GOTM 04 - First Spoiler (starting continent)

[Thrallia]

quick question...a few people are settling cities ON resources...do you still get access to the resource? or does it just disappear?

and if a resource was going to spawn somewhere when you researched the tech (ie. iron spawning when you research IW), would it still spawn in the same place if there was a city there?

 

[JerichoHill]

Yes to both (you get access, and when you research the tech to unlock the resource, it spawns in place)

 

[culdeus]

As said above. The scarce resource here is not hammers, its food. There are 5 more hills + the copper mine for additional hammers.
Settling on marble gives 2f3h1g immediatley a quarry takes 9 turns and then gives 5h3h.
Commerce is a more serious issue. Since I have silk with 4g and only 1f food becomes even more important.
The only good alternative would be to settle south of the marble, but that consumes a precious grassland.
You can do a calculation of the two possibilities and I believe that marble comes out better.

Thermophyle could have been razed. The consequence would be a very long distance between Bombay and Athens. The current site is not great, but still acceptable. Bombay of course gets priority in using the right tiles. So I think a suboptimal Thermo is better than no Thermo.
To prove the point, have a look at Thermo a few hundred years later -edit: oops removed picture because of spoiler information. But believ me the city became quite productive.

CMIIW, but didn't you say you got the GL also? spanning a city between the wheat and rice (going off memory here a bit so might have the resources messed up in my mind) to the N of bombay on coast maybe made more sense.

All I see that site of thermo becoming is a mediocre commerce factory with very expensive whips.

 

[Ronald]

CMIIW, but didn't you say you got the GL also? spanning a city between the wheat and rice (going off memory here a bit so might have the resources messed up in my mind) to the N of bombay on coast maybe made more sense.

All I see that site of thermo becoming is a mediocre commerce factory with very expensive whips.

GL as in Great Library not Great Lighthouse, so no additional commerce from sea tiles.
You are right Thermo is not a great place, but still a good commercial contributor. I think razing or not razing here is a matter of personal choice. I did not see a great site, so I preferred just to keep it, but razing would have been a valid option too.

 

[DonaldKipper]

interesting choice on the marble - i built one city on the silk and another one north of the deer - a 4th by the fish and silver

i didnt even consider the marble but i see u get a lot of hills there which i never got to use in my game. However, my city north of the deer provided a lot of commerce, especially later when the cottages had turned to towns

 

[Markus5]

Is there a way to see the improvements in a city before you decide to raze it? One of the big mistakes in my game was to capture a city and not raze it. Capturing it gave the enemy a chance to retake it when reenforcements arrived. If razed, my culture boundary would have expanded a bit and probably prevented the enemy from using any of the area. And, I could have pulled back units to defend.

Still, I made the bad move without thinking and looking inside the city first might have given me pause for thought. After taking the city, I can't raze it, can I? Or, give it away?

 

[DonaldKipper]

BTW you founded the city not on the river. In CIV3 there was an advantage to founding on the river (no granary needed). In CIV4 I am not so sure. Is there any benefit to the city apart from the trade benefit of being connected to the trade network via the river?

Cities built on a tile that has access to fresh water - ie on a river or by a lake - get +2 health limit. If u hover cursor over a tile, it tells u if it has fresh water.

Almost irrelevant on lower difficulty levels but can be quite important on higher levels

 

[Debanad]

-I went BW first to chop out a settler quick and then fishing.

-Settled next to the bronze and started chopping out axemen as soon as i saw Alex.

-Went to war with Alex and took a couple of cities, left him with one to extort for peace once i got Alphabet and tech trading. 10 turns later i finished him off, around 800 or so.

-Unfortunately my aggression also murdered my economy so i fell behind pretty far in techs and i'm working now to catch up.

-Isabella is easily winning in my game right now

 

[ScubaRoo]

I'm still the leader in science, to the point that Victoria wont trade techs with me because she fears I'm becoming too advanced. Bummer...well, that will change sooner rather than later.

I'm having real problems with tech trading in this game - don't know whether this relates to Emperor level or just diplo ratings. Despite being 4 techs behind, being only 4th on the leader board and with them being 'pleased', none of the three ladies will deal with me. Their excuse - 'we fear you are becoming too advanced'. WTH is that all about?

It's hard enough developing a tech that even a couple of civs don't already have. Half the time I've had to give them away as tribute or for cash (which at least helps keep the sicence rate up).

Is this just a cop-out because the AI doesn't have a better excuse? Am I only going to be able to deal with 'friendly' civs? Is it just me?

 

[Memphus]

Wow I better write my spoiler, I am usually on one of the first pages...

