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GOTM-04 Final spoiler - everything else!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by ainwood, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. aviator99_uk

    aviator99_uk Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Messages:
    185
    Location:
    Bath UK
    Emperor is a level higher than I normally play.
    Ghandi is a leader I never play.
    Large continents is a map I never play.
    Normal is a speed I never play.

    Expected this to be dificult if not impossible which is probably not the best mindset to start with.
    Strategy - non existant, didn't expect to be able to get enough religions to go for cultural, didn't expect to be able to dominate, so possibly a space victory.

    Start position looked poor from my viewpoint as I expected economy to be ruled by distance and wanted to be in a place where my capital could have citys all round it, not perched in the middle of nowhere. :scan:

    Decided to move one of the settlers inland and leave the other on the coast but move it north, after a few turns decided to make Dheli on a marble hill and the second city on a hill just north of the two clams. Saw blue boarder as soon as Dheli appeared! obviously going to be tightly packed with someone.

    set Dheli on to Stonehenge straight away nothing else worth building, set other city on to baracks until fishing then work boat, sent worker out as a scout found Alex and Vicky then got eaten by a wolf.

    Tech: Fishing - BW - meditation - wheel - priest - writing - hunting - archery -- started alpha - switched to argiculture

    Hinduism came in at 3240BC and the oracle at 1400BC, decision had already been made that Stonehenge is VITAL as I just cannot play without creative trait and after that Alex meant that Axes were just the order of the day.

    likely problems foreseen : Happyness and food, likely to be killer problems because they are, food wasn't a problem but happyness was and a religion never came my way and I never considered researching one.

    Declared war on Alex 1320BC got Athens, raized Corinth, took Sparta.
    Peace.

    Alex is left with one city, and is spamming settlers in my direction, cheeky bugger, as I had a couple of settlers waiting to do something (one was South in the Ice looking to get happy from the silver, the other was North on the Dye which Alex was heading for) So I decided to sity up the settler on the Dye to stop Alex getting it.

    Then I looked at the Economy, Happyness meant that I couldn't get a city over size 3, and with the 2 original citys, 2 captured ones, and the one I had just made I settled, that I couldn't make ends meet. 93 turns to research Agriculture and Alphabet was 100's of turns away.

    Didn't seem worth trying to rescue.

    Dunno how the rest manage to get an economy going at this level with this leader on this map. Not even going to see if I can do better on another try.
     
  2. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    6,141
    Location:
    London, UK
    Now that is a challenge :) It may be that you simply founded/captured too many cities too early, though 5 cities at 500AD doesn't seem excessive to me. Or it may be that the game is recoverable with some careful handling of the economy. Personally I'd love to have a look at your end game to see if I can do anything with it (since the GOTM is still running, I'd suggest if you're willing to take me up on that, you message me privately, DON'T post the game up here. And I probably won't publically say anything about what I did with it until the GOTM has closed, in about 10 days time).
     
  3. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    looks like it was 5 cities by 500BC, not AD...which is somewhat of a difference, but it still shouldn't have been unrescuable.

    like dynamic, I'm willing to see what I could have done with it if you'd like to see or hear how we can do with it.
     
  4. RobertTheBruce

    RobertTheBruce King

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    619
    Location:
    Southern CA
    Cultural Victory in 1942.
    I started out strong with a typical start and some lucky combat. Founded in place, built stonehenge, and a settler to get the marble and copper east. Alex founded a city just before I arrived so I settled near the coast. Started whipping axes and attacked Thermopylae which had two archers. Didn't lose an axe despite 2 25% battles and pushed on to Athens which fell to my double raider axes without any casualties. I thought, if I'm never going to lose battles a might as well go for domination. Mistake number 1. Take Sparta and settle for peace after discovering alphabet to steal some techs.
    I'm behind in the tech race but I can see York and Canterbury are poorly defended to my south and I can block the English expansion by taking them. My lucky rolls run out and most of my army is destroyed taking York. The oracle was built very early so I'm just finishing Courthouses and my empire is now way to big my research is done to 10% and I'm afraid to build any more soldiers. Vicky won't sign a peace treaty and I have to send a few units to pillage to get her to sign since the war weariness is killing what little research and growth I have.
    So, at 1000BC my two nearest neighbours are mad at me, no one will trade techs with me. I've switched to Budhism as a last ditch attempt to prevent Vicky from slaughtering me and hope Izzy (Confusion) doesn't attack from the east.
    A horrible start but I was saved by a world war. Louis, Saladin and Vicky spend the next 2000 years fighting each other as I turtle and try to catch up on techs. I'm behind on techs, only Saladin likes me, and my military is horrible so cultural victory it is. I steal one more city from Alex before he is destroyed and found a couple south to make 9 and spread three religions. Vicky never declares on me and switches to Free Religion and I can switch to Confusionism and had over bribe after bribe to keep Izzy happy. Louis and Saladin keep fighting all game and I beat Happy's rocket for a lucky victory.

    Obviously, on a second reflection my impulsive war with Vicky was a bad idea. I thought I could grab some cities, criple her and extort Currency and Construction to jump start my Domination. Instead, she kept sending swordsmen at my axes and I had to settle for no techs. I should have checked how many cities she had before declaring war since I wasn't going to criple all the cities outside her capital and I don't play emperor very often and this large early expansion was a disaster.
    A second curious incident which someone may be able to give me advice about. I had built 3 wonders since I was so far behind on techs. Stonehenge for an early GP and Chichen Itza in Athens when I was worried about defence and the Colossus in Dehli my eventual GP farm and by far my cultural leader. Everything else was built before I even got the tech since Hatty had a huge tech lead on me and most of the world. After I switched to culture, Saladin offered to trade Astronomy for Democracy and I was just automatically accepting all trades to stay on everyones good side or at least keep them from attacking. Doh, I just obsoleted the Colossus and I have no intention of building Galleons or Observatories. But wait, do I need it? Dehli had a huge culture lead on Sparta and Athens my other Cathedral cities so the 4 culture per turn isn't going to matter. Dehli was producing wealth not culture and still ended with 60000+ culture. Sparta and Athens have no coastal tile so all the other lost commerce was being used to push borders into the sea. Dehli had the Globe Theatre and National Epic and I was switching between 4 and 5 great artists to maximize gpp without starvation. Is it better to keep the two gpp from the wonder and risk getting a merchant or sacrifice the few additional turns to produce my Shakespeare's with 100% artist? (Yes, my tech was so sad I never reached the industrial era.)

