GOTM 04 - First Spoiler (starting continent)

[Greebley]

I'm having real problems with tech trading in this game - don't know whether this relates to Emperor level or just diplo ratings. Despite being 4 techs behind, being only 4th on the leader board and with them being 'pleased', none of the three ladies will deal with me. Their excuse - 'we fear you are becoming too advanced'. WTF is that all about?

It's hard enough developing a tech that even a couple of civs don't already have. Half the time I've had to give them away as tribute or for cash (which at least helps keep the sicence rate up).

Is this just a cop-out because the AI doesn't have a better excuse? Am I only going to be able to deal with 'friendly' civs? Is it just me?

The "becoming too advanced" is probably the most misleading part of civ4. My understanding is that enemies will only trade a certain number of techs. After that point they won't trade with you for the above reason reguardless of how far behind or ahead you are. Thus early trading is not always a good idea. However, the "too advanced" message communicates none of this so you have no idea that there is a tradeoff between early and late trading. I personally think this is a sub-optimal way of handling trading.

I have heard that if you get them to "friendly" in your relations, they are willing to trade again. Perhaps somone can verify that this is true.

 

[JerichoHill]

That is true. I proved it this game, but I can't say anything until I finish

 

[Thrallia]

I dunno about that...I had decent relations with Izzy the whole game but she refused to trade anything with me the entire game...on the other hand, Victoria and Hatty were always willing to trade me anything as long as I had the cash or a tech to give in return.

 

[Ribannah]

After reading this spoiler I found that the behaviour of the opponents seem to vary a lot. I did some test starts and found this true. Sometimes you can get a religion, sometimes you don't have a chance. Sometimes you can build the Oracle, sometimes you are beaten by ages. There is also a interesting varity in the place where Alex founds his city. The amount of tests I did is no statistical proof, but it seems to me that just placing a unit somewhere affects the decision of the computer if and when to settle in this area. Do you have similar experiences?

Yes, this is quite true. I just ran a quick test where I founded east of the starting tile (to get more shields, eventually, with the fish as bonus). I got Buddhism, and was further comfortably able to found Confucianism in 1040nc, finish the Oracle in the same year and get Civil Service out of it.
Meanwhile Greece had settled in all the right places (I had just the one city) but as I went on to produce a swordsman a turn I could easily overrun them all. Gold was accumulating despite 100% science. (In my actual game it is the opposite: at 0% science I'm still getting techs.)

 

[Enthar]

Since i have finished and posted my game, i feel its ok to comment in this thread despite not meeting the criteria (havent seent the full continent, dont konw where all the strategic resources are, etc.)

As you can probobly guess, a pretty brutal loss on my part.

I did pretty well last GOTM, getting ~20k points on Adventurer, but I knew that Monarch was a bit beyond my abilities. Still, I had finished well above most, so I felt Contender would be where I should play. That was a 'mistake' in the sense that i never really had any chance of surviving, let alone competeing to win, on this emporer.

Settled in place, went fishing, missed Poly by 1 turn. Got Oracle for CoL and confucionism, bumped into a very aggressive alexander. Fought a very long and drawn out war that was only won because Victoria killed him from the other side. Very stupidly attacked Victoria, as I had local superiority at the time. Vicky turns out to be HUGE, and over the next 1000 years I fight a long, slow, losing battle.

But that I guess is for the next spoiler.

Mistakes:
needed to manage research a little better. If i had, I could've gotten Hinduism.

Should NOT have attacked Victoria

Should have tried harder to beat Alexander to city spots (and this despite taking his worker away!)

Good things:
Early religion does help a lot with the low happiness limit on emporer, i dont regret going for it.

Plains hill cities with large cultures are a royal pain to take- i learned this from the wrong side, but I killed 20 or 30 attacking units with just 5 or 6 defenders.

Live and learn, die and forget.

 

[Orion071]

My first post, and my first attempt at a GotM. I've done pretty well at Monarch, and I have 1 victory at Emperor, but I like working with Large and Huge maps, not Standard. Plus, I'm pretty liberal about restarting the game. But I figured that a GotM at Emperor would start you off pretty well so I tried it on Contender following all of the GotM rules.

