jeremiahrounds
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 404
ooo pop rushing a settler. im so noob.
GOTM 04 - First Spoiler (starting continent)
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Well, I expected Emperor to be hard but not this hard. Played contender and didn't even do well enough to learn much from it.
Founded Shackopolis in place
Research:
Polytheism (got Hinduism)
Hunting (thinking to improve cattle and deer)
Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working
Archery
Wheel
Agriculture
Builds:
Warrior
Barracks (no point in worker before it has an action to take, and unit costs already eating into science rate??!)
Worker
Warrior (to escort)
Settler (city razed)
Warrior
Settler
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Settler (disbanded because NO ROOM)
Lots of archers who all got killed
Cities:
Shackopolis in place
Delhi in SW, razed by barbs on the very next turn
Bombay on N coast
3rd settler had NOWHERE to go, Alex had already penned me in, had to disband!!
Alex declared war in 525 BC, Isabella a few turns later.
Wiped out by 50BC.
This was so bad it's not even funny.
Founded Shackopolis in place
Research:
Polytheism (got Hinduism)
Hunting (thinking to improve cattle and deer)
Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working
Archery
Wheel
Agriculture
Builds:
Warrior
Barracks (no point in worker before it has an action to take, and unit costs already eating into science rate??!)
Worker
Warrior (to escort)
Settler (city razed)
Warrior
Settler
Warrior
Warrior
Warrior
Settler (disbanded because NO ROOM)
Lots of archers who all got killed
Cities:
Shackopolis in place
Delhi in SW, razed by barbs on the very next turn
Bombay on N coast
3rd settler had NOWHERE to go, Alex had already penned me in, had to disband!!
Alex declared war in 525 BC, Isabella a few turns later.
Wiped out by 50BC.
This was so bad it's not even funny.
Challenger level
With no techs, early religions are out. So I go fishing, bronze working, wheel then pottery. With this I can build axeman and improve both flatland and hills. That is the essential minimum.
My build order is Warrior, work boat, work boat, warrior, worker, settler, warrior. Around this time my capital was at size 4, so it only built settlers and workers until hereditary rule.
I got the prime city site next to the marble and deer, and then I founded one in the south near the fish and silver and then one in the north of the peninsula getting the wheat. Alex left the coast free and I got another 2 cities later on the east coast.
I had thought about early war, but by the time I was read to really start producing enough units alex looked a bit too powerful and I decided to wait until cats.
This left me with "spare" production, so I went for a couple of wonders. I really wanted the oricale, so I went mysticism, meditation and then priesthood. I built Stonehenge while waiting, and then got the oricale. I was a good way off writing, so I took hereditary rule. This was good as it allowed me to grow my cities to a good size.
I got alphabet when only 1 other civ had it, and I got a good few techs for Hereditary rule and alphabet, but not code of laws. This was a bit of a pity, as I had high maintanace costs, but I was OK.
That takes me to about 500 AD. I have not done much, but I am ready for a major war to take Alex.
Religens were very slow to spread. I have had trade routes to everyone else for many years, but I only got confususism in one city. That is enough, and I shall start spreading it to the rest of my empire soon.
With no techs, early religions are out. So I go fishing, bronze working, wheel then pottery. With this I can build axeman and improve both flatland and hills. That is the essential minimum.
My build order is Warrior, work boat, work boat, warrior, worker, settler, warrior. Around this time my capital was at size 4, so it only built settlers and workers until hereditary rule.
I got the prime city site next to the marble and deer, and then I founded one in the south near the fish and silver and then one in the north of the peninsula getting the wheat. Alex left the coast free and I got another 2 cities later on the east coast.
I had thought about early war, but by the time I was read to really start producing enough units alex looked a bit too powerful and I decided to wait until cats.
This left me with "spare" production, so I went for a couple of wonders. I really wanted the oricale, so I went mysticism, meditation and then priesthood. I built Stonehenge while waiting, and then got the oricale. I was a good way off writing, so I took hereditary rule. This was good as it allowed me to grow my cities to a good size.
I got alphabet when only 1 other civ had it, and I got a good few techs for Hereditary rule and alphabet, but not code of laws. This was a bit of a pity, as I had high maintanace costs, but I was OK.
That takes me to about 500 AD. I have not done much, but I am ready for a major war to take Alex.
Religens were very slow to spread. I have had trade routes to everyone else for many years, but I only got confususism in one city. That is enough, and I shall start spreading it to the rest of my empire soon.
Attachments
Dr Dinkindunkin
Chieftain
Playing on contender, even though this is my first Emperor game. The best way to learn how to swim is to jump right in, right?
After reading some of the pre-game discussion thread, and after a very short practice game, I decided that it was possible to go for an early religion, so that was my plan. Founded Delhi on the spot after moving warrior W reveals no new resources. I began building a 2nd warrior and started researching fishing @80%. On my second move the warrior tops the hill and reveals marble on the river. Interesting...I had planned on a fairly slow expansion, but by turn 3 I had already decided that I wanted to plop my second city down right on top of the marble to get the silk, the river, and the hammer bonus from the plains hill. I pop out my second warrior and switch the build que to Stonehenge for 3 turns--just long enough to discover fishing--then switch again to build a work boat. I head for polytheism. About this time I discover that Alex is my neighbor to the west; I've heard bad things about this guy, so I'll have to keep my eye on him.
In 3440 BC Buddhism FDL, and I start to sweat. But...Gandhi founds Hinduism in 3200 BC! I begin researching bronze working to get a handle on the strategic situation. I micromanage a work boat in 3120 BC and switch to a settler. That's earlier than I had planned, but Alex is much too close for comfort, and I want that marble for wonders. When I discover bronze working in 2680 BC--holy hammers! there's bronze right next door to the marble--I know I HAVE to beat Alex to that spot...4 turns to go for a settler. Researching wheel for those nifty resources.
Ha! I found Bombay on the marble in 2400 BC, with a Greek settler just a few squares away! Bombay begins building barracks to defend the empire. In the meantime the plans for Delhi are a second workboat for the second clams, then 2 workers, whip a warrior, then Stonehenge.
Skipping ahead a bit, I meet up with Saladin, Victoria, and Louis--they must all be out west somewhere. I finish wheel, hunting, priesthood, and I start towards sailing, figuring that I'm going to need to expand to the island(?) I can see off to the E. About this time I decide that I could plop a fishing village down on the ice to get the furs, the game, and the copper, and that would additionally close of the southern, icy part of the continent from rival expansion. It may be an iceball, but it's gonna be MY iceball. I complete Stonehenge, but miss out on Oracle by 2 lousy turns--maybe that second worker was a mistake. To make up for it, I build the Parthenon in Bombay. I found Madras near the furs as planned in 825 BC.
Nuts! That's Isabella on the "island" to the E (can I say that in this spoiler?) She's not going to like my Hindu butt, and she's likely to bring a lot of pressure to the borders of any cities I want to put out there. Nevertheless, it would be sweet to drop one right on that hill next to the gold...
...Or maybe not. In 575 BC the borders of Cordoba expand enough to claim the gold I had my eye on. I decide to abandon that site for one (still on Izzy's continent) a bit farther north. But first I think I will let Delhi grow and build a lighthouse before going for another settler. In 575 Hinduism spreads to Madras and to Athens. A turn later, and Alex converts. Phew, that should buy some time. I strengthen my relations with Alex by sending him clams for some of his wheat.
In 425 BC I found Bangalore on the coast of Izzy's continent, and that pretty much does it for my economy. I'm at 30% research, but luckily help is on the way. With the frozen tundra to the south effectively blocked off, I open borders to Louis and Saladin, and the trade routes help bring in a bit of scratch. Moses is born in 275 BC and builds the Vishwanath, which brings my research back up to 60-70%, and 4 turns later Delhi builds the Great Lighthouse. That puts me at a solid 70% research.
I am the first to Alphabet in 100 BC, and I immediately begin to trade for a lot of techs I hadn't bothered to research. You mean we can EAT those cows? I begin working on metal casting (no one has it), planning on forges and the Colossus for more scratch. My trades have revealed iron N of Delhi (Yeah!) and horses within the boundaries of Madras. Not bad for an iceball fishing village.
I have been very slow on the scouting of my continents, but I can see that there are at least 3 barb cities N of Greece. This probably explains why Alex hasn't been pounding on me. I'm going to need to keep him happy, because once he's through those barbs he's going to be one tough cookie.
I get metal casting in 225 AD and will hoard it until I get the Colossus well under way. I found another iceball fishing village--Calcutta--down south to get the silver and the fish. The fishing villages are paying off (I have three, where I just keep applying the whip every 10 turns), but I am starting to worry about my entire productive capacity relying on slavery. I've also been living on a razor's edge as far as military power goes. And now it starts to show. Louis threatens me in 325 AD and I rebuff him. Then Izzy demands money the next turn, and I give her the one-fingered victory salute. Neither of them declare war, but my relations are looking pretty dangerous. Ominously, Louis closes his borders. I have, fortunately, been able to keep Alex off my back with some nice trades, but I am starting to wonder if I can keep up without building more military. I finish the Colossus with the whip and then build a barracks in Delhi to regrow and the lost pop. and put a tougher face on life.
And then something strange happens. Out of the blue, Lous converts to Hinduism in 500 AD--he had ONE Hindu city, WTH? Suddenly we are on the right track again diplomatically.
And that pretty much brings me to the end of this spoiler. Because of slow scouting, I acutally didn't qualify to read or post to this thread until 720 AD, when I uncovered the rest of my continent with a flurry of map trading. I think I'm in pretty good shape (2nd to last in score, though), and I'm planning to try for a cultural victory. This will necessitate filling in some of the sparse areas of my empire with some coastal cities and also colonzing the frozen penninsula to my south. These cities will pretty much be glorifed churches so I can build my full repertoire of cathedrals. I hope I have time to finish this one up...I've had precious little Civ time this month!
After reading some of the pre-game discussion thread, and after a very short practice game, I decided that it was possible to go for an early religion, so that was my plan. Founded Delhi on the spot after moving warrior W reveals no new resources. I began building a 2nd warrior and started researching fishing @80%. On my second move the warrior tops the hill and reveals marble on the river. Interesting...I had planned on a fairly slow expansion, but by turn 3 I had already decided that I wanted to plop my second city down right on top of the marble to get the silk, the river, and the hammer bonus from the plains hill. I pop out my second warrior and switch the build que to Stonehenge for 3 turns--just long enough to discover fishing--then switch again to build a work boat. I head for polytheism. About this time I discover that Alex is my neighbor to the west; I've heard bad things about this guy, so I'll have to keep my eye on him.