    As an aside, pressing return 5 times, opening Dehli and switching between artist and ocean tile, pressing return 5 times, switching back; is a very depressing way to end a game. I guess I just have a bias in favor or military victories.
     
  5. terelli

    terelli Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
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    Location:
    Northern VA
    Long time lurker, first time poster.......

    Way out of my league, lost 7 times straight...BUT
    my best game was moving my first settler near the marble. Barbs settled near original
    site, took over their city, and I was rolling! Mismanaged later and lost a space race (I was going for culture, but got religion late) as I was always behind on techs...but I wonder how the more experienced players would do moving to marble first.....plenty to chop, and Alex most likely won't settle on the other side of you. Yes, it's contrary to what I would normally do.....but i've tried a number of scenarios to win and this was my closest.
     
  6. Doc TK

    Doc TK Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    111
    Finally finished this GOTM last night. Took me a long time because I had to learn how to play via the practice scenario. And then go back and learn how to play cultural victory on the practice scenario. I forget who created it, but thanks for that.

    Basic info is Contender, Cult Victory 1920, I forget my score, but it was around 20K, probably less by the end, it just kept falling as I hit the keyboard to go to the next turn. Argh, more on this below.

    Notes/Questions:

    1. War changed Alex exapansion - I got very lucky early on, but this may be a strategy that folks can use. I stole a work from Alex and on my way back with the worker and the warrior, I saw a pack of 2 archers and a settler heading into my territory. This must have been the group that plopped down next to the stuff in everyone else's game. Interestingly, they ran away from my warrior. I've had settler groups go right over the top of a warrior who was posted as a scout. So my guess is that they changed direction because we were at war and they were afraid of my scary warrior.

    I'm wondering if that's generally true - settler groups run away from warriors when you are at war?

    2. I founded 3 religions. Early on I went fishing, poly. Hinduism. Used Oracle to get CoL (Conf). Much later I got Taoism (basically because I didn' trade away CoL). Converted Victoria to Conf, but wasn't able to get Sal or Louis to convert. I probably should have built a few more missionaries earlier because it was very nice having Vicky on my side the whole game. Oh, and for the cult victory, I got lucky (I think) to have religions based in my first three cities (one each). Of course, my third city was down in the ice so it was very slow to build culture.

    Can you control where religions get founded (is it always most recent)? Should I have been somehow smart enough to hold off Philosophy until I had a better city location?

    3. Alex adopted Hinduism gets smacked by Vicky. Interestingly, because I started with Hinduism, Alex adopted it even though I converted over to Conf once I got Vicky on that. Caused Vicky to declare on Alex and made my job of capturing cities with swords a lot easier. And, with CoL, my expansion costs weren't too bad.

    4. Stopped with 8 cities. Duh. I ended up creating a stupid city in the ice because I didn't have a 9th city for creating temples and such.

    I'm assuming that everyone going for cult would build 6 or 9 cities? Anyone do it with 3?

    5. Duh, didn't build all monastaries. Sheesh, I thought that when you got Scientific Method that they no longer would produce culture. It looks like they still do. Sheesh. That cost me a lot in my slow ice city (6 cult per turn + all the multipliers).

    It is true that monastaries still produce culture?

    6. Hatty offerred Islam holy city, do you take it? Okay, so Vicky and I just get through killing an Alex city and a barb city and I plop a settler in admist the Ivory. I just beat Hatty who comes in with a settler group and they plop down a couple squares away from the ivory on the coast completely isolated. Then I notice all this cultural expansion from that city and low-and-behold they had founded Islam in the city. At this point, I already have 3 religions and Hatty and Vicky are ahead of me on points and maybe a bit ahead in culture. Hatty was friendly with me and Vicky. Is it worth it to go capture the city potentially spoiling both relationships but probably being able to get to cultural victory sooner (especially if I build the dang monastaries)? Oh, and, of course, that would have been my ninth city.

    Curious of thoughts on whether to take city?

    7. Izzy was weak. Declared on me two or three times and each time would kill some work boats and farms, etc., but would land with pretty outdated stuff. A bit lame to have to deal with it, but not much of a problem. Funny thing was that no one else was all that mad with her. I kept wanting someone else to keep her occupied. Nope, just me. Stupid Izzy.

    How did people get Izzy off their back?

    8. Advanced culture stuff? So, I'm definitely not a cultural victory expert as you can tell from the above (and if you read my questions last time you know that I'm actually not an expert at any kind of winning). To be honest, I decided to go after a cultural victory mostly because I didn't think I could fight Vicky and I had an artist pop early on. More to the point, it would seem that you can cut off research early (after Drama, Music what else gives you culture producing things?) or you can go up to Radio, Media, etc. Since I had three religions and had been spreading them around and had the three holy sites, I was producing a lot of Gold. I wanted to get Kremlin so I could buy stuff in the crappy 3rd city more cheaply, so I went for Communism. Then, I figured I might as well get up through Radio. I had the cities going for Artists, spreading religion, and either on Culture or Wealth. But, I'm curious if cutting off research a lot earlier wouldn't have netted an earlier win.

    So - when do people cut-off research and switch over?

    9. 3rd city? - at the very end of the game, I dropped in about 6 artists to pull the city through, but I think that even though the city had the religion founded in it, I probably should have gone for another city as my 3rd city.

    Any thoughts? Where did other people put their third city? Didn't Athens also suck as a spot for the third city?

    10. Cultural Victories are BORING! What do you do for all those turns while you are at 100% culture? Other than keeping your fingers crossed that no one declares on you. Izzy and Louis both did in my game, but were so weak that nothing really happened. Still, its just painful to micromanage cities and workers, watch everyone pass you in techs, and play defense when people declare on you. Oh, and you get to watch your score go down. The opposite of milking that everyone talks about.

    Or am I just missing the fun part?
     
  7. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
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    I did a cultural too (1735). Although I won't claim to have the answers, I'll state my opinion concerning your questions.

    I don't know, but if it is a fact it could be helpful.