I settle on the hill and decide to build up my initial city. I research Fishing -> Hunting -> AH -> BW. I go Warrior, Warrior, Work Boat, Work Boat, Worker, Worker, Settler. I see Alex very close by and knew he would be trouble. Since space was an issue, I decided on one city north of the Marble and another city in the Tundra just north of the Deer. Well, as my first Settler is moving west, Alex drops a city just south of the Marble, cutting me off completely. War was the only answer. I had my 3 Warriors move in. The first attacks and does no damage to the defending Archer. Ouch. But the second Warrior defies all odds and beats a fortified Archer in a city! He gets 5 XP and razes the city. I quickly settle and hook up the bronze. I chop out Stonehenge, Barracks and a few Axemen. My Warriors are in the woods soaking up attacks from Alex's Archers while my Axemen moved in on Athens. I take Athens and call a truce.

I build another city south on the coast by the Fish/Silver/Copper, and another by the second Marble. I expanded too quickly considering my lack of commerce and had a few turns where I was running a deficit at 0% science. I started cottage-spamming like crazy and slowly built up my science. I got Alphabet, but I wasn't the first to it. That's never happened to me before. I didn't want to trade for the early religious techs and run into the dreaded WFYABTA later on, so I only traded for comperable techs. My Great Prophet discovered Theology (Hatty still beat me to it), but I was able to trade it for almost all of the techs. Vicky and Hatty still have Drama and Music, but as of 580 AD, I'm in the middle of the pack points-wise and I'm the first to research Paper.

I have a nice 8-city empire and I'm about to take a Barbarian city for 9. Alex only has 2 cities, so I figure I'll put him out of his misery. But Alex is part of our Hindu alliance and everybody loves him (?!?), so I don't want to make my friends angry by attacking him now. Vicky still worries me because she has a huge empire and is more advanced than me, plus she's Jewish and doesn't like me too much. I might have to start a Hindu holy-war and knock her down a few pegs. But overall, I'm happy where I am at this point in the game.

 

[strollen]

My 2nd GOTM but my first serious game at Emperor. I do pretty well at Monarch so I knew this would a step up, but since Gandhi is one of my favorite leaders, I went with Contender class.

Settle at the default spot, figuring that happiness would be an issue I went Mysticism and than gambling I built a settler. Founded Hinduism, research fishing. My settler after playing hide and seek with a lion settled just south of the dear, which was good spot since horses soon appeared. Delhi built warrior, than fishing boat. My research plan was hunting-->AH-->Wheel->Bronze.

I soon found that civics are expensive at the emperor level
I made some mistakes in production, building I ended up with fast workers and settlers in my 2nd city instead of stonehedge since I was having trouble with happiness. I ended up with 3 fast workers and didn't have much for them to do. I finished stonehedge in Delhi and than built a 3rd settler.
Alex built a city by the dye/wheat so I was force to build my city on coast within range of the marble and wheat.

I was holding off the barbs but science was down to 40-50% and Bronze working research was going very slowly. Alas Alex had other plans a force of 3 archers razed my 3rd city and than more archers plus barbs archers advance toward Bombay at which point I resigned.

I'll take another stab at it now being a bit wiser.

 

[jafink]

Well i started this game knowing that being aggressive would be my only chance. I built 3 or 4 cities, and then rushed alex. I captured all of his cities and built a few more. Bringing me up to nine.
At this point my warfare phase came to an end, since i was at 10% research, and i started rebuilding. I was lagging very far behind in tech, and i dont think i will be able to catch up

 

[Bezhukov]

The too advanced limt comes at later times (after trading more techs) as your relations improve. Trading with "friendly" civs is unlimited.

This was such an interesting start, I played several different starts out to get a feel for optimal starting strategies. Without the river or fishing at the start, though, the early religions were just too random to be reliable. My favorite start was the first one I played - I founded my capital on the marble hill by the river: 3 hammer city square!

 

[Iceman_Shooter]

Contender game.

This is my first GOTM and my first game ever on Emporer level.
Highest previous level was noble.

Quick Recap.