Missed the Oracle..ouch that is a first,...
it was built ~1600BC

But By 1 AD I am still in good shape
Spoiler comming soon

Edit: Oracle was built in 1600BC not 1600AD

 

[Drool]

Wow I better write my spoiler, I am usually on one of the first pages...

Missed the Oracle..ouch that is a first,...
it was built ~1600AD

But By 1 AD I am still in good shape
Spoiler comming soon

I think you mean 1600BC.

 

[Memphus]

I think you mean 1600BC.

And so I did Thanks

 

[Tech Step]

how did everyone manage to expand when in war. I found it very difficult to keep my ecconomy ticking over as I expanded. I held back on conquering Greece as I was short of money to do it.

 

[karmina]

how did everyone manage to expand when in war. I found it very difficult to keep my ecconomy ticking over as I expanded. I held back on conquering Greece as I was short of money to do it.

Well, I agree that the upkeep costs of a growing empire on emperor are extreme. I myself was shocked to run a deficit at 0% science after the greek war (8 cities total).
However there are ways to counter this - even without cottages at all, and without the financial trait:
- do you really need all those expensive civics all the time?
- keep your units inside your borders (as far as possible)
- chop courthouses in your new cities, maybe even FP or Versailles
- build the Colossus
- contact all civs & build the Great Lighthouse
- Merchants can help, especially with market/bank
- and most importantly, don't care too much about low science rate - in a capital with academy, library and 2-3 monasteries, 2-6 scientists, maybe accompanied with 1-2 Great Scientists, can out-research the AI for most of the game at 0% science!

/edit:
And don't forget diplomacy! Occasionally you can get 3-6gpt for a resource, and sometimes you can even get 50-100 gold for free if you ask - yes, even on emperor. Be careful when selling important techs cheaply though, as you don't want to fall behind.

 

[sed]

Well this is my second GOTM, I did ok in GOTM3 eventually winning with a score of 50k or so but Since I like a challenge I went with contender. I tried two practice games with India on Emperor and they both didn't go very well. I could either get religions and wonders at the cost of not expanding of expand at the cost of not getting wonders and religions. I think striking the balance between the two is the key to playing a good 'Builder'. So I was hoping to strike the balance in this GOTM, play peacefully and get an eventual cultural victory. Anyways after that ramble, on to the write up:

I went the typical Fishing -> Poly -> BW. I got Hinduisim no problem but I had to make sure that sience was switched to 90% as soon as I got fishing and began working the clams. Build order was 2x Warrior the Workboat. I saw no point in building a second workboat because the extra food would just mean unhappines sooner, so I went worker. In the meantime my warriors found Alex close by (a worker steal didn't occur to me but looking back would have probably been a good gamble). After the worker I started a settler. Three turns into starting the settler I noticed Alex had a settler heading for the sweet marble spot and sure enough the following turn Alex built a city S of the Marble. After a fair bit of cursing, I had to decide what next. Clearly my strategy of a peaceful game went out the window. The idea of CoL or CS singlshot scraped. The only option to survive would be WAR! Copper was just out of reach and I pondered whether I should go for IW or beeline for Archery. I reasoned that I cant rely on the fact the Iron would be in the capital radius (although I actually was ), so I wend archery. In the meantime I choped Stonehenge cause I had nothing better to build (funnily enough Stonehenge is probably what saved me from a defeat). Barracks followed and then archers. When I had 5 archers I declared war. My archers were hopeless as I send 3 in and didn't kill one. After more cursing and my GF suggesting I scrap this GOTM because I have no chance, I decided to play one more turn. The flowing turn my borders expanded thanks to SH and Copper was in my borders. I quickly hooked up copper to the capital and mass produced Axemen. The axemen captured the city no problem, but my conquest didnt stop there. Once IW was up swordsmen joined the fray. After capturing one more of their cities, I call for a cease fire. During this time Isabella sent a ship with 2 archers at Delhi and declared on me for no reason at all other than the fact I had a differend religion. My defence was solid and she managed to just pillage my clams and one mine before I subdued her invasion. I got a cease fire from her a few turns later. Meanwhile Victoria declared on Alex. I waited a few turns till Alex moved his units to deal with Victoria's invasion and then I marched in with my swordsmen. The war was lengthy but at around 500AD Greece had one city left. I got some free techs for peace and Victoria destroyed the Greeks 2 turns after. I also captured one of the barbarian cities with Ivory up on the northern coast. Something that surprised me was that Victoria offered me Meditation for free during the war because we had +4 mutual military strugles although we didn't even have the same religion.