    I don't know to what extend one can control in which city a religion gets founded, but I don't find it that important either. The holy city is the beginning of the spread of that religion. So when it is to inproductive to spam enough missionaries then convert a productive city too to help with spreading.

    When going for a fast culture victory you need 3 cathedrals for each religion, so 9 or more cities are best.

    Yes, they still produce culture. After getting obsolete you just can't build them anymore.

    After taking out Alex any new wars are counter-productive. When you haven't reached 9 cities, get some more. And founding is better then capturing. The wars are best left to the times when your army isn't obsolete.

    I didn't have other wars then with Alex. And those I started myself. To prevent counter-productive wars, as for example with Izzy, I used 2 tactics. I didn't get a state-religion until very late in the game (although I founded 2 religions). And I kept a sizeable army.

    I switched over after nationalism-printing press-liberalism.

    A 50K city has to have many towns surrounding it or have a lot of farms supporting artist-specialists. It is nearly irrelevant if a religion is established in such a city. Only advantage is that one can build a shrine. But it's better to get a great artist then to get a great prophet who builds a shrine.
    Athens was used as a great artist farm. It wasn't used as a 50K city. For 50K cities I used 2 cities with lots of towns and one city who build alot of wonders.

    Alot of bordom comes from going all the way to 1920. I have been busy all the time. Even after switching over to cultural I continued to build temples and occosianally switched to money to hurry a cathedral. And I was thinking of ways to improve my income. Having one shrine, spreading that religion to Vicky and Louis. And then building a market in the holy city. All in order to pay for 100% culture.
    So I guess I'm saying that when trying to go fast there's little time left for getting bored.
     
  8. ionimplant

    ionimplant Prince

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    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    when you're running 100% culture, will a market get you 25% increase in gold?
     
  9. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    The gold from the holy shrine doesn't get converted to culture - it stays as gold, so in the context of your question, yes, the market will give you a 25% increase in that particular gold, so it will help to pay for the 100% culture.
     
  10. friskymike

    friskymike Listening to:

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
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    392
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    I don't think I will have time to finish, RL is a ***** :(
    No actually RL is really good but there aren't enough hours.

    From my first spoiler you'll remember I founded 3 cities and a ****load of wonders by the early ADs, I had chopped every forest for stonehenge, pyramids, oracle, parthenon, great lighthouse, later I built colosus so my economy was doing well. Both Alex and Isa attached me in this period and I manged to beat them off.

    I got two cities on Isas continent and teched straight for knights, after I got there I realised military tradition wasn't too far away so I went for that. I was the first to get it but Hatty wasn't too much longer and she is ahead of me on most other techs eg. first to liberalism.

    I was just starting to build up my military again and ship them over to take Isas continent (as she was larger, so I wanted to take her first) when both Alex and Isa attacked me again, before I was really ready. I managed to beat off their large attack stacks by suiciding catapults and blitzing them with my few cavalry, I even had to change to nationalism and draft some muskets, but progress was slow.

    Isabella had conquistordors and Alex just got musketman, I am still fighting both of them at once in 1615 after many years war, I've taken one Greek city and am readying a force on Athens, and have also brought England into the war. Meanwhile have taken about half of Isa's continent, had faster progress there as initially had more cavalry there to start.

    In anycase Hatty is wayyyyy ahead of everyone else in everything that matters (size, population, tech) so would be a real challenge to beat to space or domination. I might get time in the next few days but would need to lose a lot of sleep... :D

    edit: In hindsight, I shouldn't have built so many wonders and should have used the forest chops for swords to take more land early from Alex, I probably still would have been the first to cavalry and had a bigger empire to build them with.
     
  11. Doc TK

    Doc TK Warlord

    Joined:
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    Thanks for the responses. Did you post a write-up of how you got cult that early? I didn't see one.
     
  12. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

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    True, I didn't post a write-up. :blush:

    This GOTM4 was the 4th time in a row I went cultural, and I'm beaten all 4 times. In this GOTM Sarum (post 104) is faster.

    I'm participating in the two civ3 GOTMs too, and find it hard to do write-ups for the games. So at the moment I limit myself to pre-game discussions and comments in the spoiler-threads.
     
  13. Dr Dinkindunkin

    Dr Dinkindunkin Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
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    Location:
    the heart of the Beast
    My game up to 500 AD is recorded in the first spoiler (post #124).

    To briefly recap: I have two very nice cities, Delhi (founded in place) and Bombay (founded on the marble to W, exerting pressure on Greek Thermopylae). Both of these have nice production, nice growth potential, and have been successfully constructing some helpful wonders. I also have three other cities founded as "fishing villages" on the coast, intended strictly to convert food from the sea into production via the whip. The plan is to fill up the gaps in my land and the ice-covered section of the continent to the south with more fishing villages until I have 9 cities, enough to seed 3 cathedrals, and try for a cultural victory.

    Nothing much interesting happens for quite some time while I pursue this strategy. I get beat to Liberalism and Notre Dame, it turns out by Hatty, whom I don't meet until 1430 AD (though I can see her territory on maps I've acquired from rivals). I am actually not that far behind her in techs, and I climb my way into the lead by 1480 when I discover Economics and switch to Free Market. My settlement strategy has been proceeding to plan. I have decided to make Madras, founded so as to get the game, fur, and bronze to the south in range (and winds up with horses, too!) the third culture city. At this point I probably could have tried to pursue a variety of victory strategies, but I wanted to try my hand at culture. It would be my first one. So, in 1480 AD, I drop down my research to zero and crank up the culture.

    Now, at this point I have only 2 religions (Hiduism, which I founded, and Judaism, which only just spread to me in 1480!). Delhi and Bombay each have a decent cultural output due to wonders (with cathedral buildings to follow), but Madras has a long way to go. To make matters worse, I founded a coastal city near enough to Madras to eliminate the horses from its workable squares, leaving it with very poor hammer production. I didn't think much of this at the time, as Madras needed culture, but I found this to be a strategic flaw: even at full population (8--not great, but not bad for an iceball city surrounded by tundra) it took quite a few turns before I had enough hammers built up to whip out cathedrals and other important culture-producers. With an estimated 260 turns to go before Madras (the last of the three) would become legendary, I would need a lot of luck to pull this off!

