swordsman(975); Worker(950), Swordsman(875), Kashi Vish(875-great prophet), Swordsman(850)
    Bombay: Stonehenge(1480), Barracks(1200), Archer(1120), Swordsman(975), Swordsman(900), GP(900), Swordsman(800)
    Madras (1000BC): nothing this era

    War vs. Greece [4 known cities] 725BC-475BC
    Start off with 6 Sword & 1 HA heading NW and 1 Axe south to capture a worker
    Science dropping from 50%->30% due to economy
    700BC destroy Corinth (size 1)
    675BC Saladin cancels open borders
    650BC lost warrior in northern area
    625BC Capture Athens (150g); lose Sword, but go to 100% science
    500BC Capture Sparta (115g); lose Sword
    475BC Capture Thermoplae (?g)
    Greeks no more!!

    Short peace 475BC-250BC
    At some point I decide Colossus and Great Lighthouse would be very beneficial to me to keep me out of negative money ‘in the bank’. In 350BC find out Isa, Hat and Vic are largest. Vic is also the most advanced and only one I have Open Borders with, so I can get to their mines easily. Isa still has no iron/copper so I assume Ainwood must have been nice enough not to give them any at all. Based upon these facts and assumptions I decide Vic must be destroyed next with my full force. This was a major strategic mistake; I should have taken Vic out first.

    Research: Monarchy (500- trade Hap), Math (400-trade Vic), Metal Casting (400) – go to 100% gold;
    Delhi: HA(650,575,475), Axe(425,375), Forge(275), Colossus(125), Galley(75,50,1AD)
    Bombay: HA(700,650), Sword(575,550,475,450,400), Forge(300), HA(275,250,200,175), Sw(150,125), HA(100), Axe(75,25,1AD)
    Madras: Work Boat(675), Barracks(375), Forge(200)
    Athens: Settler(425), Barracks(225), Forge(150), Archer(75,25,1AD)
    Bangalor(375BC): Lighthouse(275), Great Lighthouse (150), Workboat(50,25)

    War vs England 250BC-1AD; 250AD-300AD
    250BC destroy iron mine, advance on Nottingham & York; they have a copper mine, but I’ll capture that city in one turn
    225BC Capture York & Nottingham (lose Axe and Sword)
    100BC Capture London (lose Sword and HA)
    100BC near Hastings (lose Sword and HA)
    050BC Capture Canterbury
    1AD Peace for Currency + Monotheism; have 16.97% of land; again, worried about money so Currency was nice
    Also during this time I find out that the evil barbarians have built 2 cities in the north on hilltops and already have walls. Decide I don’t want to mess with them if at all possible (though I do take them out near the end of the game). I’ve also changed religions at least once to keep enemies happier.
    300AD Capture Hastings
    England no more!

    War vs. Spain 50AD-300AD; 540AD-820AD
    Again, waiting to attack Spain was my biggest strategic blunder. I assumed their Copper and Iron must be non-existent; and later when I realized they had some I thought it must very limited and on the fringe that I could take it out quick. Very wrong, as it was well protected in the north. I was so good at other early exploration, but never explored their area. I remember going after Barcelona with 15 military while it had axemen, spearmen and archers AND walls - VERY nasty combination; same combo in Madrid.
    075AD Madrid (lost HA)
    175AD Cordoba (lost Sword)
    225AD Satiago (no losses!)
    350AD Barbarian City Angle (lost HA) – swag that I can win after taking out Spain
    540AD Valencia (destroyed)
    600AD Barcelona (lost HAx2, Sword, not to mention the seriously wounded!!)
    660AD Madrid (lost HAx3, Sword; nothing like watching level 5 units get slaughtered on the walls of a city :( ; I think the formula may be off as it should have been 60% for culture + 50% for walls, but only listed 60% defense)
    Up to 820AD missed times, but Toledo, Salamanca, Murcia; in about 820AD switch back to lowest cost Civics

    Other notes: 350AD, get Great Prophet, take Theology – switch to Theocracy & Hinduism; 425AD capture Yayoi; 600AD get 37g from the last GH; 630AD – at 31.64% of land; 760AD – start city spam (definitely could have gotten more points starting this earlier and may have gotten an earlier victory, but I was scared of my money situation); around 800AD in very north of main continent destroyed the last barb city so I could build two other cities that would expand quicker; also at end built the Hanging Gardens for both points & to ensure my population stayed high enough; on last turn I discovered Literature since I had the money to do so – other than the last turn my science had been at 0% since 400BC with the occasional increase of luxuries for happiness. In the end I jumped well over the 64% required land required, so I think I could have won a little quicker by not waiting to do all the city builds simultaneously.