In 3440 BC Buddhism FDL, and I start to sweat. But...Gandhi founds Hinduism in 3200 BC! I begin researching bronze working to get a handle on the strategic situation. I micromanage a work boat in 3120 BC and switch to a settler. That's earlier than I had planned, but Alex is much too close for comfort, and I want that marble for wonders. When I discover bronze working in 2680 BC--holy hammers! there's bronze right next door to the marble--I know I HAVE to beat Alex to that spot...4 turns to go for a settler. Researching wheel for those nifty resources.
Ha! I found Bombay on the marble in 2400 BC, with a Greek settler just a few squares away! Bombay begins building barracks to defend the empire. In the meantime the plans for Delhi are a second workboat for the second clams, then 2 workers, whip a warrior, then Stonehenge.
Skipping ahead a bit, I meet up with Saladin, Victoria, and Louis--they must all be out west somewhere. I finish wheel, hunting, priesthood, and I start towards sailing, figuring that I'm going to need to expand to the island(?) I can see off to the E. About this time I decide that I could plop a fishing village down on the ice to get the furs, the game, and the copper, and that would additionally close of the southern, icy part of the continent from rival expansion. It may be an iceball, but it's gonna be MY iceball. I complete Stonehenge, but miss out on Oracle by 2 lousy turns--maybe that second worker was a mistake. To make up for it, I build the Parthenon in Bombay. I found Madras near the furs as planned in 825 BC.
Nuts! That's Isabella on the "island" to the E (can I say that in this spoiler?) She's not going to like my Hindu butt, and she's likely to bring a lot of pressure to the borders of any cities I want to put out there. Nevertheless, it would be sweet to drop one right on that hill next to the gold...
...Or maybe not. In 575 BC the borders of Cordoba expand enough to claim the gold I had my eye on. I decide to abandon that site for one (still on Izzy's continent) a bit farther north. But first I think I will let Delhi grow and build a lighthouse before going for another settler. In 575 Hinduism spreads to Madras and to Athens. A turn later, and Alex converts. Phew, that should buy some time. I strengthen my relations with Alex by sending him clams for some of his wheat.
In 425 BC I found Bangalore on the coast of Izzy's continent, and that pretty much does it for my economy. I'm at 30% research, but luckily help is on the way. With the frozen tundra to the south effectively blocked off, I open borders to Louis and Saladin, and the trade routes help bring in a bit of scratch. Moses is born in 275 BC and builds the Vishwanath, which brings my research back up to 60-70%, and 4 turns later Delhi builds the Great Lighthouse. That puts me at a solid 70% research.
I am the first to Alphabet in 100 BC, and I immediately begin to trade for a lot of techs I hadn't bothered to research. You mean we can EAT those cows? I begin working on metal casting (no one has it), planning on forges and the Colossus for more scratch. My trades have revealed iron N of Delhi (Yeah!) and horses within the boundaries of Madras. Not bad for an iceball fishing village.
I have been very slow on the scouting of my continents, but I can see that there are at least 3 barb cities N of Greece. This probably explains why Alex hasn't been pounding on me. I'm going to need to keep him happy, because once he's through those barbs he's going to be one tough cookie.
I get metal casting in 225 AD and will hoard it until I get the Colossus well under way. I found another iceball fishing village--Calcutta--down south to get the silver and the fish. The fishing villages are paying off (I have three, where I just keep applying the whip every 10 turns), but I am starting to worry about my entire productive capacity relying on slavery. I've also been living on a razor's edge as far as military power goes. And now it starts to show. Louis threatens me in 325 AD and I rebuff him. Then Izzy demands money the next turn, and I give her the one-fingered victory salute. Neither of them declare war, but my relations are looking pretty dangerous. Ominously, Louis closes his borders. I have, fortunately, been able to keep Alex off my back with some nice trades, but I am starting to wonder if I can keep up without building more military. I finish the Colossus with the whip and then build a barracks in Delhi to regrow and the lost pop. and put a tougher face on life.
And then something strange happens. Out of the blue, Lous converts to Hinduism in 500 AD--he had ONE Hindu city, WTH? Suddenly we are on the right track again diplomatically.
And that pretty much brings me to the end of this spoiler. Because of slow scouting, I acutally didn't qualify to read or post to this thread until 720 AD, when I uncovered the rest of my continent with a flurry of map trading. I think I'm in pretty good shape (2nd to last in score, though), and I'm planning to try for a cultural victory. This will necessitate filling in some of the sparse areas of my empire with some coastal cities and also colonzing the frozen penninsula to my south. These cities will pretty much be glorifed churches so I can build my full repertoire of cathedrals. I hope I have time to finish this one up...I've had precious little Civ time this month!
Contender Class. Aim: first survive, then conquest.
I did not want a religion but some luxury resources, as stagnation has happened in my games only when my cities couldn’t grow because of the happiness limit. West being the only direction of expansion, I wanted a relatively early settler. Warrior NW, settled in place. A lot of hours working with spreadsheets before starting. The plan was:
Production: Worker-Boat-Warrior-Boat-Settler
Techs: Fish-Hunt-AH-Wheel-Pottery-BW
Worker: mine, then camp.
Micromanagement:
- When camped, used deer
- When pop2, deer+clams
- When pop3, deer+clams+mine
- When second boat, deer+2clams
- When pop4, deer+2clams+mine
I tried to make a Greek slave, but I couldn’t find their worker. Seeing that I was almost enclosed, and that the rival was Alex, decided to go for BW before Pottery, as Chariots are no good against him.
In 2320BC the second city was built, taking horses, marble and the all-important furs. Alex took the nice place near the wheat, so no more space to settle. When I saw the copper, it was just outside both my borders, so my third city was settled in 1880BC in a plains hill by the coast North of the copper. As all 9 tiles around it were mine, it was inside my border automatically.
As I had little money, good production and wonder bonus, I started Stonehenge in 1760BC to transform hammers into money. I even chopped trees for money.
Lots of pop-rushing, by pairs. I didn’t have the opportunity to try for the Oracle.
By 1200BC I had connected cooper and horses, and I finished Writing, putting 2 scientific specialists in it.
1000BC stats: 3cities, 10pop(9rushed), 4worker, 3War, 3Axe, 1workboat. Horses, Copper, almost Marble. 1Lux, 3health. 7+fpt, 17hpt, 19bpt,+0gpt, 6cpt. 6GPPpt. 0GP. 0WW. 0NW. 4cottages,1worked. Box: 38g, 196c. 2Gra, 1Lib, 2Obe, 3Barr. 9Techs: 5 1st level, 2 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th. 0religion. 4,5 horas(+4h spreadsheet).
Next turn I dowed Alex and took one of his cities.
When alphabet was researched, I traded it. The first scientific GP was joined to the capital, as that way I would produce more immediate beakers than with the Academy.
The last interesting fact before 500BC was the connection of Iron.
1AD stats: 7cities, 26pop(26whipped), 4worker,1Gal,1boat,13Milit(Swo). Horses, Iron, marble, copper, 3+2Lux, 4health. 9fpt, 37hpt, 69bpt,-29gpt, 35cpt, 31GPPpt. Box: 85g. 1Acad, 8 cottages worked. 20Techs: Calend, no CoL. 0religion. 1WW(GLib),2NW(both Epics),2GP. 13hours.
I did not want a religion but some luxury resources, as stagnation has happened in my games only when my cities couldn’t grow because of the happiness limit. West being the only direction of expansion, I wanted a relatively early settler. Warrior NW, settled in place. A lot of hours working with spreadsheets before starting. The plan was:
Production: Worker-Boat-Warrior-Boat-Settler
Techs: Fish-Hunt-AH-Wheel-Pottery-BW
Worker: mine, then camp.
Micromanagement:
- When camped, used deer
- When pop2, deer+clams
- When pop3, deer+clams+mine
- When second boat, deer+2clams
- When pop4, deer+2clams+mine
I tried to make a Greek slave, but I couldn’t find their worker. Seeing that I was almost enclosed, and that the rival was Alex, decided to go for BW before Pottery, as Chariots are no good against him.
In 2320BC the second city was built, taking horses, marble and the all-important furs. Alex took the nice place near the wheat, so no more space to settle. When I saw the copper, it was just outside both my borders, so my third city was settled in 1880BC in a plains hill by the coast North of the copper. As all 9 tiles around it were mine, it was inside my border automatically.
As I had little money, good production and wonder bonus, I started Stonehenge in 1760BC to transform hammers into money. I even chopped trees for money.
Lots of pop-rushing, by pairs. I didn’t have the opportunity to try for the Oracle.
By 1200BC I had connected cooper and horses, and I finished Writing, putting 2 scientific specialists in it.
1000BC stats: 3cities, 10pop(9rushed), 4worker, 3War, 3Axe, 1workboat. Horses, Copper, almost Marble. 1Lux, 3health. 7+fpt, 17hpt, 19bpt,+0gpt, 6cpt. 6GPPpt. 0GP. 0WW. 0NW. 4cottages,1worked. Box: 38g, 196c. 2Gra, 1Lib, 2Obe, 3Barr. 9Techs: 5 1st level, 2 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th. 0religion. 4,5 horas(+4h spreadsheet).
Next turn I dowed Alex and took one of his cities.
When alphabet was researched, I traded it. The first scientific GP was joined to the capital, as that way I would produce more immediate beakers than with the Academy.
The last interesting fact before 500BC was the connection of Iron.
1AD stats: 7cities, 26pop(26whipped), 4worker,1Gal,1boat,13Milit(Swo). Horses, Iron, marble, copper, 3+2Lux, 4health. 9fpt, 37hpt, 69bpt,-29gpt, 35cpt, 31GPPpt. Box: 85g. 1Acad, 8 cottages worked. 20Techs: Calend, no CoL. 0religion. 1WW(GLib),2NW(both Epics),2GP. 13hours.
Harok
Vagabond
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2005
- Messages
- 271
Goal
Domination victory. (Contender class)
City Placement
I considered moving East to have more hammers for building wonders but decided the early production bonus by founding in place was worth more. After seeing the fish just out of range and knowing how I planned to use Delhi it would have been huge to move that spot.