    But, what's done is done. Here are the strategic and noteworthy highlights:

    I founded the city of Jaipur in a little "nook" between two Greek cities, just north of the wheat to my west. This aggressive move paid off, as the force of my culture finally caused Thermopylae to flip to India in 1710 AD. This will prove to be a crucial buffer on my western flank in years to come.

    Christianity spreads to my empire in 1730 AD, and I manage to spread it to the six cities I need to build cathedrals in Bombay and Madras (Delhi will become legendary way before these two will). Just to reiterate the point I made earlier about trying to build culture in a fishing village like Madras: even though I made sure that Madras was my third Christian city so it could get right to work on its temple-cathedral, Bombay STILL finished its cathedral before I could pop rush one in Madras. I became obsessed with getting culture in Madras....

    Just as I am finishing up the Christianity project, Confucianism spreads to Thermopylae. And...there's a Confucian missionary next to Bombay. That's right! Victoria is actually spreading her religion in my land! What luck! I immediately begin the task of spreading it around. Four cathedrals will help immensely!

    1880 AD, Bombay achieves legendary status. I am feeling pretty confident here despite Madras' relatively slow cultural growth. Then...:eek: Hatty declares war on me in 1884 AD! :eek: This is going to hurt! My best troops are some crossbowmen! Hatty lands a small, but advanced, invasion force near Delhi: three cannons and an infantry. A few turns later, one of HER cities becomes legendary. So, she wants to beat me down so she can grab the cultural victory!

    I quickly upgrade as many troops as I can, which gives me a handful of crossbowman and some macemen. That's it. I pop rush a knight in Delhi, then another one. Many suicidal attacks later, I manage to wipe out Hatty's forces. I must admit that I think I was helped by a ton of good rolls of the dice there. I think that one time I beat a fully-healed cannon straight up with a maceman. At any rate, Hatty did a lot of pillaging, a lot of killing, but no major damage. Just got my heart-rate up! I get her to sign a peace treaty in 1910 for most of my treasury. But no matter. The gold served its purpose, allowing me some critical upgrades. And I calculate that I have but 32 turns before my final city becomes legendary.

    1918 AD, Izzy completes the Apollo Project. Growing population in Madras keeps moving my date of victory downward.

    In 1928 Hatty gives me a fool's choice: declare war on Alex, or else. Now, I know this is a ploy on Hatty's part, but I take her up anyway. Izzy and Vicky were already at war with Alex, and he was quite weak. He was also quite unpopular, and my refusal to stop trading with him had been slowly turning all of the AIs against me for a few centuries. I had finally tried to stop the diplomatic hemoraging a few turns earlier by cancelling my deals with him, and now Alex hated me. I figured that he was bound to pounce on me soon, anyway, and I thought it best if I got into it with him on my own terms: with Hatty as an ally, and Alex weakened from his conflict out west. What harm could he do...?

    Alex immediately jumps in and occupies Jaipur, which is undefended. No matter. There are only three cities that count: Delhi, Bombay, and Madras. I pile all of my troops (some knights and some muskets) out west to protect Bombay and Thermopylae, which could serve as a staging point for an invasion into my soft underbelly if it fell. Alex very slowly begins to marshall some cats and some cav on the border. In 1935 Louis declares war on me, and Alex, emboldened, makes his move: He sends some cavs into my territory near Thermopylae and begins to pillage like there's no tomorrow.

    Except, there IS no tomorrow! In 1936 Madras finally reaches legendary status, giving me my first Emperor win, and my first Cultural victory!

    Final score: a piddling 8289 (unadjusted--I played Contender class). Whatever--I'll take an ugly, marginal victory any day!;)

    Thanks a bunch, Ainwood for a fun map, with lots of surprise goodies (bronze and iron and horses, Wheee!).
     
  14. beestar

    beestar subdeity

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    Sounds like an exciting game!
     
  15. AU_Armageddon

    AU_Armageddon Cenobyte

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Hades
    I don't have much to add to my first spoiler. After floundering around wondering what way to win in the 1900s, unsure why I wasted such an uber start, I just cracked it and killed everyone. On bright side I was able to capture the only 2 wonders I didn't build, making this my first emporer game where I actually got every single wonder.

    Conquest victory & lousy score.
    But I did meet my original goal - have a long GotM :)
     
  16. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    ok, aviator decided in 500BC to resign cause he felt he was in an impossible situation, Dynamic Spirit and I offered to try to finish it off for him, so here's my Write-up of that game.

    Note: I've checked with AlanH to make sure I could post this up, as long as I mentioned what was going on :)

    Now, I have already submitted my game, and so I did have some foreknowledge of the map, but the place that he's gotten to in the game is such that any foreknowledge I had really didn't make much of a difference, IMO.

    500BC Situation:
    Peace is apparently recently signed with Greece, as Sparta is about to come out of revolt, and I have control of 3 native Indian cities, Athens, and Sparta.
    Economy is in the crapper: 204 gold in the treasury, losing 3 gpt at 0% science.

    I checked the civics screen and notice city upkeep is 8 gpt, but I'm apparently spending 24 gpt because I have 21 gpt income.

    So I came to 2 conclusions:
    1) I had too many units
    2) Agriculture(the science currently being researched) was not high on my priorities

    So, I upped my science to 50% and changed to pottery, so I was losing 12gpt, but getting pottery in 9 turns...so I was safe, I had 15 turns before I went broke with my current treasury.

    My first act then was to disband my least promoted axemen, and saved about 4 or 5 gpt. I also saw a barbarian city I could attack for some cash.
    I did so, lost 2 more axemen(yay, 2 gpt saved), took Chehalis in 400BC, and kept it.
    In the same year, Christianity was founded in a distant land. Wow, someone is really teching it up.

    I move north to finish exploring and maybe find more barbarian cities, pop a hut and get a map showing exactly what I was hoping for...a barbarian city in the north that I can capture and get more plunder for.

    325BC: Pottery learned, cottage spam begins, France met. I begin on alphabet so I can find out how far back I am in tech, and to hopefully gain some of those low end techs fast and easy.

    150BC: Alemanni captured, 2 axemen lost again(and now I am nearly breaking even at 20%, but I push my science at 50% still)

    1AD: I had an archer near Chehalis attack a barbarian and fail, so I decide to do what I had originally planned with the city...I traded it to Victoria to make her like me more.