    The funny thing about getting Domination at this point is that I think it would be difficult to continue on to a Conquest victory. I’m behind it tech and getting close to running out of money. Of course, I wouldn’t have built all those costly cities if I were going that route, but I find it interesting that to get in a winning position it would actually hurt my capability to continue down other paths in post victory play.
     
  9. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    Domo arigato, A'AbarachAmadan.
    Nicely done. Your writeup makes my head spin. You didn't produce a Worker before 200BC!! You beelined to Writing through Priesthood and did an Alphabet slingshot!! You didn't bother to research Hunting or AH even if they were the worker techs needed!!
    I had never thought of any of these. I have to seriously practice your ideas and incorporate them to my gameplay.
    What a great opportunity to learn new ideas the GOTM is!
     
  10. Memphus

    Memphus Deity

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    Contender Class
    Domination Win: 1680 A.D. (not so fast :( )
    Base: 4632
    Final: 95790

    I'll write A full spoiler later, but I need to get away from this game for awhile since I am pretty :mad:

    I counted 10 very large mistakes I made which resulted in my poor perforamce this month.

    Needless to say it took me over 600 years to discover drama :sad:
     
  11. Memphus

    Memphus Deity

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    Well this was mistake #1 (of 10 :( ) I had completly wiped alex out by 1AD and continued warring with victoria until I had 8 cities at 1AD = VERY BAD, it took me approximately 800 years to recover :eek:
     
  12. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Ooooh good point. I wasn't intending to play right through to win or lose, I was more interested in the challenge of seeing if I can rescue a bankrupt economy. Once I'd done that, I played on enough to make sure the game was going OK then carried on a little bit, destroyed the Greeks, declared war on Victoria, then decided I'd achieved what I wanted to do, and left it. So I have a partial write-up on how I rescued the economy (which took about 10-20 turns)

    I'd agree with that assessment. And huge thanks to Aviator for letting me try his game - I definitely enjoyed it :) Here's what I did ...

    Immediately:
    1. Changed research to Sailing, to be followed by pottery, (It was on agriculture - but all that does is let you build farms, but with most of the cities at max population/happiness you don't need farms. Rather, you need techs to let you get more gold/turn. That means sailing then pottery.)

    2. I put science back up to 100%. There's 204 gold in the bank - that's enough to get sailing and more before science gets forced down to 0% again. (Actually it turned out it was enough to get sailing AND pottery with the gold from capturing a barb city. )

    3. Unit support costs were 3gold/turn. I dealt with that by moving units back into Indian territory (prob left over from the war). The only ones I didn't return were two axemen that I kept positioned to capture a barb city to the North.

    4. I killed a scout that Delhi was producing. That'll only add to unit maintenance costs, and I also started returning a workboat that was exploring South of Spain back home (tempting to explore with a workboat but it'll get massacred the moment it sees a barb and there's fishing nets etc. waiting to be built.) Right now I don't think exploring is a priority for this civ - rebuilding the economy is the priority.

    5. I rejigged the production on most cities to emphasize commerce. The only exception was a couple of cities were nearly complete on llibraries - I kept production up on those till the libraries were done.

    6. There was a settler looking about to found an extra city you to the South -the same position a lot of people founded a city, in the middle of ice, but with silver and lots of other resources. I went ahead and founded the city - I judged that the need for that silver to allow the existing cities to grow 1 more outweighed the immediate cost to the economy, even with the economy in the state it was in.

    A few turns later:
    7. I captured the barb city to the North, by waiting until AI attacks had knocked its defences down to 1 archer, then moving my two axemen in - it's in a good position with access to luxury resources, too good to miss.

    8. I chopped to help build a library in Madras.

    9. As libraries were built I put scientists in cities to keep the science up because the economy was going to go back to 0% science soon. The goal here is to get alphabet before the science goes totally broke so we can start trading. I'm even starving a couple of cities for the scientists - doesn't really matter for now as they are unhappy anyway.
    10. I tried to avoid building more units whereever possible - you do need them for defence but science is a priority right now and we're paying a lot of gold in unit maintenance.

    11. I also start building cottages as soon as pottery is researched.

    I actually hit a point where I have to take science back to 0% as there's no more gold, but thanks to the scientists, alphabet will still get discovered in 11 turns. I just about manage to avoid disbanding any units, though I kept that in the back of my mind as an option.