Settled in place. Decided to go for Mysticism->Fishing->BW->agriculture
Made my firstmistake by researching a lot of stuf for the fast workers to do but forget the research the wheel so i could't hook up anything like the bronze. First build a warior to protect my city send the other warior to explore . Found alex to the west. He expanded extremly quickly. Founded my second city next to the deer just after he founded his city next to the marble. Luckily my culture in the second city keeps his at bay so i have the Bronze. Founded my 3rd and last city round about 1000BC in the only place left to the north. Only have three city's and now where to go.

Alex at this stage is my strongest ally.
Made the mistake of helping Victoria to go to war with Sullidan. As soon as I Declared war alex declared war on victoria so decided to make peace with sullidan and help alex with victoria. Still in a war with Victoria.

In terms of points I am last on the list and about 200 points below victoria.

This is quite a learning experience for me.

 

[totororo]

Ouch. That was a 15 minutes game.

My mistake was the following: Alexander took the grassland paradise west of Dehli (which seems also to contain copper and horse. I died too soon to discovered that). One of my warrior got close of his city, saw a worker, hesitated 5 minutes, and decided it was a good idea to take him. Of course, he died. The worker was brought back to Dehli and build a mine. But i couldn't make peace.

A couple of turn later, only two bowmen came to me. There were two warriors in dehli, i thought it was enough (i got a +40% culture defense, thx to stonehenge and oracle). It wasn't. Dehli was captured. Game over.

I was at the time running a bureaucraty and caste system (CS slingshot), and about to get Alphabet.

I fell somehow unlucky but a litlle bit stupid. cauz I think i shouldn't have gone for the cs slingshot. That's great, but maybe too much of a bet. At least, i should have realized that it was overdangerous to steal a worker AND to do the cs slingshot... But last month, i tried the map twice, and got a 122k score by doing this slingshot at my second attempt (that i didn't submit, of course). I felt this slingshot was the key to get a very high score. However, I don't think that 0 is one...

 

[ScubaRoo]

The "becoming too advanced" is probably the most misleading part of civ4. My understanding is that enemies will only trade a certain number of techs. After that point they won't trade with you for the above reason reguardless of how far behind or ahead you are. Thus early trading is not always a good idea. However, the "too advanced" message communicates none of this so you have no idea that there is a tradeoff between early and late trading. I personally think this is a sub-optimal way of handling trading.

I have heard that if you get them to "friendly" in your relations, they are willing to trade again. Perhaps somone can verify that this is true.

Wow. Glad I asked. This has some pretty serious implications if this is the case.

It would certainly make sense - there has to be something that is stopping civs from trading, and it seems to be a lot more pronounced when playing at this level (which I wouldn't normally ).

In my experience friendly nations will always trade, so that figures.

Do we have any info on exactly what the limit of trade would be? If you're correct then it would seem to be a function of level and diplo rating. Does this mean we have to keep track of exactly how many techs we have traded with each civ? What about trading for cash?

If this does turn out to be the case then I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. It seems a rather clumsy way of giving the AI more advantage (as I assume they can trade at will) and frustrating the player. :thumbdown

If this is too off-thread then please relocate or point me in the right direction. Anyone looked into this already?

Thanks for your input.

 

[greentea]

I need a break from CIV, I started GOTM4 a couple of hours ago, but made a couple of stupid tactical mistakes such as razing Athens and declaring war on England later, so I retired in frustration. And it could have been a really interesting game. I think I was doing decently otherwise.

Turn 7 (3720 BC)
Tech learned: Fishing
Turn 19 (3240 BC)
Tech learned: Polytheism
Hinduism founded in Delhi
Hinduism has spread: Delhi
Turn 31 (2760 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Turn 38 (2480 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel
Turn 44 (2240 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood
Turn 47 (2120 BC)
Bombay founded
Turn 55 (1800 BC)
Tech learned: Writing
Turn 59 (1640 BC)
Tech learned: Hunting
Turn 62 (1520 BC)
Delhi finishes: The Oracle
Turn 63 (1480 BC)
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Confucianism founded in Bombay
Confucianism has spread: Bombay
Turn 85 (750 BC)
Tech learned: Alphabet
Turn 86 (725 BC)
Tech learned: Iron Working
Tech learned: Pottery
Turn 92 (575 BC)
Bombay finishes: The Kong Miao
Turn 102 (325 BC)
Tech learned: Mathematics
Turn 105 (250 BC)
Axeman loses to: Greek Archer (0.45/3)
Axeman loses to: Greek Archer (1.98/3)
Axeman loses to: Greek Archer (0.30/3)
Spearman loses to: Greek Archer (0.45/3)
Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): Greek Archer
Axeman defeats (3.95/5): Greek Archer
Swordsman defeats (4.14/6): Greek Archer
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Greek Archer
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Greek Archer
Captured Athens (Alexander)
Razed Athens
Athens lost
Tech learned: Agriculture
Tech learned: Sailing