I founded Bombay (2640 BC) on the river to the East near the marble, copper, and what later turned out to have horses. And lastly I founded Madras (175 AD) south of Bombay in the ice to pick up the silver, copper, and fish.
These are the only cities I built the entire game the rest the AI built for me.
Research
I had so many things I wanted that deciding on what to go after was difficult. The main things I wanted was fishing for getting that extra food for Delhi, copper for axes and spears for early defense, Masonry to get the Pyramids, Priesthood for Oracle, Alphabet for trading, Literature for the Great Library, AND then Guilds for Knights where I planned to make a big military push.
Plus some sort of religion to help with happiness problems early on. Prioritizing all this lead me to the following research path:
Fishing - 3720 BC
Bronze - 3080 BC
Wheel - 2760 BC
Masonry - 2520 BC
Meditation - 2240 BC
Priesthood - 2000 BC
Writing - 1520 BC
Code of Laws - 1480 BC (Oracle)
Alphabet - 750 BC
Literature - 475 BC
Monotheism - 300 BC
Metal Casting - 50 AD
Feudalism - 350 AD
Gameplay Recap
As soon as I found Alex so close I knew I needed to try and slow his growth some so I declared war and stole his worker in 3520BC. He wiped out my warrior so I couldn't get peace with him easily which I would have liked. So I just had a fake war with him for awhile so I could build the early wonders I wanted. Some of the things I saw as the early keys to long term success with the land layout was the Pyramids so I could run representation early on and turn Delhi into a major research factory with Scientists specialists and joining lots of Great Scientists. I built almost no cottages and relied completely on Delhi to do all my research usually running 5 or 6 science specialists. The other part to this was building the Great Library in Delhi to enhance this idea so I made Lit a high priority and chopped the forests north of Delhi to complete the GL as soon as possible after getting Lit.
The last part of my early strategy was to get the Oracle for Code of Laws so I would found Conf. CoL was also the tech I traded around after I got Alphabet to catch up on all the lesser techs so I could keep a monopoly on Alpha for awhile.
On the war front I did put a stack of axes together and took out Athens in 175 BC but I lost a few axes and decided not to try for any more cities until Knights showed up when I planned to go full out war.
Assessment
I was pleased with my early game, especially my research which is what I focused on. I was able to grab all the early wonders I really wanted and felt like I was poised to wipe out Alex quickly and move right on to Vicky once Knights arrived.
Domination victory. (Contender class)
City Placement
I considered moving East to have more hammers for building wonders but decided the early production bonus by founding in place was worth more. After seeing the fish just out of range and knowing how I planned to use Delhi it would have been huge to move that spot.
I founded Bombay (2640 BC) on the river to the East near the marble, copper, and what later turned out to have horses. And lastly I founded Madras (175 AD) south of Bombay in the ice to pick up the silver, copper, and fish.
These are the only cities I built the entire game the rest the AI built for me.
Research
I had so many things I wanted that deciding on what to go after was difficult. The main things I wanted was fishing for getting that extra food for Delhi, copper for axes and spears for early defense, Masonry to get the Pyramids, Priesthood for Oracle, Alphabet for trading, Literature for the Great Library, AND then Guilds for Knights where I planned to make a big military push.
Plus some sort of religion to help with happiness problems early on. Prioritizing all this lead me to the following research path:
Fishing - 3720 BC
Bronze - 3080 BC
Wheel - 2760 BC
Masonry - 2520 BC
Meditation - 2240 BC
Priesthood - 2000 BC
Writing - 1520 BC
Code of Laws - 1480 BC (Oracle)
Alphabet - 750 BC
Literature - 475 BC
Monotheism - 300 BC
Metal Casting - 50 AD
Feudalism - 350 AD
Gameplay Recap
As soon as I found Alex so close I knew I needed to try and slow his growth some so I declared war and stole his worker in 3520BC. He wiped out my warrior so I couldn't get peace with him easily which I would have liked. So I just had a fake war with him for awhile so I could build the early wonders I wanted. Some of the things I saw as the early keys to long term success with the land layout was the Pyramids so I could run representation early on and turn Delhi into a major research factory with Scientists specialists and joining lots of Great Scientists. I built almost no cottages and relied completely on Delhi to do all my research usually running 5 or 6 science specialists. The other part to this was building the Great Library in Delhi to enhance this idea so I made Lit a high priority and chopped the forests north of Delhi to complete the GL as soon as possible after getting Lit.
The last part of my early strategy was to get the Oracle for Code of Laws so I would found Conf. CoL was also the tech I traded around after I got Alphabet to catch up on all the lesser techs so I could keep a monopoly on Alpha for awhile.
On the war front I did put a stack of axes together and took out Athens in 175 BC but I lost a few axes and decided not to try for any more cities until Knights showed up when I planned to go full out war.
Assessment
I was pleased with my early game, especially my research which is what I focused on. I was able to grab all the early wonders I really wanted and felt like I was poised to wipe out Alex quickly and move right on to Vicky once Knights arrived.
hendrikszoon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 60
Contender Class
This time I wanted to go for a medal again. So I tried again to "milk" my game. Also I had this month time enough. So it was not necessary to change my goal in the mid of the game.
First Steps
The starting position of this game was so good that it made no sense to walk around with the Settler. Another advantage of this "settling in place": it was also possible for me to play test games like I did in 4otM1 and 2.
The first decision was the one concerning the technology which had to research first. The two best positions for Citizens to work, were the two Clam tiles (with Fishing Boats they give 4 Food and 2 Gold). To build Farms would give me tiles with 3 Food or 2 Food and one Hammer, but no Gold. Consequently Agriculture - at least in the first game phase - was useless. Also the benefit of Animal Husbandry was marginal. So it made no sense to go my "normal" way - Agriculture and Animal Husbandry - to Writing. For the first turns I planned to have only one City. So Roads were not so important. Because Fishing was also better than Hunting, only four technologies came into question: Bronze Working, Polytheism, Meditation and Fishing.
There were only three Forests close to Delhi. I am sure nobody will disagree: It makes no sense to research Bronze Working only to get the ninety Hammers of three Forests. But there is another advantage of Bronze Working: When you find close to your Capital some Copper you would have a good chance of an early Axeman rush. But this would be gambling and I am not a gambler. So I decided to get Bronze Working later by trading.
Polytheism or Meditation would lead - if you are the first one who discover them - to the foundation of a religion. Because of Ghandi's Spiritual trait the conversion take place without revolt. So you wouldn't lost a turn. And especially in this environment an additional happy face given by a State Religion would help a lot. The disadvantage of starting with Polytheism or Meditation was the slow research pace. Only the eight Gold of the Palace and the one Gold of the City tile would count. To get early some additional Gold you have to start with Fishing. In this case - after the discover of Fishing - the two Clam tiles and the Lake tile would provide me directly with two Gold. And later - after you would have built Working Boats - the two Clam tiles would provide me with four Food.
I concentrated my test games on the Fishing start. The result was that I would have a good chance to be the first who discovers Polytheism when I do it in not more than 20 turns. In my test games I have had no chance to found Buddhism when there was at least one other Civilization starting with Mysticism. Thanks to my test games I knew that I would need seven turns to discover Fishing and then twelve turns for Polytheism. So I decided to start with Fishing (discovered in 3720BC) followed by Polytheism (3240BC). After discovering Polytheism, I immediately converted to Hinduism (3200BC).
Compared with the starting positions of the first three 4otMs this one was completely different. In all the other 4otMs my first trained unit was a Worker. This time it makes no sense, because the Worker wouldn't have to do anything (except to build one Mine). So I started with a Warrior, followed by a Work Boat and another Warrior. The first trained Warrior was sent out to rob Workers (no success), to find Goody Huts (little success) and to contact other Civilizations (full success). The second one was garrisoned in Delhi (full success).
The Work Boat was sent to the Clam tile southeast of Delhi and was converted to a Fishing Boat. It made no sense to build - for the second Clam tile - a second Work Boat because of the population limit (five with State Religion). After finishing the Library, I planned to have two Scientists. To provide a population of five Citizens with enough food the City needs ten Breads. In my game two of the ten Breads came from the City tile, two from the Lake tile, two from the Clam tile without Fishing Boat and four from the Clam tile with Fishing Boat.
In the meantime the starting Warrior robbed a Greek Worker. After robbing the Worker my Warrior was attacked by a Greek Archer. Because the Archer was killed in this fight I believed that it would become easy to get later a Peace Treaty from Alexander. But this time Alexander was not willing to make peace. So I had the same problem like in my 4otM3 after robbing the second Egyptian Worker. It seems that Worker Robbery is a dangerous business - at least at higher difficulty levels. But also it seems that the AI - at least at the beginning - acts very defensive. Alexander knew the location of my Capital (after robbing the second Worker a Greek Scout appeared at my borders), but he didn't sent an Archer stack to punish me.
For two reasons I decided not to rob a Worker from any other Civilization:
1. The way back, the Worker would have to go, was too long.
2. I needed the other contacted Civilizations for trading.
Further Development
After discovering Writing (2640BC) I went my usual way and researched Alphabet (1800BC). At this time I have had contact to five other Civilizations and three of them (Victoria, Saladin, Louis XIV) were willing to trade with me. So I could get Bronze Working, The Wheel, Agriculture, Masonry, Hunting and Animal Husbandry by trading. It was clear that Alexander didn't trade with me - I was still in war with him - but also Isabella didn't, because she had no contact to other Civilizations. So she believed that she would have a monopoly for every Technology I didn't had.
After discovering Alphabet, normally I research Literature to build The Great Library. Next step then is the Civil Service slingshot (Code of Laws, The Oracle). But it was clear to me that this would not work on Emperor level. So I reversed the order and researched at first Code of Laws, finished The Oracle in the same turn (1200BC), took Civil Service for free and switched to Bureaucracy (1160BC). Literature was discovered in 975BC and The Great Library finished in 850BC.
To accelerate the construction of all the Marble Buildings I founded my second City (Bombay, 1360BC) on the Plain Hill with the Marble. Another advantages of this location - a Plain Hill with Marble gives a base production of three Hammers - were the big number of Forest tiles around it and the Copper nearby. With only two chopped Forests The Oracle was finished. Also The Pyramids (800BC), The Parthenon (625BC) and Heroic Epic (325BC) were build in Bombay. Bombay became my recruitment center and Delhi my research center.
At 1AD Delhi was the best research center I have had build until now. It produced 184 Beakers per Turn. At this time Delhi was equipped with an Academy, a Library, three Monasteries, The Great Library, The Colossus (100BC) and The Great Lighthouse (225BC).
