GOTM 04 - Pre-Game Discussion

[DonaldKipper]

i think the best first move is move the warrior west - he should sea the land square w, sw of him then

if there is something nice there a move s, sw for the settler would keep all the bonus resources, plus what is there and free up a hill - would also leave room for a close 2nd city up north

 

[ionimplant]

i think the best first move is move the warrior west - he should sea the land square w, sw of him then

i don't think the warrior can see anything. right now we're seeing that far because our settler is on a mountain. anyway i'll try Ronald's start once i get a chance to confirm this. if what you said is true, then i'll definitely follow what you said.

 

[Narsilion]

Emperor, ice age... just shows you Ainwood's frustrations, working in the public sector here in Wellington...

I might give this a shot just for a (probably very brief) learning experience.

Played Civ1 and 2, hardly touched Civ3. Bought Civ4, found this site and have enjoyed playing a few times. Comfortable on Prince, challenged on Monarch, never tried Emp (or a Gotm for that matter). Still, worth a crack I reckon.

 

[fbouthil]

the problem is there would be no way to know whether there is one or more spiritual civs...

That is not entirely true. You can go to the "Top 5 cities/Wonders" on the first turn and see the name of the capitals of the other civs. It won't tell you what the leader of those civs are, but you will know what civs you are facing (most of the at least). That should give you a better is it is worth going for an early religion or not.

My question for the board... when I discovered Hinduism, I did not get a missionary. I thought you always got one when you first discover a religion... am I missing something?

In my experience, you get a missionary only if you have settle a second city first, but I could be mistaken on the exact reason.

Hum. I have started a few emperor games since I finished the lat GOTM, but I only got a satisfying start in one of them. This is going to tax me a lot, especially since I am only good as a warmonger. Oh well, we only get better when we try something new, right?

 

[Caesar of Rome]

Originally posted by fbouthil
In my experience, you get a missionary only if you have settle a second city first, but I could be mistaken on the exact reason.

Isn't the religion founded in your newest city? This is the reason for persuing Mono as it is likely to be founded other than in your capital. The extra culture can be useful. As far as the neighbours are concerned, until their missionary reaches your capital, you aren't in a position to convert to their religion.

 

[culdeus]

I'm gonna try to world build a map with a start like this unless someone has already. Got one sg to knock out first. I suxor at WB though so don't expect perfection.

 

[The-Hawk]

I think im going to skip out on an early religion and adopt one later depending on the situation. Theres clams, deer, and cows so i think going for worker techs first is probably the best way to go.

Actually, I'm thinking I might skip hunting and animal husbandry completely (trade for them later). My issue is that we have a pop max of 4 (limited by happiness). Putting a camp on the deer just means hitting it earlier, especially if you've already put a boat on the clams. I'm pretty sure my first tech is fishing... I think the tech path will be too slow on 1 gpt only. The health bonus from the deer doesn't matter much, happiness will limit us first. The main value I see for going hunting and AH first is to start cranking out settlers... but I think the penalty on slow techs makes this risky. On the other hand, if as other suggested we are on a peninsula, then getting a few settlers out quickly might be very important. This start position really does create some interesting decisions.

And... if I don't research hunting, I'm not seeing much value in building an early worker. He mines the hill, then is idle. I suspect I will have a few warriors, a boat, and a maybe settler out before I build my first worker. Really depends on whether I decide to research BW before going for writing and alphabet. If I slip BW in early, it would be good to have a worker to chop those few forests.

So, while I may not "go for" an early religion, I may use that path to writing. If I get a religion, that is great, if not, oh well. The real question for me is timing of BW... not so much for chops (too few trees), but I am anxious to figure out where the copper is.

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm gonna try to world build a map with a start like this unless someone has already. Got one sg to knock out first. I suxor at WB though so don't expect perfection.

Sorry for the double post...

Ronald posted one earlier in this thread.

 

[mboza]

For whatever reason, the AIs always seem to go for buddism before hinduism, so researching hinduism first and leave buddism to the AIs should be fairly safe. Trying to get both might be a huge risk. Only the later religions get missionaries, to help them overturn the established order? If you get a religion you can spread it around to your neighbours, and you can always convert to something else later. So I will go for one, no more, no less.