So where am I at a couple of turns after 500AD. Technologically: atleast 6 techs behind everyone else. Wonders: Only SH and Colosus. Economy: Almost crashed with one turn running at a deficit with 0% science. World Area: 10% (Victoria 20%). Diplomacy: No one really likes me except for Victoria. So I am alive and kicking but not looking too good for any Victory condition. I noticed Isabella has a few cities East that are only guarded by 2 archers each. I have a feeling she doesn't have any iron, copper or horses. So I am contemplating an intercontinental invasion, atleast I would have payback for that sneak attack she did for no reason. I still only have a cease fire with here because she just doesn't want peace. The other side of the coin is I will have Drama in few turns, I have some decent cities with a fair few cottages up. I could spam more cottages and flip the culture slider and head still try to head for that originally intended cultural Victory... we shall see in the next spolier what path I will take and how it all turned out.

All in all its been an uphill battle nothing went as planned and I am quite behind and might not even win, but it has been one of the most fun games I've played in a while. Thanks GOTM Staff.

SED

 

[Perugia]

Is there a way to see the improvements in a city before you decide to raze it?

This is easy... Just zoo m in real close on the city to see all the Wonders and Buildings right there i.e. wysiwyg. When the city is large with lots of stuff, you may need to rotate the camera and even go into camera flying mode to get views from all sides and/or above to identify everything. Of course a lot of the stuff like Temples gets demolished during the assault.

You need to know what to look by checking the pictures in the civilopedia or just comparing to your own cities. Later in the game when the view is real confusing you can research Communism and use a Spy like in previous versions.

 

[Ribannah]

@Perugia: Settling on a river (or lake) gives 2 health points. In this case, however, there were so many forests that health would never be an issue. I moved an extra tile to the west to avoid a big overlap with the city I planned south-east of Delhi.

Not founding on the river also gives the tiny extra bonus of one extra gold from a river tile.

In hindsight, it may have been better though to settle on top of the marble, for a much quicker start. But I did not know at the time that that would give an additional hammer.

@Tech Step: I'm not at war yet.
Trying to expand to 6 cities, where the sixth may be a barbarian one to give my troops some training first once I have them. Then Greece will have no go. The poor bastards, they don't know it yet.

 

[eMork]

Hi,

it was not my first emperor level game but my first with no reloads. I was too careless and Alex took my second city with 2 archers againt 1 warrior and was about to take my third city the same way 2 turns later. So it was game over for me very quick. Until then I followed this path:
Research: Fishing, BW, ... (no chance to get a religion)
Build: Start Stonehenge, 2 fishing boats, worker, settler, finish stonehenge, settler

After my early defeat I did the same start again with a little more caution on Alex and beat him easily. The other civs were also no big problem later on. Of course I can't send in a score this GotM.

After reading this spoiler I found that the behaviour of the opponents seem to vary a lot. I did some test starts and found this true. Sometimes you can get a religion, sometimes you don't have a chance. Sometimes you can build the Oracle, sometimes you are beaten by ages. There is also a interesting varity in the place where Alex founds his city. The amount of tests I did is no statistical proof, but it seems to me that just placing a unit somewhere affects the decision of the computer if and when to settle in this area. Do you have similar experiences?

Regards, emork.

 

[Pvblivs]

An AI player like you always has to make tough decisions out of his choices.

Take scouting for example. If two places are similarly "interesting" (computed by the AI) there is a choice of 1:1 in choosing either one direction or the other.

Already this affects a LOT what the AI is going to deal with next. It might send its scouts in a completely different direction thus discovering entirely different city founding sites.

The same with technologies. What is researched sometimes is not decisible (how?). The AI for sure has no optimal long-time strategy with openings that go over 5 technologies. And if it has it has to decide wether to beline for Alphabet, for religions or for strong military.

But, to be honest: I have no idea. Maybe it already does a lot of planning like: "I've got to destroy this nasty neighbor, but I have to wait for macemen" as he is culturally strong but technologically weak"...

 

[whb]

After reading this spoiler I found that the behaviour of the opponents seem to vary a lot. I did some test starts and found this true. Sometimes you can get a religion, sometimes you don't have a chance.
Regards, emork.

Given that the seed is preserved in save games, and I imagined the pseudo-random rolls would follow the same sequence, I find this quite curious. So for example when I replayed the GOTM I still did not have a chance to get a religion, and indeed didn't have a chance the first time [would not have got one going direct or via fishing]. Did you do something that would use a different number of rolls at some point - ie pop a hut at a different time or fight a barb at a different time?

In this regard, I've wondered if it might be possible to write an easy full-game-logging mod that wouldn't have too large a filesize when zipped. So long as you record the initial seed and the user's actions, the rest of the game should replay the same as it happened so you wouldn't need to record it [barring platform differences?]. A simple check on results at key points for error-detection would be all that's needed. Then real replays could be posted for us to download and play, and we'd actually get to see hendrickzoon's and DaveMcW's high-scoring games in full rather than just hearing the report.