To get some Gold from the other Civilizations the next research steps were Mathematics (800BC) and Currency (600BC). The Gold I got by trading some Technologies allowed to have again 100% research. Later - after discovering Paper (100BC) - I got also Gold by Map trading.
Great People
Like in all other games before, my first Great Scientist (1360BC) was used to construct the Academy in Delhi. The second one (675BC) discovered Philosophy. With two Free Scientist (The Great Library), two "normal" Scientists, The Great Lighthouse, The Colossus, Philosophy and The Parthenon in Bombay, Delhi was not only a research center but also a Great People farm.
This time I didn't build National Epic in Delhi for two reasons:
1. Nevertheless Marble was available, it would have took some time to construct it. But this time the pipe was full with buildings - like The Colossus, The Great Lighthouse - which were important for fast research.
2. National Epic creates Great Artist points. So it becomes possible - not very possible, but possible - to get a Great Artist. A Great Artist was the last I want to get. Without National Epic in Delhi I could only get Great Scientist or Great Merchants.
Nevertheless I made a calculation mistake in my last spoiler I joined the third and the fourth Great Scientist to Delhi. The fifth one was saved to get later Scientific Methods much faster.
Aqueducts and The Hanging Gardens
The Hanging Gardens would add around 15000 points to my Final Score. So it was essential to prevent that any other Civilization would build this Wonder. On Empire difficulty this is really not easy - especially when you are not playing an aggressive strategy - because the AIs are developing very fast. So you need a good strategy.
The starting point for my considerations were - Aqueducts. The Hanging Gardens can only be build in cities which have an Aqueduct. So the prevention of Aqueducts would also prevent the construction of The Hanging Gardens. But how is it possible to prevent that the AIs build Aqueducts? Before you can respond to this question you have to find the answer of another question: When do the AIs build Aqueducts?
The answer to this second question is easy: The AIs build Aqueducts when they are necessary. This means when a city gets health problems. Normally health problems do not occur in cities with less than twelve Citizens. So you have to prevent a fast population growth of the other AI civilizations.
When an Aqueduct appears you have to attack the appropriate civilization. Usually it is sufficient to attack the Civilization with the Aqueduct. It is not necessary to conquer these Cities directly. After declaring War the attacked Civilization switch the production program from Civil to Military. Also the construction of - at least non military - Wonders is stopped and all resources are used to train military units. But nevertheless you should not make peace before you have conquered the Aqueduct city.
It is very difficult to attack Civilizations which are far away. So it is essential to care that the "far far away Civilizations" never build Aqueducts. But how can you prevent it. The answer is again WAR. War stops or delays not only the construction of Wonders, it seems it reduces also Population growth. So it was my goal to get the "far far away Civilizations" (Hatshepsut, Saladin, Louis XIV) into War.
Only Louis XIV was willing to declare War to other Civilizations. Now it was the question: Concerning my goal (The Hanging Gardens), which War would be the most efficient one. Elizabeth was not so far away. So it would be possible for me to react when I would see the first English Aqueduct. Also my relations to Elizabeth were very good and she could become my best trade partner. Isabella had only contact to me. So she was out of the race. Alexander was very weak and not a real threat. Also Louis was not willing to fight against Hatshepsut. So I declared War to Saladin and my next trade with Louis was Alphabet for Hunting, Pottery and War against Saladin. Also I declared War to Hatshepsut. So the three "far far away Civilizations" were in War now.
To be able to fight "Hanging Gardens Wars" it is important to have a strong task force very early. How should this task force looks like? In a "milking" game the goal is to get Biology as soon as possible. Monarchy, Feudalism and Guilds are not necessary on the way to Biology. It is the same with Music, Nationalism and Military Tradition. I decided to fight my wars without fast units like Knights or Cavalry. In the first phase - before Longbowmen appear on the battleground - I planned to do the job with Macemen. So the next research steps were Metal Casting (450BC) and Machinery (250BC) instead of Paper and Education. Later, Grenadiers would undertake the task of the Macemen.
In the whole game I never saw an Aqueduct built by another Civilization. Now I am not sure if this was the result of my strategy or if I have had only a little paranoia. Maybe the spoilers of other players will give me an answer.
The Beginning of the Wars of Conquest
The maintenance of a military task force costs a lot. Also it is later helpful when you have some units with high promotions which can become the spearhead of the attack forces. But early wars of conquest have one fundamental disadvantage: Your early Civilization can not maintain the conquered Cities. It is one of the main reasons I like Civilization IV: You need a perfect balance between conquest and development.
My first victim was the weak Alexander. I declared War on him at 100BC and got Thermopylae in the same turn. In the next turns I captured Athens (50AD) and Sparta (200AD). Then I made peace to prevent an overexpansion of my empire.
1AD Status
This time I wanted to go for a medal again. So I tried again to "milk" my game. Also I had this month time enough. So it was not necessary to change my goal in the mid of the game.
First Steps
The starting position of this game was so good that it made no sense to walk around with the Settler. Another advantage of this "settling in place": it was also possible for me to play test games like I did in 4otM1 and 2.
The first decision was the one concerning the technology which had to research first. The two best positions for Citizens to work, were the two Clam tiles (with Fishing Boats they give 4 Food and 2 Gold). To build Farms would give me tiles with 3 Food or 2 Food and one Hammer, but no Gold. Consequently Agriculture - at least in the first game phase - was useless. Also the benefit of Animal Husbandry was marginal. So it made no sense to go my "normal" way - Agriculture and Animal Husbandry - to Writing. For the first turns I planned to have only one City. So Roads were not so important. Because Fishing was also better than Hunting, only four technologies came into question: Bronze Working, Polytheism, Meditation and Fishing.
There were only three Forests close to Delhi. I am sure nobody will disagree: It makes no sense to research Bronze Working only to get the ninety Hammers of three Forests. But there is another advantage of Bronze Working: When you find close to your Capital some Copper you would have a good chance of an early Axeman rush. But this would be gambling and I am not a gambler. So I decided to get Bronze Working later by trading.
Polytheism or Meditation would lead - if you are the first one who discover them - to the foundation of a religion. Because of Ghandi's Spiritual trait the conversion take place without revolt. So you wouldn't lost a turn. And especially in this environment an additional happy face given by a State Religion would help a lot. The disadvantage of starting with Polytheism or Meditation was the slow research pace. Only the eight Gold of the Palace and the one Gold of the City tile would count. To get early some additional Gold you have to start with Fishing. In this case - after the discover of Fishing - the two Clam tiles and the Lake tile would provide me directly with two Gold. And later - after you would have built Working Boats - the two Clam tiles would provide me with four Food.
I concentrated my test games on the Fishing start. The result was that I would have a good chance to be the first who discovers Polytheism when I do it in not more than 20 turns. In my test games I have had no chance to found Buddhism when there was at least one other Civilization starting with Mysticism. Thanks to my test games I knew that I would need seven turns to discover Fishing and then twelve turns for Polytheism. So I decided to start with Fishing (discovered in 3720BC) followed by Polytheism (3240BC). After discovering Polytheism, I immediately converted to Hinduism (3200BC).
Compared with the starting positions of the first three 4otMs this one was completely different. In all the other 4otMs my first trained unit was a Worker. This time it makes no sense, because the Worker wouldn't have to do anything (except to build one Mine). So I started with a Warrior, followed by a Work Boat and another Warrior. The first trained Warrior was sent out to rob Workers (no success), to find Goody Huts (little success) and to contact other Civilizations (full success). The second one was garrisoned in Delhi (full success).
The Work Boat was sent to the Clam tile southeast of Delhi and was converted to a Fishing Boat. It made no sense to build - for the second Clam tile - a second Work Boat because of the population limit (five with State Religion). After finishing the Library, I planned to have two Scientists. To provide a population of five Citizens with enough food the City needs ten Breads. In my game two of the ten Breads came from the City tile, two from the Lake tile, two from the Clam tile without Fishing Boat and four from the Clam tile with Fishing Boat.
In the meantime the starting Warrior robbed a Greek Worker. After robbing the Worker my Warrior was attacked by a Greek Archer. Because the Archer was killed in this fight I believed that it would become easy to get later a Peace Treaty from Alexander. But this time Alexander was not willing to make peace. So I had the same problem like in my 4otM3 after robbing the second Egyptian Worker. It seems that Worker Robbery is a dangerous business - at least at higher difficulty levels. But also it seems that the AI - at least at the beginning - acts very defensive. Alexander knew the location of my Capital (after robbing the second Worker a Greek Scout appeared at my borders), but he didn't sent an Archer stack to punish me.
For two reasons I decided not to rob a Worker from any other Civilization:
1. The way back, the Worker would have to go, was too long.
2. I needed the other contacted Civilizations for trading.
Further Development
After discovering Writing (2640BC) I went my usual way and researched Alphabet (1800BC). At this time I have had contact to five other Civilizations and three of them (Victoria, Saladin, Louis XIV) were willing to trade with me. So I could get Bronze Working, The Wheel, Agriculture, Masonry, Hunting and Animal Husbandry by trading. It was clear that Alexander didn't trade with me - I was still in war with him - but also Isabella didn't, because she had no contact to other Civilizations. So she believed that she would have a monopoly for every Technology I didn't had.
After discovering Alphabet, normally I research Literature to build The Great Library. Next step then is the Civil Service slingshot (Code of Laws, The Oracle). But it was clear to me that this would not work on Emperor level. So I reversed the order and researched at first Code of Laws, finished The Oracle in the same turn (1200BC), took Civil Service for free and switched to Bureaucracy (1160BC). Literature was discovered in 975BC and The Great Library finished in 850BC.
To accelerate the construction of all the Marble Buildings I founded my second City (Bombay, 1360BC) on the Plain Hill with the Marble. Another advantages of this location - a Plain Hill with Marble gives a base production of three Hammers - were the big number of Forest tiles around it and the Copper nearby. With only two chopped Forests The Oracle was finished. Also The Pyramids (800BC), The Parthenon (625BC) and Heroic Epic (325BC) were build in Bombay. Bombay became my recruitment center and Delhi my research center.
At 1AD Delhi was the best research center I have had build until now. It produced 184 Beakers per Turn. At this time Delhi was equipped with an Academy, a Library, three Monasteries, The Great Library, The Colossus (100BC) and The Great Lighthouse (225BC).