I think I will go for hinduism, then fishing+BW. BW will be more useful for slavery than forest chopping, as we have plenty of food to replace the lost slaves. And I want to know if there is copper about. If I cannot find any then archery or IW will be needed as well. Work the two clams, and can mine the hill, so hunting is only needed for the 4th pop. Might even be better to work the forests or the lake before the deer, and I might not go the hunting route to AH. Getting Agri would give the worker something else to do, but I will not be working the farms for ages. If there is stone nearby then I will sidetrack to masonry, otherwise straight for alphabet (apart from sailing?) Problem is that I will probably have to trade alpha to catch up on all the other techs, rather than swapping away lesser techs.

We are safe on three sides, so barbs should not be a problem. Depends how close them neighbours are to the west. Also I have noted that wide continents seem quite small, with 2/3 civs rather than 7. So sailing might be useful for more than just joining up the trade network easily.

 

[AU_Armageddon]

Going for a religion with this start on emp seems crazy to me. Excluding that it is a risk as to whether you will even get it in time with no gold bonus present, and excluding debate as to its impact on diplomacy, it is crippling your game given this starting setup. If you REALLY want hinduism that badly and are such a gambler IMO you are prolly better off to run west with your settler and hope for better commerce spot (or use it to scout for huts lol and hope you get the tech).

Only question in my mind is whether to go Fishing - Bronze or Bronze - Fishing.

Either:
Scenario A
*Fishing. Build 2 Warriors (start bronze); 2 Workboats (able to raise your tech back to 90% after 1st is out); City size prolly make 3 just in time for you to make worker to coincide with bronze. A little stonehenge building in between maybe for timing. If have copper mine the copper, else mine the hill. Chop stonehenge, or maybe 2nd worker then henge. Hunting is next tech. That's your 4 squares for happiness which is all you you get on emporer (2 fishing, 1 deer, 1 copper mine or hill mine). Beyond that will depend on your surrounding terrain i.e. several more workers if lush forests; animal husbandry if animals nearby for town 2; maybe masonry instead if stone - especially if stone on a plains hill nearby for super fast pyramid town; etc.

Scenario B
*Bronze Working. Build Warrior; Build 2 Workers; (start fishing) chopping second worker and prolly get first workbout out of left overs. 2nd workboat while also mine either copper or the hill if no copper. Stonehenge. Hunting for your 4th square. Beyond that same as above (in both cases capital is then worker/settler spam city; can employ slavery for this and that as well).

I'm no Xpert and not sure which order will be quicker, but prolly much of a muchness.

RE: n00b class. I think giving a 2nd settler to n00bs is like giving a rocket launcher to rookie cops for their first day out. They will all drop it straight down in a few turns for a nice 60% tech rate right off the bat.

Given how utterly doomed to lose like at least 50% of this months GotM players are - regardless of their start, I think they should be given a more substanial bonus.

i.e. Fishing & Hunting for free to start as well as a worker and maybe even a scout.
or
A free settler AND 200 gold to start (they will lose 4 a turn off the bat anyway)
or
3 Archers, hunting, and a worker.

Even if a n00b has a decent start, emporer unlike monarchy is not just slightly more difficult at the start including health, happiness, and maintainence, but the main difference is the AI doesn't coast along in a linear fashion in the later half of the game like Monarch but continues to ramp it up exponentially more like a human. Whatever uber start a n00b has, they are not gonna expand and improve terrain and deal with maintainence fast enough to keep up with the second half of the game.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And with fast workers, those cottages are built rather quickly.

Ummm, I was under the impression that Indian fast workers could move 3 rather than 2 squares per turn, but still build things at the same speed as normal workers. Am I mistaken?

(btw if the fast workers have nothing else to do at any point in the early game, they can make useful scouts - you can move them 2 squares and then they can still retreat a square if they see a barb)

 

[mushroomshirt]

Actually, I'm thinking I might skip hunting and animal husbandry completely (trade for them later). My issue is that we have a pop max of 4 (limited by happiness). Putting a camp on the deer just means hitting it earlier, especially if you've already put a boat on the clams. I'm pretty sure my first tech is fishing... I think the tech path will be too slow on 1 gpt only. The health bonus from the deer doesn't matter much, happiness will limit us first. The main value I see for going hunting and AH first is to start cranking out settlers... but I think the penalty on slow techs makes this risky. On the other hand, if as other suggested we are on a peninsula, then getting a few settlers out quickly might be very important. This start position really does create some interesting decisions.