    25AD: The barbarians capture Chehalis from Vicky. Nice, two edged sword, now she lost the plunder cost AND didn't keep the city, yet she still likes me for giving it to her.

    50AD: Vicky declares war on Alex, who still has just 2 cities, so I declare also. I send three axemen down to Delphi and the rest go after Thermopylae.

    75AD: I lose one axeman, take Delphi and raze it down. Got some more cash for my science push.

    100AD: Alemanni has never had defense, so when a barbarian approaches, I again trade it to Vicky for a relations boost. Two turns later she loses it to the barbarians as well.

    250AD: Thermopylae is captured and Alex is gone.

    275AD: I realize that while city upkeep while manageable at the moment, is higher than it could be, and will keep me at a lower science rate than I want for awhile. So I start building a Palace in Athens to lower my city upkeep.

    Alex apparently tried to capture Chehalis while Thermo was under siege, but accidently razed it(that fool). So there is an open space on the coast for a city, and Saladin recaptured the city of Alemanni from the barbarians.

    I have no religion right now, but Izzy still hates me(Alex was her friend apparently), but everyone else likes me so I'm thinking that if I can get my science to a decent level perhaps I can win a diplomatic victory.

    325AD: Alphabet learned and Code of Laws started.

    350AD: I find that three civs have not learned Alphabet yet(France, Arabia, Spain). Izzy won't trade with me, but the others are part of a Hindu block and trade me Agriculture, Masonry, Polytheism, and Animal Husbandry collectively for Alphabet.

    375AD: Judaism is spread to me, and I begin spreading it, but don't convert yet. Athens is celebrated as the new Capital of the Indian Empire, bringing on a reduction in city upkeep of 3 gpt.

    450-600AD: Buddhism and Hinduism spread to me and Taoism is founded in a distant land.

    I'm still way behind in tech apparently, as I still don't even have Iron Working

    760AD: Confuscianism is spread to my empire at the same time that I discover Code of Laws. Obviously, I start building courthouses in all 6 of my cities. I begin research on Literature.

    900AD: Literature learned, research begun on Iron Working. Islam founded in a distant land now.

    Note: As probably noticed, my research still is very bad...my hopes of living if anyone declares war on me is slim to none. All my chances of living depend on Victoria being willing to go to war to help me.

    1010AD: Mathematics and Iron Working learned(Mathematics was a late trade for Literature).

    1050AD: Egypt contacted.

    1080AD: Currency learned and traded for Sailing and cash.
    The cash enabled me to raise my science to 80% and keep it there for quite awhile while I finish my markets, which should give me the ability to keep my research around 70% and stay even.

    At this point, my GNP is 2nd in the world, but nearly everything else is extremely low ranked.

    1120AD: Monotheism learned(purely because I refused to trade currency for it)

    1140AD: Theology traded for Currency. Bangalore founded on the ice to get the Fur, Deer, Silver, and Horses.

    1180AD: Metal Casting learned.
    1200AD: Monarchy traded for Metal Casting.
    1230AD: Construction learned.
    1280AD: Feudalism learned.

    1310AD: Colossus built in Madras.
    Now this was a surprise, Sistine Chapel was built in 400AD, Notre Dame in 1210AD, and Hagia Sophia in 1230AD, yet I was able to build the Colossus?

    1330AD: Civil Service learned.

    1390AD: Divine Right learned. I didn't care about anything that had to do with it, except that it is a tech that the AI highly covets, so I was able to trade it immediately with everyone that didn't have it.

    1400AD: Traded Divine Right for Drama, Horseback Riding, Compass.
    1430AD: Philosophy learned.
    1450AD: Paper learned.

    1515AD: Education learned, and I discover to my great surprise, that no one else knows it yet! I quickly decide to research liberalism and feel that I finally have a shot at maybe winning!

    1545AD: Liberalism learned, and Nationalism taken as my free tech(it was on the way to cavalry and was the most expensive tech, also no one had it yet)
    Also adopted Free Speech and Free Religion

    1555AD: Music learned.
    1575AD: Gunpowder learned.
    1585AD: Machinery learned.
    1590AD: Traded for Guilds, Engineering, Optics
    1595AD: Banking learned.
    1620AD: Printing Press learned.
    1635AD: Taj Mahal built in Delhi. Golden Age begins.

    From this point on, I was the tech leader for nearly the rest of the game, I'll only mention the important tech discoveries.

    1735AD: Learn Scientific Method, Corporation, Steel
    1750AD: Statue of Liberty built in Delhi

    1775AD: Izzy declares war on me and lands a stack of 8 Conquistadors and catapults near Bombay. I've been building mass military for over 100 years though to attempt to get a respectable military to prevent war declarations.

    1790AD: Vicky and Louis declare war on Izzy in exchange for a tech apiece.

    1795AD: Replaceable Parts learned.
    My cavalry and Grenadiers make short work of her troops, I kill all 10 without losing a single unit. But Izzy is only more enraged and refuses to speak to me.

    1812AD: Rifling and Astronomy learned.

    1818AD: I destroy another 10 unit stack of Conquistadors and catapults, but this time there was one rifleman thrown in. I don't lose a single unit again, and my first frigate destroys a portion of her navy...still she refuses to speak to me.

    1830AD: Physics learned, and Izzy finally decides to peace me when Louis razes one of her cities.

    1886AD: Railroad and Mass Media learned. I immediately cease all research so I can rush the UN.

    1894AD: UN built in Athens. research is begun again on Rocketry(I hope for a diplomatic victory, but want to keep space race as a viable second option.)

    1896AD: Eiffel Tower built in Delhi.

    1900AD: Izzy declares war on me again. I had placed one troop on every single coastal tile I had so that she would have to unload troops into a massacre to land. Thus, she lost two artillery trying to kill a rifleman I had fortified on a hill before a third one killed it.

    In my first volley, I kill 2 of her frigates and her entire stack again(this time 12 troops), losing 1 cavalry.

    1906AD: Rocketry learned, and Izzy apparently upgraded her technology, as she comes after my fleet with a destroyer.

    1912AD: I load 2 cavalry and a grenadier onto one of my last galleons, and drop them on Izzy's continent after having killed all visible frigates and destroyers(had to suicide three frigs to kill it though).