To get some Gold from the other Civilizations the next research steps were Mathematics (800BC) and Currency (600BC). The Gold I got by trading some Technologies allowed to have again 100% research. Later - after discovering Paper (100BC) - I got also Gold by Map trading.
Great People
Like in all other games before, my first Great Scientist (1360BC) was used to construct the Academy in Delhi. The second one (675BC) discovered Philosophy. With two Free Scientist (The Great Library), two "normal" Scientists, The Great Lighthouse, The Colossus, Philosophy and The Parthenon in Bombay, Delhi was not only a research center but also a Great People farm.
This time I didn't build National Epic in Delhi for two reasons:
1. Nevertheless Marble was available, it would have took some time to construct it. But this time the pipe was full with buildings - like The Colossus, The Great Lighthouse - which were important for fast research.
2. National Epic creates Great Artist points. So it becomes possible - not very possible, but possible - to get a Great Artist. A Great Artist was the last I want to get. Without National Epic in Delhi I could only get Great Scientist or Great Merchants.
Nevertheless I made a calculation mistake in my last spoiler I joined the third and the fourth Great Scientist to Delhi. The fifth one was saved to get later Scientific Methods much faster.
Aqueducts and The Hanging Gardens
The Hanging Gardens would add around 15000 points to my Final Score. So it was essential to prevent that any other Civilization would build this Wonder. On Empire difficulty this is really not easy - especially when you are not playing an aggressive strategy - because the AIs are developing very fast. So you need a good strategy.
The starting point for my considerations were - Aqueducts. The Hanging Gardens can only be build in cities which have an Aqueduct. So the prevention of Aqueducts would also prevent the construction of The Hanging Gardens. But how is it possible to prevent that the AIs build Aqueducts? Before you can respond to this question you have to find the answer of another question: When do the AIs build Aqueducts?
The answer to this second question is easy: The AIs build Aqueducts when they are necessary. This means when a city gets health problems. Normally health problems do not occur in cities with less than twelve Citizens. So you have to prevent a fast population growth of the other AI civilizations.
When an Aqueduct appears you have to attack the appropriate civilization. Usually it is sufficient to attack the Civilization with the Aqueduct. It is not necessary to conquer these Cities directly. After declaring War the attacked Civilization switch the production program from Civil to Military. Also the construction of - at least non military - Wonders is stopped and all resources are used to train military units. But nevertheless you should not make peace before you have conquered the Aqueduct city.
It is very difficult to attack Civilizations which are far away. So it is essential to care that the "far far away Civilizations" never build Aqueducts. But how can you prevent it. The answer is again WAR. War stops or delays not only the construction of Wonders, it seems it reduces also Population growth. So it was my goal to get the "far far away Civilizations" (Hatshepsut, Saladin, Louis XIV) into War.
Only Louis XIV was willing to declare War to other Civilizations. Now it was the question: Concerning my goal (The Hanging Gardens), which War would be the most efficient one. Elizabeth was not so far away. So it would be possible for me to react when I would see the first English Aqueduct. Also my relations to Elizabeth were very good and she could become my best trade partner. Isabella had only contact to me. So she was out of the race. Alexander was very weak and not a real threat. Also Louis was not willing to fight against Hatshepsut. So I declared War to Saladin and my next trade with Louis was Alphabet for Hunting, Pottery and War against Saladin. Also I declared War to Hatshepsut. So the three "far far away Civilizations" were in War now.
To be able to fight "Hanging Gardens Wars" it is important to have a strong task force very early. How should this task force looks like? In a "milking" game the goal is to get Biology as soon as possible. Monarchy, Feudalism and Guilds are not necessary on the way to Biology. It is the same with Music, Nationalism and Military Tradition. I decided to fight my wars without fast units like Knights or Cavalry. In the first phase - before Longbowmen appear on the battleground - I planned to do the job with Macemen. So the next research steps were Metal Casting (450BC) and Machinery (250BC) instead of Paper and Education. Later, Grenadiers would undertake the task of the Macemen.
In the whole game I never saw an Aqueduct built by another Civilization. Now I am not sure if this was the result of my strategy or if I have had only a little paranoia. Maybe the spoilers of other players will give me an answer.
The Beginning of the Wars of Conquest
The maintenance of a military task force costs a lot. Also it is later helpful when you have some units with high promotions which can become the spearhead of the attack forces. But early wars of conquest have one fundamental disadvantage: Your early Civilization can not maintain the conquered Cities. It is one of the main reasons I like Civilization IV: You need a perfect balance between conquest and development.
My first victim was the weak Alexander. I declared War on him at 100BC and got Thermopylae in the same turn. In the next turns I captured Athens (50AD) and Sparta (200AD). Then I made peace to prevent an overexpansion of my empire.
1AD Status
Code:
Cities 3
Citizens 17
Fast Workers 4
Warriors 2
Swordsmen 1
Macemen 6
Academies 1
Barracks 1
Granaries 1
Forges 2
Academies 1
Libraries 1
Hindu Monasteries 1
Confucian Monasteries 1
Taoist Monasteries 1
Heroic Epic X
The Pyramids X
The Great Library X
The Great Lighthouse X
The Colossus X
The Oracle X
The Parthenon X
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Make that at least seven: finding the Greek worker to begin with, no counter-strike by Greece, the Oracle still available as late as that, I assume, but it's not in the report: the first to discover Code of Laws, and the marble spot still free so late. The unending war with Greece, presented as a setback, is of course really an advantage if they don't attack. And these are only the ones we know of.
hendrikszoon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 60
It seems that my spoiler this time was not detailed enough. So some other players have the impression I got my result only by a lot of luck. I will try to correct this - in my eyes - wrong impression.
It was a little bit luck that I could found Hinduism. The chance was only around 2:1 to my advantage. I say always that I am not a gambler. And to try something with a chance of only 2:1 seems to be gambling. Why I went nevertheless the Fishing Polytheism way? The problem is that the direct Polytheism way is not much better. Researching Polytheism first, I would have discovered it in 3320BC. This would have increased my chance to found Hinduism to around 7:2. But after discovering Polytheism I would have needed seven turns to research Fishing. So in this case I would left five turns and also I couldn't be sure to found Hinduism.
There is no doubt that it was only luck when my Warrior who robbed the Greek Worker killed the Archer. But the influence of this event on the whole game play - and the final result - was negligible.
Concerning the Oracle Public Service slingshot it looks a little bit different. The realization of this slingshot has a huge impact on the result. And it is right that it is very unlikely that on Emperor level at 1200BC the AI have not build The Oracle. But this applies only for "normal" games. In a "normal" game you don't try to influence the behavior of the AI Civilizations. But I try in every game to alter their bevavior to my advantage. I will use the Oracle Public Service slingshot to explain my approach.
It was clear to me with a "normal" game play a successful Oracle Public Service slingshot would be very unlikely. To find a solution for this problem I started a series of test games. For all these test games I used the same Game Settings (Emperor Level, Ice Age, Standard Map, Normal Speed, Wide Continents) as used for 4otM4.
In the first part of my test series I tried to find out if there any dependencies between the traits of a leader and his preference to build The Oracle early. For this I played with only one artifical Civilization on the map. But I found nothing. Nevertheless there was an interesting result. The Oracle was never constructed before 1080BC.
From another test game with the real starting position I knew that I would have discovered Alphabet somewhere between 1800BC (best case) and 1600BC. Then I would need again aroung 15 turns to get Code of Laws. So The Oracle had to be available at least at around 1200BC. From the second part of my test series - with six AIs - I knew that the chance to be succesful was only less than 20%. Under these circumstances it would have made no sense to try it.
But I can influence the behavior of the AIs. I explained it already in the "Aqueducts and The Hanging Gardens" chapter of my spoiler: You can delay the construction of AI Wonders by declaring war.
From the last part of my test games series I found out that a War not only influences the development of the involved but also neighbored Civilizations. I don't really understand this and I made only two test games, but I believe that there is a dependency.
Now I will summarize the results: The chance of an early construction of The Oracle when all the AI Civilizations are in War (Greek, Arabia, Egypt, France), neihbored to Wars (England) or isolated (Spain) is close to zero.
For this little article I made two additional tests to find out: "By whom and at which time The Oracle would be built without Wars?" and "By whom and at which time The Oracle would be built with Wars when I wouldn't have built it?"
Here are the answers for my game: In the first case The Oracle was built by Victoria in 1360BC and in the second case it was built again by Victoria but in 975BC. So these results seem again to approve my assumption. But the dependencies are too complex to be really sure.
It seems that I could settle on the Marble Plain Hill so late, was also only luck. But it wasn't. One advantage of Worker Robbery is to get additional Workers. But at least at higher difficulty levels this is not the main advantage. The second advantage - in my eyes the more relevant advantage - is that the concerned Civilization - in this game Greek - is thrown back in its development. In result the Civilization will send out its Settlers much later than it did without Worker Robbery. So the fact that Alexander didn't settle on the Plain Marble Hill in my game was not luck, it was the result of Worker Robbery.
Concerning the foundation of Taoism: I was really the first one who discovered Code of Laws. But until now there were no test or competition game where I wasn't the first who discovered Code of Laws. And I am sure that every better player - not only the top players - have also success when (s)he is going the direct way like I do.
Last point: It was also no luck that my Warrior found the Greek Worker, because he didn't search him. In truth the Worker came to the Warrior.
It was a little bit luck that I could found Hinduism. The chance was only around 2:1 to my advantage. I say always that I am not a gambler. And to try something with a chance of only 2:1 seems to be gambling. Why I went nevertheless the Fishing Polytheism way? The problem is that the direct Polytheism way is not much better. Researching Polytheism first, I would have discovered it in 3320BC. This would have increased my chance to found Hinduism to around 7:2. But after discovering Polytheism I would have needed seven turns to research Fishing. So in this case I would left five turns and also I couldn't be sure to found Hinduism.
There is no doubt that it was only luck when my Warrior who robbed the Greek Worker killed the Archer. But the influence of this event on the whole game play - and the final result - was negligible.
Concerning the Oracle Public Service slingshot it looks a little bit different. The realization of this slingshot has a huge impact on the result. And it is right that it is very unlikely that on Emperor level at 1200BC the AI have not build The Oracle. But this applies only for "normal" games. In a "normal" game you don't try to influence the behavior of the AI Civilizations. But I try in every game to alter their bevavior to my advantage. I will use the Oracle Public Service slingshot to explain my approach.