I made a mistake even before razing Athens, I should have probably aimed to get Metal Casting from the Oracle, since I had Hinduism already. Also I realized I was very slow with the war, should have chopped more of those axemen. My next stupid mistake came from the first - Elizabeth settled a city in former Greek territory, guarded only by two archers. I was tempted and declared, but the next turn they were longbowmen. I suicided most of my army and retired in a couple of turns.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

Contender: I lost with a score of 0 in 600 BC lol. I hadnt played in weeks and i discovered the wrong way to start!

Ok my first thought was hey UU is worker. lets make a worker off the bat. Problem: worker stood around nothing to make...

Then i goofed around and wasted time.

Then the greeks came over and put down a city right on the river square to the west near all the resources. Defending it with 2 archers before i had archers. I pretty much figured that screwed me all to hell since it choked off my space and resources badly. But since i didnt want to just quit so early i made a bunch of warriors.

My last and final error was not immediately researching archery when he plopped that city down.

In the post mortem the warrior spam kept him nicely neutralized. However i need archer spam to really win the city. And when my archery came to late he eventually polished me off at 600bc. The other course would have been to "enhance my calm" when the greeks screwed my space so badly and just tried to play out of it.

So basically I "found a way that didnt work"

Did they tweak the early game AI in the patch?

Anyway thanks for the Game of the month.

Edit:
So i start another game to maybe apply what i learned. I go settler right off the bat and bronze working too (since bronze is over there~). Less then 20 turns later i make a settler and instead of taking all day to get to that spot the greeks plop down as soon as my settler is finished. Is that coincidence? Or does the AI know when your going to finish settlers and plan accordingly?

Anyway this time he isnt as far advanced so iI plop down two cities along the north and south coast and get the bronze (last time he plopped down right next to the bronze). I think i have a shot but i underestimate how fierce his first attack will be in the iron age.

This is a really hard start when the greeks get a settler there first. Definatly much harder then spamming random maps at this difficulty until one starts nice (as i think many people forget they do~). Im beginning to think the best start for a novice on this map is to just give the greeks plenty of breathing rooming.

 

[mboza]

Contender: I lost with a score of 0 in 600 BC lol. I hadnt played in weeks and i discovered the wrong way to start!

So i start another game to maybe apply what i learned. I go settler right off the bat and bronze working too (since bronze is over there~). Less then 20 turns later i make a settler and instead of taking all day to get to that spot the greeks plop down as soon as my settler is finished. Is that coincidence? Or does the AI know when your going to finish settlers and plan accordingly?

Who did beat Alex to founding a city somewhere by the marble, and who had to fight for it? I would love to see a poll.

I must have replayed this start almost 20 times since submitting. I managed to beat Alex once, despite the last two attempts where I built settlers first. Even then one got eaten by passing lions (just after the starting warrior got eaten). Maybe 40% of the time he builds Thermoplayae, around 2200 BC? And 60% of the time he builds Sparta there around 2800BC? But everytime I have built a warrior first, I lost the race. Worker stealing did not work, becuase I just lose warriors to his archers. And hovering on his border peacefully did not deter Alex either.

Sadly I came closest in the first attempt, but forgot to whip at the critical moment. (did manage a CoL slingshot, but sadly no pyramids in a peaceful start, somewhat like Greentea's, just Alex built by the marble in 2160 BC, and I had to work around him.)