    1924AD: I upgrade my frigs to destroyers, just in time to battle and kill Izzy's fleet again. She kills my raiding force, but not before I destroy 3 towns and 2 gold mines. Apparently, raiding doesn't make her wish for peace either, as she still refuses to talk to me.

    1926AD: Nationhood adopted, because Izzy has killed my entire fleet and has 4 transporters full of artillery and SAM Infantry coming toward Bombay.

    1930AD: Good thing I adopted nationhood, cause all but one of my defensive troops in Bombay managed to lose to her troops, so I have one injured Gunship defending against 8 damaged artillery. I draft 3 infantry, upgrade my Gunship, and bring in two defensive troops from Delhi.

    1936AD: Industrialism and Communism learned, I finally kill off the last of her invasion and half of her visible fleet again. She finally is willing to get peace with me again.

    1944AD: Plastics learned. Apollo Program built in Delhi, only Victoria has built the Apollo Program so far.

    1949AD: Computers is finished, 5 SS Casings are built, and Laboratories are begun throughout the Empire.

    1960AD: Robotics learned(was hoping to get the space elevator, but Victoria finished it in 1961)
    1965AD: Satellites learned.
    1974AD: Fiber Optics learned. SS Docking Bay and 3 SS Thrusters are complete. I'm closing in on Victoria!
    1978AD: Victoria wins a Space Race.

    And so the game ends. I managed a respectable(to me at least) 3131 in-game score and was second place in the space race.

    My thoughts on it: It sucks to be bogged down in upkeep early on, but I managed to play catch up fairly well and even took the tech lead for awhile. I went from Iron Working to Liberalism in 300 years.

    I should have been more aggressive in founding cities once I got out of the hole financially.
    Izzy was a big pain, even after she adopted Free Religion.

    I couldn't get voted as Sec-Gen because Victoria was my opponent, if I'd been more aggressive after becoming solvent, I could have prevented her from getting two city spots that gave her 3M population by the 1800s.
    Perhaps then Izzy would have been my opponent. Everyone loved me except for Izzy and Hatty, Hatty was pleased with me, but friendly with Victoria.

    I played my end game horribly. That is apparently what my problem is, because in both this game and in my game I was able to gain the tech lead eventually, but still lost the Space Race.

    Anyway, this is a little bit of a long writeup, and it was still a loss, despite playing with some foreknowledge of the map, but as hopefully people can see...that foreknowledge was minimal as I never even used the iron near the starting position and didn't really do much exploring.

    So, there's how it goes aviator99...if I hadn't blown the endgame, I probably would have won. Now I'm interested in seeing how Dynamic Spirit fared in the game :)
     
  17. DwarvenGiant

    DwarvenGiant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Messages:
    2
    Cultural win: 1947
    Final score: 19843
    Difficulty: Adventurer
    Jason Score: ?? (still to be submitted due to website problems)

    Having played Civ 3 & a fair amount of Civ 4, I thought why not GOTM 4? Then I researched the past GOTM maps & compared them to what people thought at the start. Result? Ainwood is a sneaky person who always puts a twist or three in the GOTM.
    This one appeared (from the initial shots)to have the twist of India being on a peninsula on a standard sized map. The civs would be fairly close. This meant that I could be cut off from the land I needed by another civ. Another factor would be that the AI civs would research faster than I could AND out build me. So taking just one warrior & one Settler would put me at a disadvantage. Also, goodies huts would be gone soon if there were and civs that started with scouts.
    The Adventurer setup would make it an easier start but would have problems. Having played a few games using Gandhi, I know that he needed a religion fast or he would run out of things to build. Delhi was founded in place on the plains hill. I started researching Meditation as this is the religion you should be able to get with only one city & limited money resources. Delhi started Stonehenge.

    Meanwhile, I ran my 2nd Settler, my Fast Worker & both Archers westward as fast as I could. I ran into Alex, saw 2 Scouts at the same time & went OH NO! Odds are he would get to Archery well before I would. Possible even Bronze Working. So I had to get rid of him asap but didn't have the ability to do so. A nasty problem.
    So I kept my Archers heading west & retreated the 2nd Settler & Worker Eastward. I delayed founding Bombay (just s of the Marble) until I had only 3 turns left on Meditation. This meant I had only 4 turns to go after adjusting slider and was able to get Buddhism.
    Then I took advantage of the stupidity of the AI. I declared war on Alex before producing my 1st warrior. An Archer & a Worker were sitting on the Cow making something when I got close. Both of my archers entered Greek territory on a forested spot beside the Cow. (didn't attack the lone Greek Archer as I might have lost) And what did I see but a hill beside Athens and the spot I entered. Perfect! The Archers went to that hill and sat there. For centuries. Every so often 1-2 Greek Archers (Alex did have Archery) would attack me. They all died due to the hill defense bonus. Eventually, both my Archers promoted to Guerilla 2 and one even had Combat 1.
    In the mean time, I built Bombay near the Marble & Madras down in the ice zone getting the Beaver, Silver & Fish in the fat cross.
    My initial research line was Meditation, Priesthood, Hunting, The Wheel & Masonry. I built Stonehenge & the Oracle taking Bronze Working as my free tech.
    Now why did I take Hunting over Fishing? Almost everybody took fishing in order to get Delhi those Clams. I saw the main problem as a lack of money, not a lack of food. So obtaining Fur & Deer early was considered by me to be more of an advantage than just getting Clams. Also, Deer benefited both my early cities while Fish did not.
    I connected all three cities & finally built 6 Axmen & captured Athens in 500 BC killing the Greeks.
    By then Victoria had expanded up the west side of the section between us while I raced up the East side finally taking the Ivory part. A Barb city lasted on my side until 700 AD due to the position it had on a hill. It was fun watching Victoria's Axmen & later Horse Archers kill themselves trying to take that town. Finally, the Barbs had only 2 woulded Archers left & I took the town. It was squeezed by an English town but never flipped.
    During the next 1000 years I expanded my population as much as I could & got as many techs as I could. Diplomatically, I made friends with everybody but eventually, only Victoria & Hatshepsut remained friendly with me. Isabella & I never get along in any games I play so this was not a surprise..
    I began to build the Cultural buildings early, got three religions (founded Buddhism & Taoism, got Confucianism from Isabella) made Delhi, Bombay & Athens the 50k cities. (that was the order they went Legendary)
    The end game was a bit tight. It started in 1770 AD when Coventry revolted to me from the English. Then I was blackmailed by Saladin in 1785 to attack France. (he was trading me techs I needed & I could not risk losing him as a trading partner) So I declared war & mainly sat but did take the last French city in 1822.
    Then Victoria got chummy with me because of all the tech trading I did with her. So she attacks Saladin for the next 100 years. I sit & build culture in the 3 cities & war units in all the others.
    Meanwhile, Hatshepsut asks me to attack Isabella with her, so I do. My fleet dies but so does Isabella's. She never landed on my side of the world. Good thing too as my tanks would have crushed her cavalry. She did take & raze the former French city I had taken. Oh well, as it lowered my expenses. Meanwhile, Saladin was about to die so I ran a few Tanks to kill a couple of cities & keep Victoria away from a 3rd Oil source.
    The tight part came after Victoria built the UN & became the Sec Gen. I was worried that she would get a Diplomatic victory as Isabella hated me & liked Victoria. Several resolutions were passed but not the big one. Fortunately, Hatshepsut & I were just a bit bigger than Victoria & Isabella. Why? Hastings. It flipped to me in 1920. Without that, I would have lost the UN vote.
    All in all a very challenging game but luck & random events played a huge factor in your survival. If my Archers had not withstood the Greek Archer assault, I would have not won this game.