It was clear to me with a "normal" game play a successful Oracle Public Service slingshot would be very unlikely. To find a solution for this problem I started a series of test games. For all these test games I used the same Game Settings (Emperor Level, Ice Age, Standard Map, Normal Speed, Wide Continents) as used for 4otM4.
In the first part of my test series I tried to find out if there any dependencies between the traits of a leader and his preference to build The Oracle early. For this I played with only one artifical Civilization on the map. But I found nothing. Nevertheless there was an interesting result. The Oracle was never constructed before 1080BC.
From another test game with the real starting position I knew that I would have discovered Alphabet somewhere between 1800BC (best case) and 1600BC. Then I would need again aroung 15 turns to get Code of Laws. So The Oracle had to be available at least at around 1200BC. From the second part of my test series - with six AIs - I knew that the chance to be succesful was only less than 20%. Under these circumstances it would have made no sense to try it.
But I can influence the behavior of the AIs. I explained it already in the "Aqueducts and The Hanging Gardens" chapter of my spoiler: You can delay the construction of AI Wonders by declaring war.
From the last part of my test games series I found out that a War not only influences the development of the involved but also neighbored Civilizations. I don't really understand this and I made only two test games, but I believe that there is a dependency.
Now I will summarize the results: The chance of an early construction of The Oracle when all the AI Civilizations are in War (Greek, Arabia, Egypt, France), neihbored to Wars (England) or isolated (Spain) is close to zero.
For this little article I made two additional tests to find out: "By whom and at which time The Oracle would be built without Wars?" and "By whom and at which time The Oracle would be built with Wars when I wouldn't have built it?"
Here are the answers for my game: In the first case The Oracle was built by Victoria in 1360BC and in the second case it was built again by Victoria but in 975BC. So these results seem again to approve my assumption. But the dependencies are too complex to be really sure.
It seems that I could settle on the Marble Plain Hill so late, was also only luck. But it wasn't. One advantage of Worker Robbery is to get additional Workers. But at least at higher difficulty levels this is not the main advantage. The second advantage - in my eyes the more relevant advantage - is that the concerned Civilization - in this game Greek - is thrown back in its development. In result the Civilization will send out its Settlers much later than it did without Worker Robbery. So the fact that Alexander didn't settle on the Plain Marble Hill in my game was not luck, it was the result of Worker Robbery.
Concerning the foundation of Taoism: I was really the first one who discovered Code of Laws. But until now there were no test or competition game where I wasn't the first who discovered Code of Laws. And I am sure that every better player - not only the top players - have also success when (s)he is going the direct way like I do.
Last point: It was also no luck that my Warrior found the Greek Worker, because he didn't search him. In truth the Worker came to the Warrior.
@hendrickzoon
I simply pointed out two early lucky dice rolls that cause the rest of the game to diverge significantly, and none of the other reports I've read (though I have only read a smallish fraction) got lucky with both. No inferences whatsoever are made or implied about what result you would have got without them.
In many games it was not possible to get poly at all, whether going direct or via fishing. Having poly, vs another team having poly and your perhaps not getting any religious influx until thousands of years later in order to boost happiness, has a very large effect on the way the game plays.
The warrior surviving the worker steal and thus still being able to make contacts before Alex (now at war) border-expands to seal you in does make a significant difference because it directly affects who you can trade tech with when Alphabet is discovered, and also because "knowing your opponents" early is necessary in order to influence or second guess the AI.
I simply pointed out two early lucky dice rolls that cause the rest of the game to diverge significantly, and none of the other reports I've read (though I have only read a smallish fraction) got lucky with both. No inferences whatsoever are made or implied about what result you would have got without them.
In many games it was not possible to get poly at all, whether going direct or via fishing. Having poly, vs another team having poly and your perhaps not getting any religious influx until thousands of years later in order to boost happiness, has a very large effect on the way the game plays.
The warrior surviving the worker steal and thus still being able to make contacts before Alex (now at war) border-expands to seal you in does make a significant difference because it directly affects who you can trade tech with when Alphabet is discovered, and also because "knowing your opponents" early is necessary in order to influence or second guess the AI.
Great game hendricszoon! You had quite a bit of luck, but the game itself was still great as usual.
Now this is very interesting, but definitely needs some more testing. I wonder how deep into the tech tree one can go before building the Oracle in a warlord game
Obormot said:Great game hendricszoon! You had quite a bit of luck, but the game itself was still great as usual.
Now this is very interesting, but definitely needs some more testing. I wonder how deep into the tech tree one can go before building the Oracle in a warlord game
For a joke , or maybe out of
on missing it in GOTM4 I am going to try and nab liberalism with it 
On another note hendrikszoon great game, and what others amy call luck I call consequence. Now I am not arguing the existance of 'luck', but doesn't it always seem that the 'winners' (in sport for example) had all the good luck?
Memphus said:
At the end of the day all the things you can do to "influence" the AI are simply doing just that, influencing. They are not causing a particular outcome, only increasing its likelyhood. For instance, in my game, I stole a worker from greece to start out, but they still plopped their very first city next to the marble, restricting my expanation opportunities in 2900 BC. Then, despite neighboring greece being embroiled in war, Victoria still completed the Oracle in around 1300-1400 BC.
I attempted to improve my odds of meeting my goals, but I just got a few unlucky rolls. For instance, Vicky getting the oracle gave her very early longbowmen. This put an immediate stop to my advancement through Greek territory (crushing the Greek cities along the way) and into hers. It meant that my next war had to be either across the narrow sea with Spain or on the other side of the continent against Arabia. Not exactly ideal for early wars.
Could I have played better? Undoubtedly. Could other players have scored better given the same situation? Without question. Did luck influence my performance in the game? I believe so, as it did with everyone's.
Qitai
.
Contender
Well, I did not submit as I do not have enough time to complete the game but I will report my game anyway since I think I have a great game with the possibility to get a domination win around or slightly after 1000 AD. The game is currently at 700 AD. One amazing thing I have done for this game also is that since the game did not crash nor had I any need to save and exit the game, this game is played in a single session so far.
Now, onto the game.
Initial build and worker wars
--------------------------------------
My initial build are warrior, work boat, warrior work boat, warrior, settler then pretty much settler after that. No worker was build at all since I got all my workers from Greek and English. The first warrior went west to meet Greek, saw the cow and decided to wait there for the worker who would eventually show up. It did not have to wait long, with the worker appearing immediately the turn after (3600 BC), war Greek and disband my warrior as I do not want to take my chances on losing a warrior and thus unable to get peace with Greek. The next (build) warrior avoids Greek and went northbound for exploration with a Greek archer following its every step. But it manage to pop the hut (3320 BC) just north of Greek to find a scout and eventually shake off the archer when the archer meets some barbarian (I think). This warrior continues west to eventually meet up with the English and grab another worker from the English (2880 BC). The scout that was popped, moved north and got the following:
Turn 18 (3280 BC) a little gold - 45 if I remember correctly
Turn 26 (2960 BC) technology - Masonry, didn't really help much at all except save me 2 trees for the Oracle
As a summary, I got the following workers from Greek and English in these years:
3600 BC Greek Worker
2880 BC English worker
2360 BC Greek Worker
1720 BC Greek Worker
1000 BC Greek Worker
In total, I declared on Greek 4-5 times using warriors to constantly look out for their workers in spots I think they will place their workers (Resources, rivers and hills usually). And for each worker grabbed, if the spot can be reached within one turn from their city, I will disband the warrior so that I can make peace with Greek later. The worker grabbing thus frees up my production from producing any workers at all. In fact, I did not build any worker until 540 AD.
Technology
----------------
On the technology front, the plan for me is always research what benefits me most. I had planned for going for Priesthood, writing oracle route ASAP initially. But the worker capture makes me rethink about it and I have decided to go for hunting which is cheap and provides me with two additional food per turn. And after wheel, another cheap tech which allows me to build road to get 2 commernce per turn from trade (Delhi and Bombay). The road is essentially free since I would have nothing for the worker to do otherwise. After that, it is as originally planned by going Polytheism, Priesthood, writing and then alphabet from Oracle. From here, the plan change again since Spain got Code of Law even before I could start my research on it. So, not going to go that route once I see that. I went Literature for Great Library followed-by Metal Casting instead since India is industrial. The cheap Forge (happiness, 25% production) and Colussus would help greatly in growth, whipping (allows jump to 60 hammer per pop) and commernce (Colussus).
On the tech trade front, knowing this is emperor, I tech trade only techs I need. So, tech like Archery and Meditation was never traded since I had absolutely no use for it, choosing to research it much later when I had spare research points.
Turn 7 (3720 BC) Fishing
Turn 14 (3440 BC) Hunting
Turn 23 (3080 BC) The Wheel
Turn 26 (2960 BC) Masonry
Turn 37 (2520 BC) Bronze Working
Turn 45 (2200 BC) Polytheism
Turn 52 (1920 BC) Priesthood
Turn 60 (1600 BC) Writing
Turn 61 (1560 BC) Alphabet, Pottery, Animal Husbandry
Turn 72 (1120 BC) Sailing, Literature
Turn 81 (850 BC) Agriculture
Turn 91 (600 BC) Metal Casting
Turn 100 (375 BC) Monarchy
Turn 101 (350 BC) Iron Working
Turn 103 (300 BC) Mathematics
Turn 108 (175 BC) Currency
Turn 109 (150 BC) Monotheism
Turn 111 (100 BC) Code of Laws
Turn 114 (25 BC) Calendar
Turn 115 (0 AD) Civil Service
Turn 118 (75 AD) Construction
Turn 120 (125 AD) Drama
Turn 121 (150 AD) Music, Meditation
Turn 122 (175 AD) Theology
Turn 125 (250 AD) Machinery
Turn 133 (450 AD) Engineering
Great Person
------------------
Having seen how others have use the early GP to great effect, I decided to use it myself and since India is industrial, the plan is to just get GPP from building wonders. So, Bombay went aggresive for Stonehedge, Oracle, Great Library and National Epic. Together, these already gives me 30 GPP per turn without assigning any specialist, producing the below Great Persons. The only mistake I made I guess is to build the Hero Epic as well which gives me that Great Artist which I do not want and had to think of the optimal use of it which I concluded was to get to Theology first. I had to intentionally research Drama and Meditation in order to get this effect of getting Music from the first Artist and then using the second to get Theology. For those wondering how I know what tech the Great Artist gives me, check out tech flavor file which Dave posted in the article section. Below are the Great Person I got.