    ----------

    OK that's the point where I stopped taking detailed notes. I carried on a bit longer for the fun of it. Alphabet allowed me to trade quite a few techs, though on balance still left me way behind the tech leaders, and I then beelined for calendar so I could get gold from the silk and dyes. By this point city growth and cottages had allowed me to bring science back up to 20-30% while breaking even. I decided, rather than do more economy-building, that it'd be best to try and take out Alex totally, rather than sit with a very long and very wiggly border with an enemy who hated my guts. So I destroyed him with axemen and swordsmen fairly easily. At that point I now had an empire of I think ~ 8 cities, basically stretching up the East coast of the continent and just taking in the ivory on the North Coast. I would've held still, and focussed on getting my economy in better shape, and tried to make friends with Victoria, who was obviously more powerful than me. Unfortunately Victoria forced my hand: She released a culture bomb right next to the ivory, which instantly lost me all the ivory, and would, in a couple of turns, almost certainly lose me the nearby city I'd nabbed off Alex. (Incredibly clever tactic for the AI, I was impressed!) Victoria was way ahead of me in techs - her first knight had just appeared, and elephants were the only thing I had that could possibly hold her off if she turned nasty - I wasn't even anywhere near macemen.

    What to do....? I declared war immediately and within about three turns had her 4K-culture city razed and my ivory back. As I started to mass-produce elephants her rather disorganized counter-attacks started appearing. From experience I'd say I was heading into a war of attrition in which no cities would change hands for ages, silly AI tactics would cause Victoria to lose a huge number of units, and eventually I'd have enough elephants and cats to take one of her cities, at which point I'd sue for peace and have yet another shattered economy to rebuild :crazyeye:

    And - like I say, I'd done what I wanted to do with this game, I didn't have another spare 3 hours to spend on my war with Vicky, so I've left it there. May get back to it this week if I have time - it was turning into a very interesting game. Obviously won't and can't submit it even if we weren't past the deadline, because it's not my game.
     
  13. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    @ Thrallia and DynamicSpirit: Thanks for those write-ups. Although I don't play this game, I'm guessing they may be very helpful for new players struggling with the economics challenges of Civ4, which seem to be a bugbear for a lot of players.
     
  14. Memphus

    Memphus Deity

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    Ok Time to post a semi write up on what I did wrong, and what I did right:
    ten of each to make it fun (something needs to be after that pain)

    Ten things not to do
    1. Miss the Oracle which was built in 1400AD by 2 turns
    2. Not run Over Isabella when you had a tech lead (See 3 on the things to do)
    3. Miss Music by 1 turn (Really needed that artist)
    4. Let your economy go off the deep end, by thinking your on Monarch 9 Cities, 0% science 45GP @ -21/turn = VERY BAD
    5. Fight With Swordsmen agaisn't longbow fortified cities, (yeah no tech rate = no construction = no catapults)
    --this was done until after 1000AD :eek:
    6. Take 640 years to figure out drama (A.K.A the dark ages)
    7. Piss off all your trading partners (one oponent unmet see 5 on thigns to do)
    8. Go to war with Alexander 5 times, Elizabeth 4 times, Spanish, 5 times and France 2 times
    9. Not change civics enough (no anarchy)
    10. My favorite, miss calculate my border expansion 1 turn too soon, and go over the domination limit :mad: The next turn/two I Was poised to
    a) get liberalism, go to free religion trade ~4 techs
    b) take over three more LARGE cities
    c) result on final game score ~10-15K

    Ten things to do:
    1. Use your second GL (prophet) (first was scientist) to slingshot to CS in 450 BC (drawback didn't get masonry for a long time = no marble
    2. Build the GL in 225B.C.
    3. Settle the third city on Isabella's Island.
    4. Sue Alexander for 4 technologies :lol:
    5. Meet Hathesput, change civics to Monarchy, make her happy (even with oposing religions and get a trading partner)
    5. Make Delhi into a GP factory and a powerhouse city
    6. Get Calvary and Wage war like I did in GOTM3 (steam roll)
    7. Found 3 cities on the south east island for over 5% of the world :evil:
    --this was after my economy was out of the tank
    8. Get Cavalry (First Game I have used them since my inital month burst)
    9. Establish Military Dominance ~1000AD and Ask for tribute every 10 Turns
    (Probably worked out to a net gold of ~3000GP)
    10. Remember it's just a game of 0 and 1, no sense getting all worked up :lol:

    But overall this game to a lot longer for me than a regular Normal speed game (over 14 hours) but that could be attributed to a couple of factors.
    1. I played hard at the beggining of the month, (every day ~1 hour) until my economy hit the tank then got sad :(
    2. Took a 3 week break for RL (my longest break of any civ for a long time)
    3. Came back to redeem myself only to sit down on day two (day one was getting out of the economic disater) figure out my attack plan, execute one turn and have the power get shut off :mad: (luckily I had autosave for everyturn, but still it looks funny on my replay to see Session 10 840AD, Session 11 860AD :lol:
    4. Finally got my grove on in the last couple of sessions and began playing my game and obilterated Saladin and Was a on a run To Make a mokery of the French and the Spanish

    In any event through all my trials and tribulations I had a great time, the only real disapointment was my miscalculation at the end game that was a bad math error for a nerd :blush:
    Thanks for all the great write ups as usual, I'm still waiting on a couple more :D


    A'AbarachAmadan Great game, that is the balance I wanted :goodjob:

    Wow I need a detox before this month, A retribution maybe I'll try and Oracle Slingshot to Liberalism ;)

    Cheers Memphus
     
  15. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    I'm curious to know if anyone has ever not researched IW until ~1000AD and still managed to be the first civ to liberalism on emperor. I'm not sure why I was never attacked during my 1500 year long dark age, I only know that Islam was founded before I even knew what that hard, silvery, tinny looking metal was.
     
  16. luckynick

    luckynick Chieftain

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    first : writing require pottery or AH so your research path is wrong
    2nd : you can get hinduism if you start with fishing and no worker until size 2 then immeditly go polytheism, if you get hindu researching poly after 2 other tech (you said fish and massonry) you re playing monarch not emperor and obviously not this GOTM
     
  17. A'AbarachAmadan

    A'AbarachAmadan Deity

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    1) Relook the chart, you do not need Pottery for Writing; you can research Writing by first researching Pottery, Animal Husbandry, or Priesthood. In this case I went the Priesthood route as I was going for the Alphabet slingshot. At this level I find the Alpha slingshot to be the best way to get ahead of the AI.
    2) GH is the shorthand I've normally seen for Goody Hut. I got Masonry via Goody Hut. My research was Fish,Poly,Pries,Writ. I stopped research after writing, while before that I got Mas via GH and build the Oracle to get Alpha. Then traded until HR was available and researched that at 100% with the extra gold I saved up.

    v/r, A'AA
     
  18. karmina

    karmina Warlord

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    first: writing requires pottery or AH or priesthood
    2nd: he got masonry from a goody hut (GH), as he additionally said in the spoiler text. :rolleyes:
    /edit: too late
     
  19. luckynick

    luckynick Chieftain

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    played the begining 5 time checked in the world editor to beeline war to hut, i never was able to reproduce your pathing plus alex bring his f***in settler way too fast in the marble copper spot so if you go for hindu 1st you merely are going to lose the settle spot.
    Btw i prefer a fast expand start without hinduism, i don't want to gamble on AI settling in my territory or not, in fact with your path i lose the copper so game over!
    Your path is one for somebody that MUST play money game. sorry to say that buddy but you have insane luck, i NEVER got a tech from GH using a warrior on emperor, with a scout yes but not with a warrior, not to precise the GH are really rare on this map not to mention losing your war to stupids bear.

    Anyway sorry for the mistake regarding writting from priesthood
     
  20. A'AbarachAmadan

    A'AbarachAmadan Deity

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    Don't know why you can't reproduce, but I didn't write down my exact movements and its been a while. In explore mode I generally pick squares that will give me the best long term view and fastest exploration, while running away from tough animals/barbarians whenever possible.

    On the settler, it is 'easy' to manipulate the AI even on emperor. Go to war with them to steal their workers. I always go to war with my closest opponent on emperor. Their settlers, even when guarded by an archer, will run away from your warriors and as far I've seen so far they won't even try to settler in the direction they've seen them come from; I've even had settlers guarded by archers run away from my workers, which I will post on a hill between me and the AI until I can get military or a settler there. :crazyeye:


    I wouldn't call the tech great luck; just glad it wasn't barbarians; of course, that may have even been a good thing since it was closer to the AI than me and may have affected the Greeks far more; I love popping barbarians near the AI even at the cost of a warrior. Although, I would have much rather had money. After doing the Alphabet slingshot it is easy to trade for all the lower level techs, but money is critical to being able to maintain a rapid tech pace after the trading is done.

    v/r, A'AA
     

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