Even the last attempt, where I did found my city first, still failed because my research rate disappeared. Athens gets a 40% cultural bonus before I can build a 6+ axeman stack, and nuisance raids by chariots just delay it further. 1AD, 5+ techs behind.

 

[Jastrow]

As I stated in my first post, I am one of those who founded Marble-land before Alex. This was however consistant with your observation for the "40% case". I founded in 2240, a coupdl of squares away from that I felt was the ideal location, because I saw a great Settler. I expect he would have founded in 2200 exactly...Indeed, this was Thermoplayae, which, as seen in my screenshot, he then relocated slightly to the north.

 

[Ribannah]

Well, as reported, I founded Delhi west of the marble. I got boxed in in several test games so I made sure we secured a sizable patch of land right away.

 

[voe]

I still hope to find time to write my spoiler, although I cannot submit the game after quitting later in digust (losing my entire army after eliminating Engaln and Greece)
Anyway, I managed to beat Alex to the marble. I had an extremely lucky start compared to others here, I managed both the Oracle and Stonehenge, founded hindiusm and beat Alex to the marble site as I said. I got BW from a hut and two or three forests grew near Delhi, that helped a great deal obviously.
I choose a conquest/domination path, but was way too slow I guess, Managed to kill ALex and England, Took a bite from the Arabs , moved my lareg large stack of beat up troops in a freshly conquered city, excluding the defenders left on a hill just outside the city. Of course the counterattack wiped out my cavalry catapults etc, I just quit in disgust with myself at that point.

With the start I had had I should have gone cultural anyway I guess, I just might give it a try again

 

[KingdomBrunel]

After a dismal effort on my first Monarch game last month, I thought I'd better try Adventurer this month after the level was upped again, and to be perfectly honest I was expecting another kicking. So far though, things aren't going too bad, although I don't think I'm any danger of winning.

The extra Settler came in very useful indeed - I'd read about how settling too early may be a bad idea, so guarded by an Archer the new Settler headed west, settling several turns in the cushy spot giving access to wheat, marble, silk and deer. Unfortunately, still settled too early to get Hinduism from Poly which was my first tech. My plan was and (in theory) still is a cultural victory, and no early religion put a dent in this.

However Delhi built Stonehenge and the Oracle and Parthenon followed shortly afterwards. 3 wonders on Emperor level, and I thought things were going pretty well. I was progressing towards Alphabet too.

Having met Alex, and knowing he had Phlanx as an early defensive UU I thought he had been placed deliberately to signal that expanding west was not the easiest route. Knowing there was land across the sea meant that I now planned to go east, hoping there may be space that way, and I saved two settlers so that I'd be able to expand that way, meaning that Alex founded a new city by the resources near the tundra. Most of you will know whether this move would have been successful or not, but I'd better leave it out of this thread for spoiler reasons. Hopefully Alex's city will culture flip soon.

Anyhow, back on the mainland, Saladin & The Queen Vic had both declared on me, and Saladin's invasion was successfully repulsed. England's appeared to be a phony war as nothing was seen of them. Eventually peace was restored with both. By this point though I think I'd lost my focus on what techs I was going for, and having only two cities meant I was now falling behind quickly. The plan now has to be to get science going again, and quickly.

Do I survive to the end? Do I avoid the ambulance award this month? Will I complete before the end of the month? Who knows, who cares? I don't know. What I do know though is that it's been an enjoyable game, and I've enjoyed reading through the other threads on here too. Thanks to everyone for setting these games up, and for all those who've taken the time to post on here too. - it's good stuff.

 

[MiniMe]

Initial moves
Found Delhi on the spot. Build a warrior for more scouting and build work boats when fishing becomes available. Find Alex and one hut just north of him that nets me 52 precious gold pieces. That shaved a couple of turns off Poly research and might have been the factor that let me found Hinduism. If I hadnt gotten Hinduism it wouldnt have been a disaster. I wanted an early Oracle so Poly or Meditation would have been necessary anyways. But it was nice with the extra happy face. I also built an early temple to capitalize on it.

I used pop rushing to some extent in the early game since I was short on hammers and that I could not grow because of unhappiness. I rushed the first settler since I didnt want to risk being beaten to the sweet spot by the Greeks who were very close.