    Oh, yes. This is my 1st post in Civ Fanatics.

    Moderator Action: Welcome :wavey:. I've moved this post from the GOTM 5 Pregame thread
     
  18. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,836
    Location:
    Maryland
    nice game, Izzy always bugs me in my games too

    one comment about your early techs though, the reason so many people took fishing so early was not for clams, but for extra commerce(can't use sea squares at all until you get fishing, and costal gives 2 commerce)
     
  19. Samson

    Samson Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Finally finished it. After missing the submition deadline last month with some 10 turns left to play, I really wanted to finish this months. I have just finidhed it, but not submitted because of the server problems.

    Played chalenger. Finished in 1946 by space ship, score 3866, in game 7272.

    This is the latest date I have got to in Civ 4. I got the marble site, more by luck than judgement as as Alex went west and north before east. I did not make war with him early as I was a long way behind and was woried about getting beaten. Vicky attacked him and I made war just in time to get a couple of good cities, athens (that became my heroic epic city) and themopole to the north.

    Just as I was finishing off Alex Louis declared war on me. He had a few horse archers around my borders, and he got a few workers. I easily killed these in the next few turns, and my army started a slog across the continent. I easily overpowered Louis, and then turned my attention to Saladin. Again it was easy, mostly with knights.

    By the end of saladin, I had a reasnoble army and I considered making war on The englich. I decided against it, as they had a large army and we had very long borders. Instead I built infrastructure and teched towards biology. I built the National epic in Mecca and cottages over the whole of my conquer land.

    When I got Industialization I decided I would take Egypt for the health (2 grains + pigs, 5 health in each city). I totally rolled over them, I should have done it earlier.

    By the time I had finished with Hatty I was not that far from the spaceship, I think I had just done robotics. I did not realize the space elavator could not be built in either Delhi or Athens, and decided even with the great engineer I had saved for it it was not worth building as it would take around 9 turns. So I quickly built all the componets I could and all other cities on reaserch. I got Fusion in 3 turns.

    I thought it would be close, but it when I got the spceship Issabela had not reaserched either genetics or ecology.

    Great game, thanks to all. I shall try and upload a shot later.

    [EDIT] A few interesting points -

    Did not use the wip once
    Never got anything from being first to a tech
    Built 7 cities
    Had 2 great person golden ages, finished the game with 3 unused
    Wonders built = Oricale (never can spell that), Stonehenge, Pentagon
    In the 4 turns after ecology (my last space ship tech) I dicovered 4 techs with help from 1 artist and traded for 2
    Was going at about 1.5 turn per hour when at war, after the last war I did my last 15 odd turns in 45 mins.
     
  20. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Location:
    formerly Santa Clarita, California
    Happy to report that I've completed my first game of CIV :) (after 2 aborted attempts at GOTM2 and 3 - not enough time and my computer has definite problems with CIV). Contender class - cultural victory in 1925 AD. (Thank you for Strategy Articles!) Still in learning mode (first time I've made it to the middle of the Tech track!), but some things are starting to gel.

    Founded on the starting spot. Got a 2nd Warrior out, then a Workboat, Worker, chopped a Settler (more or less). Any extra shields stored in Stonehenge. Fishing first then beaten by 2 Turns to Hinduism, then BronzeWorking. Alex beat me (like many others) to the very nice spot to the West, including the Copper within his city radius. This means War! Settler turned North and formed Bombay on the coast - not a great spot but I could mine a plains-hills and get some production going for lots of Warriors. I declared when I had a stack of 5 ready; lost 2-3 against his lonely Archer, but I captured Thermopylae, and now had 3 cities. I quickly got the Copper connected, and soon had Axemen, but I could never get enough to hold off Alex's Chariots AND take Athens. Lost quite a few units on both sides before we called it off.

    I had met Victoria meanwhile, and she also was at war with Alex. This and Open Borders pretty much kept her happy with me the entire game. I weakended Alex sufficiently that she captured Athens - once Alex's culture went away I managed to spam a few cities into the gaps created giving me some expansion. Bangalore founded a couple spaces North of the Marble (access to the Wheat), Madras on the coast near the Bananas and Calcutta between English captured Athens and the rest of the English empire - I hoped to flip Athens Eventually, but Calcutta's initial useful spaces were very limited. When Sparta was captured by Vickie, I founded Lahore nearby (a couple spaces West of the Bananas), and managed to push Karachi further North on the Coast adjacent to the Ivory. With Delhi, Bombay and the captured Thermopylae, I had 8 cities. I managed to squeeze a 9th into the Desert between Lahore and Karachi - a Barb city on the coast between Madras and Karachi prevented me from founding there (and taking the paper). Militarily I didn't do that good in this game - I took Thermopylae with the early Warrior Rush, but failed in taking Athens, and I tried several times to take this Barbarian city (Carib) but failed there as well. Vickie eventuall captured it. That was the extent of my offensive operations.