Great Prophet 875 BC (Super Specialist)
Great Scientist 600 BC (Super Specialist)
Great Scientist 300 BC (Academy)
Great Artist 75 AD (Music)
Great Artist 150 AD (From Music, use to get Theology)
Cities
-----------------
On cities, I am against the flow of thinking that an empire should be intentionally keep small to avoid upkeep cost. My stand is that as long as you got great city sites which gives commernce, it will cover the cost easily. These sites includes mostly coastal sites with seafood and luxury resources which gives happiness as well. Rvier sites with food are great too but does seems lacking in this game. The first two cities are predictable (settler on spot for Delhi and next to marble, deer) since it is exactly where everyone would naturally build their cities. The third, I went for the icy south beside the fur and deer instead of wheat or cow or Dye which some may have chosen. The fourth goes further south to the site beside the fish and silver. The fifth goes for the other fish just west of the fur, but taking the southern ice site instead of the easy northern tundra site. The purpose is to both create a sealane as well as to get more water tiles over getting more tundra tiles. The sixth goes for the site two east of the wheat, but the purpose is not the wheat, but rather to build the great lighthouse which would give me a big boost for my mostly coastal empire. The seven goes inland to show the deer with Bombay. This on reflection is possibile a bad choice. The eight goes on a long trip to the ivory coast. The site is right, but it was too early when I settle there due to Barbarian city in between, I wasn't able to use the ivory until I build a road all the way from my existing empire. The ninth should have been build before the eighth and it is further into the icy south to get the crab. I guess this is already too much detail.
The above, I would like to illustrate is that although I have 11 cities, I had no problem with commernce since all of the above cities easily produces 14 commerence at just size 3 (4 from trade (Great Lighthouse), 10 from tile (3*3 from sea tile with colussus + 1 from base). And with fish/crab/deer, they grow to size 3 easily. Also, by this time, Delhi is already size 10 due to these aggresive expansion, resource trade and forge.
Turn 0 (4000 BC) Delhi
Turn 36 (2560 BC) Bombay - Marble, deer
Turn 44 (2240 BC) Madras - Fur, Deer
Turn 55 (1800 BC) Bangalore - Silver, Fish
Turn 65 (1400 BC) Calcutta - Fish
Turn 76 (975 BC) Lahore - Wheat (Great Lighthouse)
Turn 90 (625 BC) Karachi - Deer Sharing with Bombay, Second Marble
Turn 93 (550 BC) Kolhapur - Ivory
Turn 98 (425 BC) Jaipur - Crab
Turn 101 (350 BC) Thermoplae (Greek) - Gem
Turn 112 (75 BC) Athens (Greek)
Turn 119 (100 AD) Hyderabad - Banana
Turn 121 (150 AD) Sarmatian (Barbarian)
Turn 125 (250 AD) Goth (Barbarian)
Turn 127 (300 AD) Bengal - Sheep - Spanish northern west Tundra
Turn 128 (325 AD) Canterbury (English)
Turn 133 (450 AD) Notingham (English)
Turn 133 (450 AD) York (English)
Contact
-------------
Summary of contact made.
Turn 9 (3640 BC) Greek Empire
Turn 24 (3040 BC) French Empire
Turn 26 (2960 BC) English Empire
Turn 32 (2720 BC) Arabian Empire
Turn 39 (2440 BC) Spanish Empire
Turn 122 (175 AD) Egyptian Empire
WAR
-------------
As mentioned earlier, I had a 4-5 wars with Greek by 1 AD. In fact, due to this, Greek never grew much. And he was eliminated by 75BC when Athens is captured. One thing I learn from this early war is that Chariots can be very useful in the early war due to their cheap cost and retreat ability. I used it to soften up the defense before my axeman goes for the kill. This works well for me with mostly just a couple chariot losses at most during city capture. And if lucky, no losses since they can retreat well. A 5 XP chariot with two flanking promotion has 50% chance of retreat after causing the damage the axeman needs to go in for the kill. This definately works out to be cheaper than building a settler to create new cities. In addition, they can heal and still move to the front line in time for the next attack. After eliminating Greek, I took some time off on the Barbarian before going for the English. It turns out they are tougher!! than the AI civilization since Sarmatian had walls (50%), was on a hill (25%) surronded by three rivers (25%) with a fortified (25%) city garrison II archer!! (95%) for a total of 240% bonus!! Loss four chariots just to get this bugger down to a range that my axeman can attack.
After that, it is the English which I had just concluded my war with one city remaining. I had to end this war to start another with Arab and French just to eliminate WW whichis starting to cause some unhappiness in the backyard.
That is it for now. It is 700 AD now and I am still continuing my domination/conquest.
Well, I did not submit as I do not have enough time to complete the game but I will report my game anyway since I think I have a great game with the possibility to get a domination win around or slightly after 1000 AD. The game is currently at 700 AD. One amazing thing I have done for this game also is that since the game did not crash nor had I any need to save and exit the game, this game is played in a single session so far.
Code:
Stats at 1AD
--------------------
11 cities
8 workers
1 warrior
2 swordman
3 axeman
9 chariots
1 workboat
1 Galley
3 Barrack
9 Granary
7 Forge
1 Academy
2 Library
1 Hindu Temple
Stonehedge 1880 BC
Oracle 1600 BC
Great Library 875 BC
Great Lighthouse 800 BC
National Epic 700 BC
Colussus 400 BC
Hero Epic 125 BC (This was a mistake, I realize later since it is build in Bombay which is used as the GP Farm)
GDP 85 (+6 gold, +5 science and +6 science from super specialist and G. Library for a total of 102)
[ATTACH]122090.vB[/ATTACH]
Hmm.. how do I make the image larger?Initial build and worker wars
--------------------------------------
My initial build are warrior, work boat, warrior work boat, warrior, settler then pretty much settler after that. No worker was build at all since I got all my workers from Greek and English. The first warrior went west to meet Greek, saw the cow and decided to wait there for the worker who would eventually show up. It did not have to wait long, with the worker appearing immediately the turn after (3600 BC), war Greek and disband my warrior as I do not want to take my chances on losing a warrior and thus unable to get peace with Greek. The next (build) warrior avoids Greek and went northbound for exploration with a Greek archer following its every step. But it manage to pop the hut (3320 BC) just north of Greek to find a scout and eventually shake off the archer when the archer meets some barbarian (I think). This warrior continues west to eventually meet up with the English and grab another worker from the English (2880 BC). The scout that was popped, moved north and got the following:
Turn 18 (3280 BC) a little gold - 45 if I remember correctly
Turn 26 (2960 BC) technology - Masonry, didn't really help much at all except save me 2 trees for the Oracle
As a summary, I got the following workers from Greek and English in these years:
3600 BC Greek Worker
2880 BC English worker
2360 BC Greek Worker
1720 BC Greek Worker
1000 BC Greek Worker
In total, I declared on Greek 4-5 times using warriors to constantly look out for their workers in spots I think they will place their workers (Resources, rivers and hills usually). And for each worker grabbed, if the spot can be reached within one turn from their city, I will disband the warrior so that I can make peace with Greek later. The worker grabbing thus frees up my production from producing any workers at all. In fact, I did not build any worker until 540 AD.
Technology
----------------
On the technology front, the plan for me is always research what benefits me most. I had planned for going for Priesthood, writing oracle route ASAP initially. But the worker capture makes me rethink about it and I have decided to go for hunting which is cheap and provides me with two additional food per turn. And after wheel, another cheap tech which allows me to build road to get 2 commernce per turn from trade (Delhi and Bombay). The road is essentially free since I would have nothing for the worker to do otherwise. After that, it is as originally planned by going Polytheism, Priesthood, writing and then alphabet from Oracle. From here, the plan change again since Spain got Code of Law even before I could start my research on it. So, not going to go that route once I see that. I went Literature for Great Library followed-by Metal Casting instead since India is industrial. The cheap Forge (happiness, 25% production) and Colussus would help greatly in growth, whipping (allows jump to 60 hammer per pop) and commernce (Colussus).
On the tech trade front, knowing this is emperor, I tech trade only techs I need. So, tech like Archery and Meditation was never traded since I had absolutely no use for it, choosing to research it much later when I had spare research points.
Turn 7 (3720 BC) Fishing
Turn 14 (3440 BC) Hunting
Turn 23 (3080 BC) The Wheel
Turn 26 (2960 BC) Masonry
Turn 37 (2520 BC) Bronze Working
Turn 45 (2200 BC) Polytheism
Turn 52 (1920 BC) Priesthood
Turn 60 (1600 BC) Writing
Turn 61 (1560 BC) Alphabet, Pottery, Animal Husbandry
Turn 72 (1120 BC) Sailing, Literature
Turn 81 (850 BC) Agriculture
Turn 91 (600 BC) Metal Casting
Turn 100 (375 BC) Monarchy
Turn 101 (350 BC) Iron Working
Turn 103 (300 BC) Mathematics
Turn 108 (175 BC) Currency
Turn 109 (150 BC) Monotheism
Turn 111 (100 BC) Code of Laws
Turn 114 (25 BC) Calendar
Turn 115 (0 AD) Civil Service
Turn 118 (75 AD) Construction
Turn 120 (125 AD) Drama
Turn 121 (150 AD) Music, Meditation
Turn 122 (175 AD) Theology
Turn 125 (250 AD) Machinery
Turn 133 (450 AD) Engineering
Great Person
------------------
Having seen how others have use the early GP to great effect, I decided to use it myself and since India is industrial, the plan is to just get GPP from building wonders. So, Bombay went aggresive for Stonehedge, Oracle, Great Library and National Epic. Together, these already gives me 30 GPP per turn without assigning any specialist, producing the below Great Persons. The only mistake I made I guess is to build the Hero Epic as well which gives me that Great Artist which I do not want and had to think of the optimal use of it which I concluded was to get to Theology first. I had to intentionally research Drama and Meditation in order to get this effect of getting Music from the first Artist and then using the second to get Theology. For those wondering how I know what tech the Great Artist gives me, check out tech flavor file which Dave posted in the article section. Below are the Great Person I got.