I found Vicky and a worker presented itself so nicely I could not resist. It joined the ranks of fast workers, and Vicky stayed pissed with me forever. Not sure I made a good choice there. I am glad I didnt find any of Alex' workers since I can basically never resist. But I had GOTM 1 in fresh memory where Alex betrayed me so I like to believe I would have made the smart choice not to grab his workers had I found one.

Being industrious with access to Marble I felt obliged to build a few wonders ...

Wonders in Delhi
Great Library - 875BC (earliest ever for me)
Central for my GP factory and also a boost to science.

Great Lighthouse - 475BC
Seeing the possibility to have lots of coastal cities I decided to go for this one. Unfortunately Greece built only inland cities, I later had to raze some of them in order to rebuild on the coast. Also I had a problem getting trade routes with far away nations up and running. Spain had its own religion so no open borders. Egypt & Co I had open borders but even though I though I had clear line-of-sight so to speak, my cities didnt get trade routes with them until after I made peace with Alex (or maybe it was taking athens that triggered it). Does ice stop trade routes on the coast? Also I didnt get trade route with my ice city to the south until I roaded it in. I should have gotten trade route by the coast but didnt happen.

National Epic - 275BC
For obvious reasons.

Colossus - 25BC
Nice but not essential I think. Obsolete quickly and I am not sure its worth it.

Wonders in Bombay
Oracle - 1600BC
I had a hard time deciding between Writing or Metal Casting. I took writing and I think that was the right choice for me. It gave me several lower level techs I really needed and a few turns later also Iron Working. Also in order to get Metal Casting I would have needed to research Pottery myself, and I was not in a mood to delay it any more. Some test games show me that Oracle can fall quickly on Emperor.

Parthenon - 900BC
My plans included a GP factory and so this one gives a nice boost. Not sure if it was a smart choice to ignore the Pyramids though. Representation and happiness would maybe have been a better choice. Started the Pyramids but lost to France.

Research
Fishing - 3270BC
Polytheism - 3200BC
Hunting - 3000BC
Bronze Working - 2600BC
Wheel - 2400BC
Masonry - 2160BC
Priesthood - 1960BC
Writing - 1600BC
Alphabet - 1560BC (ORACLE)
Sailing - 1560BC (trade)
Animal Husboundry - 1560BC (trade)
Agriculture - 1560BC (trade)
Pottery - 1560BC (trade)
Archery - 1480BC (trade)
Iron Working - 1480BC (trade)
Literature - 1080BC
Meditation - 1040BC (trade)
Mathematics - 800BC (trade)
Monarchy - 675BC (trade)
Metal Casting - 575BC
Calendar - 425BC (trade)
Code of Laws - 350BC
Monotheism - 300BC (trade)
Civil Service - 50AD --------- change to Bureaucracy

Regarding mistakes, I am pretty sure I should have gone for Code of Laws before Metal Casting, but it was just that I saw that someone else had it so I thought I could trade for it soon enough. I couldnt and had to research it myself afterwards.

Great People
Scientist 825BC - Academy in Delhi
Scientist 600BC - Join Delhi
Scientist 250BC - Join Delhi
Scientist 25AD - Join Delhi
Delhi is spitting out a healthy 40 GPP per turn at 1AD (more than half are scientist points)

Wars
Apart of course from the initial worker war with Vicky baby, I thought that since Alex was so close he would attack sooner or later, so why not beat him to it before he can really defend himself. He had just been able to connect some iron when I hit him and had some spearmen but no axes or swords. In 1 AD I had razed my first almost-coastal city and was surrounding his capital. But noticing an almost non-defended inland city I went there first.

Isabella attacked me but never gave any sign of fire before I sunk one of her boats when she wanted to land a settler and protection on my precious coast line.

Inventory 1AD:
3 cities with 21 pop
5 fast workers
9 swordsmen (1 lost)
2 axemen
4 warriors
1 workboat (for scouting)
2 galleys
3 forges

1 barracks
2 temples
1 granary
1 library
2 lighthouse
1 obelisk

1 academy
1 parthenon
1 oracle
1 great lighthouse
1 colossus
1 great library
1 national epic