    At least I had my 9 cities, which would eventually allow me to build 3 Cathedral type buildings in each of my Cultural cities. I built Stonehenge in the late 2000's in Delhi; the early culture was useful to expand the radius of my new cities. I also built Oracle in Bombay and choosing between CoL and Alphabet - chose CoL, getting me my first Religion. After learning Alphabet, I used CoL to trade for most Techs I was missing. I was still going after my 9 cities, so I went straight towards Philosophy, leaving Calender for later, so that Stonehenge would stay active longer. (Not saying it's a great choice, but I also knew I was culturally vulnerable out in the far north reaches of my skinny empire.) This took me up to about 500 AD, when I reached Philosophy.

    I used a Workboat to start scouting Isabella's continent; I still hadn't come across Hatshepsut yet; all of a sudden she popped up so we made contact somewhere around mid 700's. Isabella had founded Judaism, and it spread to Madras; Taoism spread to Calcutta. I had my 3 religions and when able, made sure to spread them to all my cities. I used one Great Prophet to build the Kong Miao, and that gave me some gold for a while. Isabella shows up and insists I switch to Judaism; after some thought, I agree. She and Vickie could do me the most damage, so it seemed best to keep her as happy as possible. I've chosen Delhi, Thermopylae and Bangalore as my Cultural cities, and the Fast Workers are doing their job putting in Cottages most everywhere. A Great Scientist puts the Academy in Delhi; a 2nd Great Prophet learns Theology for me (but somehow I miss that Spain already had learned it - at least I get some good trades out of it). And a Great Artist is added to Bangalore; this city appears likely to have the hardest time gaining the 50K culture, so the Hermitage is built here as well; at this early stage the Great Artist should accumulate more than 4000 culture for Bangalore when used as a super specialist.

    After Philosophy, I researched through Civil Service, to Nationalism and Constitution, allowing the Representation Civic. At this point I am Tech Even more or less. Next is the push to Liberalism. I need Paper, which Arabia has but wont trade, so that is first. I'd really like to get Democracy as a Free Tech, so I research all but 1 turn of Education, then I start on Printing Press. With 4 turns left on Printing Press I see that Isabella has learned Education. Yikes! And she is in a Golden Age. I press on, and a few turns later I hear that she has learned Liberalism. Oh well. I finish Printing Press, Education, and push on to Democracy first. Once learned I switch to UnivSuff and a cash economy to rush the remaining Temples and Cathedrals I need, and Emancipation to develop my cottage - hamlet - town - village squares; then back to Science to learn Liberalism. After that, shut down and turn on the Culture. Roughly 1620 AD at this time.

    I guess that didn't sit well with Louis. Out of the blue he declares on me in 1650 AD. Hmm, my military is not that powerful. I switch back to Cash (UnivSuff civic) and start rushing units. He doesn't know MilTrad yet, so Knights seem to be the biggest threat, so I'm building lots of Pikes, and some Catapults. I build up Calcutta substantially, and he sidesteps that city to head towards Bangalore. We both have Open Borders with Vickie so my units can move freely between Calcutta and Bangalore. Louis has about 3 largish stacks of 10 or so units, coming in waves. Interesting - he'll use the knights to go out and pillage, leaving them vulnerable. My Pikes do a good job mopping up loose Knights; I'll take those odds all day long! (If left in the big stacks, those Knights would be much more powerful) The Knights from 2 big stacks are pretty much gone, and the remaining units are adjacent to Bangalore - a few catapult Collateral damage barrages leave this group in tattered shape. Meanwhile the defenses at Bangalore are stiffening as I rush some Muskets (traded for Gunpowder earlier). By the time his catapults have reduced the city defense bonus to under 10%, my catapults have taken about 50% of his offensive capability, and his attack founders. Muskets are able to take on his Crossbows (not a melee unit), and the primary stack is being dismembered. The Knights from his 3rd stack have isolated themselves again, as the main force tries to reinforce the remnants of the first 2 stacks; I pick off more Knights and do not allow a reunion of the foot soldiers. Louis' army is destroyed! It is now 1710 AD; 12 turns lost to this foolishness. Only one of Bangalore's towns has been pillaged; other spaces are also pillaged but they are insignificant and quickly rebuilt.

    That was it for any AI offenses against me. Vickie could have run me over at any time (she had already finished off Alex, and much later, Saladin). Isabella and Hatshepsut could have also damaged me severely. I focused on keeping as good relations as I could for the majority of the game. This also meant giving much better deals than I was getting, and in the final push I made sure I was gifting at least 1 resource to all the remaining AI. And pretty much giving in to every demand that came my way!

    Anyway, I used Delhi as my GP producing city. It was already so far ahead in culture of the other 2, that the loss of commerce by forming as many Great Artists as possible still left it 50 to 100 cpt ahead of Bangalore and Thermopylae. I missed Parthenon, but was in the Pacifism civic, and with 6 Artist Specialist, and a few Wonders, was getting 66 GPP/turn. This was enough to get 7 more Great Artests, which were stored for the final push. The 7th was generated the same turn that Delhi passed 50K, in 1922. In 1924 I popped 4 Great Artists in Thermopylae to push it over 50K, and 3 in Bangalore to put it 200 culture shy, so it reached 50K at the beginning of 1925. Not a great date, but I was pretty happy with the coordination between the cities. Vickie, Hattie and Isabella all had some SS parts built, but they still had 20 to 30 turns to go (I'm assuming).

    I was maintaining 70% culture during my push, and ran at 80% for the last 15 turns or so, so I still need to sort out how to pay for my empire better and run at higher culture (hmm, I used other cities to form Scientist specialists - probably better to focus on merchants). Health was something of an issue in the late game; happiness definitely was not in the later game, though it was a challenge early on. And the timing and research path needs some refinement. Once the culture got going I had 4 cities flip to me! Athens, Sparta and Carib (all cities that Vickie had captured) and Abydos that Egypt founded down near the Silver. An enjoyable game with some good challenges :)goodjob: to the staff!); lots of new things learned (and lots more to go!). Looking forward to GOTM5!
     

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