Great Prophet 875 BC (Super Specialist)
Great Scientist 600 BC (Super Specialist)
Great Scientist 300 BC (Academy)
Great Artist 75 AD (Music)
Great Artist 150 AD (From Music, use to get Theology)
Cities
-----------------
On cities, I am against the flow of thinking that an empire should be intentionally keep small to avoid upkeep cost. My stand is that as long as you got great city sites which gives commernce, it will cover the cost easily. These sites includes mostly coastal sites with seafood and luxury resources which gives happiness as well. Rvier sites with food are great too but does seems lacking in this game. The first two cities are predictable (settler on spot for Delhi and next to marble, deer) since it is exactly where everyone would naturally build their cities. The third, I went for the icy south beside the fur and deer instead of wheat or cow or Dye which some may have chosen. The fourth goes further south to the site beside the fish and silver. The fifth goes for the other fish just west of the fur, but taking the southern ice site instead of the easy northern tundra site. The purpose is to both create a sealane as well as to get more water tiles over getting more tundra tiles. The sixth goes for the site two east of the wheat, but the purpose is not the wheat, but rather to build the great lighthouse which would give me a big boost for my mostly coastal empire. The seven goes inland to show the deer with Bombay. This on reflection is possibile a bad choice. The eight goes on a long trip to the ivory coast. The site is right, but it was too early when I settle there due to Barbarian city in between, I wasn't able to use the ivory until I build a road all the way from my existing empire. The ninth should have been build before the eighth and it is further into the icy south to get the crab. I guess this is already too much detail.
The above, I would like to illustrate is that although I have 11 cities, I had no problem with commernce since all of the above cities easily produces 14 commerence at just size 3 (4 from trade (Great Lighthouse), 10 from tile (3*3 from sea tile with colussus + 1 from base). And with fish/crab/deer, they grow to size 3 easily. Also, by this time, Delhi is already size 10 due to these aggresive expansion, resource trade and forge.
Turn 0 (4000 BC) Delhi
Turn 36 (2560 BC) Bombay - Marble, deer
Turn 44 (2240 BC) Madras - Fur, Deer
Turn 55 (1800 BC) Bangalore - Silver, Fish
Turn 65 (1400 BC) Calcutta - Fish
Turn 76 (975 BC) Lahore - Wheat (Great Lighthouse)
Turn 90 (625 BC) Karachi - Deer Sharing with Bombay, Second Marble
Turn 93 (550 BC) Kolhapur - Ivory
Turn 98 (425 BC) Jaipur - Crab
Turn 101 (350 BC) Thermoplae (Greek) - Gem
Turn 112 (75 BC) Athens (Greek)
Turn 119 (100 AD) Hyderabad - Banana
Turn 121 (150 AD) Sarmatian (Barbarian)
Turn 125 (250 AD) Goth (Barbarian)
Turn 127 (300 AD) Bengal - Sheep - Spanish northern west Tundra
Turn 128 (325 AD) Canterbury (English)
Turn 133 (450 AD) Notingham (English)
Turn 133 (450 AD) York (English)
Contact
-------------
Summary of contact made.
Turn 9 (3640 BC) Greek Empire
Turn 24 (3040 BC) French Empire
Turn 26 (2960 BC) English Empire
Turn 32 (2720 BC) Arabian Empire
Turn 39 (2440 BC) Spanish Empire
Turn 122 (175 AD) Egyptian Empire
WAR
-------------
As mentioned earlier, I had a 4-5 wars with Greek by 1 AD. In fact, due to this, Greek never grew much. And he was eliminated by 75BC when Athens is captured. One thing I learn from this early war is that Chariots can be very useful in the early war due to their cheap cost and retreat ability. I used it to soften up the defense before my axeman goes for the kill. This works well for me with mostly just a couple chariot losses at most during city capture. And if lucky, no losses since they can retreat well. A 5 XP chariot with two flanking promotion has 50% chance of retreat after causing the damage the axeman needs to go in for the kill. This definately works out to be cheaper than building a settler to create new cities. In addition, they can heal and still move to the front line in time for the next attack. After eliminating Greek, I took some time off on the Barbarian before going for the English. It turns out they are tougher!! than the AI civilization since Sarmatian had walls (50%), was on a hill (25%) surronded by three rivers (25%) with a fortified (25%) city garrison II archer!! (95%) for a total of 240% bonus!! Loss four chariots just to get this bugger down to a range that my axeman can attack.
After that, it is the English which I had just concluded my war with one city remaining. I had to end this war to start another with Arab and French just to eliminate WW whichis starting to cause some unhappiness in the backyard.
That is it for now. It is 700 AD now and I am still continuing my domination/conquest.
Attachments
Intriguing game, Qitai! 
My research path for the first 100 turns was nearly the same, although I took CoL with the Oracle instead of Alpha. (And I only built 3 cities, incorporating the deer into the silver/fish city.)
Oh, and in my previous games the AI tends to guard workers with archers after you stole their first one, even if there's peace again. Maybe it's different with Alex, or on Emperor?
I understand continously crippling Alex is safe and great for your initial performance...but are sure it doesn't hurt in the long run? It looks you only got 2 greek cities - maybe even without terraing improvements. In my game Alex was gone 125AD, but I got a total of 5 quite well improved cities from him...otoh, I practically didn't have the time to built more than 1-2 settlers BC as I was busy with wonders and especially with getting a big enough army.
The chariot approach sounds interesting, it might be worth comparing to just axes in terms of costs...in my experience chariots with less than flanking II simply don't retreat often enough.
And a final question: Why Superscientist first, Academy later? Delhi must have produced more than 12 beakers on 1000BC, or not?
My research path for the first 100 turns was nearly the same, although I took CoL with the Oracle instead of Alpha. (And I only built 3 cities, incorporating the deer into the silver/fish city.)
Can you explain why that works? I always thought peace negotiations are only based on current military power. Disbanding the warrior is certainly wise in order to prevent archer promotions, but why would the AI be more willing to have peace?!?Qitai said:
Oh, and in my previous games the AI tends to guard workers with archers after you stole their first one, even if there's peace again. Maybe it's different with Alex, or on Emperor?
I understand continously crippling Alex is safe and great for your initial performance...but are sure it doesn't hurt in the long run? It looks you only got 2 greek cities - maybe even without terraing improvements. In my game Alex was gone 125AD, but I got a total of 5 quite well improved cities from him...otoh, I practically didn't have the time to built more than 1-2 settlers BC as I was busy with wonders and especially with getting a big enough army.
The chariot approach sounds interesting, it might be worth comparing to just axes in terms of costs...in my experience chariots with less than flanking II simply don't retreat often enough.
And a final question: Why Superscientist first, Academy later? Delhi must have produced more than 12 beakers on 1000BC, or not?
Qitai
.
Peace offer has always been based on comparative damage inflicted on both sides (cause by combat between warring party, not disband or versus barbarian) since one of the earlier civ. This seems to have persist into Civ 4. So, peace offer negotiation is always on "how much you lost to them" versus "how much they loss to you". By disbanding, I loss nothing to them and they loss a worker to me. So, they will be willing to peace without a price in this case after some turns passed.
As for the guarded worker, I never observed that. Perhaps, others may want to give their observation on that. My observation has always been they are pretty much always left unguarded.
Actually, Greek has 3 cities, I raze the first as it was not in a spot I like where it would have been a net expense to my empire even considering mid-term. As for having less improved cities, well, I got the workers to improve my lot instead. My core cities can support 8 or more popoulation by 1AD and I sure need the worker for myself.
I think I was already running like 50% science at that time to break even on cash, although I still have a high net income. The expenses was already something like 100 and revenue was at around 200 without considering library and academy. Also, I did not have civil service until the end of 1AD, which means the capital had like 20 commerce @ 50% science rate giving me only 20@50%@50% = 5 beakers for the academy. A super Specialist would give me 6*1.25 = 7.5 beakers. And since it was merge in Bombay which has the Great library, it gives me (6+6)*1.25 = 15 beakers every turn even when I set research at 0%. On top of that, it has that one additional hammer to use for bombay to build more troops/wonders. Also, the next GP is only 10+ turns away which has a high probability of getting a Great scientist. So, I am not worried about not getting an academy later with the current figures giving more beakers on super specialist.
As for the guarded worker, I never observed that. Perhaps, others may want to give their observation on that. My observation has always been they are pretty much always left unguarded.
Actually, Greek has 3 cities, I raze the first as it was not in a spot I like where it would have been a net expense to my empire even considering mid-term. As for having less improved cities, well, I got the workers to improve my lot instead. My core cities can support 8 or more popoulation by 1AD and I sure need the worker for myself.
I think I was already running like 50% science at that time to break even on cash, although I still have a high net income. The expenses was already something like 100 and revenue was at around 200 without considering library and academy. Also, I did not have civil service until the end of 1AD, which means the capital had like 20 commerce @ 50% science rate giving me only 20@50%@50% = 5 beakers for the academy. A super Specialist would give me 6*1.25 = 7.5 beakers. And since it was merge in Bombay which has the Great library, it gives me (6+6)*1.25 = 15 beakers every turn even when I set research at 0%. On top of that, it has that one additional hammer to use for bombay to build more troops/wonders. Also, the next GP is only 10+ turns away which has a high probability of getting a Great scientist. So, I am not worried about not getting an academy later with the current figures giving more beakers on super specialist.
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
I have seen the AI guard their workers quite regularly, whether we stole one or not. But in this game the initial Greek worker never moved to the edge of the city's radius, so there was nothing to steal. In a few test runs that I ran later it never showed either.
Qitai
.
Anyway, I double check my log and was suprized that Greek actually had five cities. Should have check for the word razed when I did the write up. I don't even remember they had so many cities since I only raze one city which is Sparta. The other two must be cities which are automatically razed due to newly build city. One, I remember was intentional as I was waiting to get the gold from city capture but only got 4gc out of it. The other, I totally forgot that I even took it. Below are what I found from my log.
Turn 71 (1160 BC) Captured Sparta (Alexander)
Turn 71 (1160 BC) Razed Sparta
Turn 85 (750 BC) Razed Corinth
Turn 98 (425 BC) Razed Delphi
Turn 101 (350 BC) Captured Thermopylae (Alexander)
Turn 112 (75 BC) Captured Athens (Alexander)
Turn 71 (1160 BC) Captured Sparta (Alexander)
Turn 71 (1160 BC) Razed Sparta
Turn 85 (750 BC) Razed Corinth
Turn 98 (425 BC) Razed Delphi
Turn 101 (350 BC) Captured Thermopylae (Alexander)
Turn 112 (75 BC) Captured Athens (Alexander)
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