And... if I don't research hunting, I'm not seeing much value in building an early worker. He mines the hill, then is idle. I suspect I will have a few warriors, a boat, and a maybe settler out before I build my first worker. Really depends on whether I decide to research BW before going for writing and alphabet. If I slip BW in early, it would be good to have a worker to chop those few forests.

So, while I may not "go for" an early religion, I may use that path to writing. If I get a religion, that is great, if not, oh well. The real question for me is timing of BW... not so much for chops (too few trees), but I am anxious to figure out where the copper is.

I'm certainly no expert, but I will most likely go for hunting if for no other reason than to get archery. I know that archery is a dead-end, but on Emperor those barb archers come out early!

Unless bronze-working reveals some early copper even a protected start (some on this board are speculating that the start is safe on three sides) I think archers or axemen will be needed early. Even if copper is revealed, unless you want to plop your second city right on top of it then wheel will have to be researched right away, too (unless there is a river somewhere- we can only hope).

Is this too conservative? I don't know but in the last couple of GOTMs a lot of posts on the first spoiler threads talked about early barb death. Knock on wood this has not happened to me yet, but this is my first time on emperor, so maybe I will be playing conservative in the early game...

 

[culdeus]

Sorry for the double post...

Ronald posted one earlier in this thread.

I may try to create one as well. His has some issues and doesn't situate the start near the south pole among other oddities.

 

[mike p]

Best advice for the barbs - keep extra warriors outside of the cultural boundaries pushing back fog of war, preferably fortified atop a hill with a forest. Obvious, I know, but if you have consistent barbarian problems you probably aren't taking these simple preventative steps. I expect that barbarians should be less of a factor than last month, since we start with our backs to the ocean on two sides instead of having 5+ land tiles in each direction from the capitol.

Any thoughts on Agriculture to Animal Husbandry, after fishing and BW, to get the cows going, and skip hunting initially? I might go that route if there's copper within reach and forget about building archers for a while. That's a more expensive path, and means no scouts either, but with the low happiness limit we'll need more hammers than food, which makes the pasture more appealing than the camp.

 

[greentea]

@culdeus:

You can't really recreate more than the initial city location anyway. Further development would depend too much on resources and AIs, I don't think we can test for more than capital growth and improvement. Which is crucial, because of the many tech choices we have. I would personally by all means go for fishing first and build a workboat, but one may compare with the hunting->AH and worker path. And BW must also fit somewhere. Not to mention religions. Various ways to start. That's what we need the test for. Later game is unpredictable, decisions would be on the spot.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Best advice for the barbs - keep extra warriors outside of the cultural boundaries pushing back fog of war, preferably fortified atop a hill with a forest. Obvious, I know, but if you have consistent barbarian problems you probably aren't taking these simple preventative steps. I expect that barbarians should be less of a factor than last month, since we start with our backs to the ocean on two sides instead of having 5+ land tiles in each direction from the capitol.

I do this but frequently lose these "sentry" warriors to barb archers when they pop up. In a few practice games on Emperor this has been even more of a problem for me than on the last to GOTMs where I played very defensively for the early game (not that I did that great or even won GOTM2)

How do you counter this? Maybe one city with a barracks constantly pumping warriors? This would make sense and then you could concentrate on the techs you actually need. Of course if there is nearby copper I guess wheel could be researched to connect and then the point is moot.

Any thoughts on Agriculture to Animal Husbandry, after fishing and BW, to get the cows going, and skip hunting initially? I might go that route if there's copper within reach and forget about building archers for a while. That's a more expensive path, and means no scouts either, but with the low happiness limit we'll need more hammers than food, which makes the pasture more appealing than the camp.

This makes a lot of sense to me (for what it's worth). Happiness limit means you can only work 4 squares and that means 2 clams, 1 mined hill and either cow or deer. In my practice games where I have built a camp on the deer I've had to whip a lot so the loss of a little more food shouldn't matter a bit.

 

[Tech Step]

Bsince we start with our backs to the ocean on two sides instead of having 5+ land tiles in each direction from the capitol.

If you look at the picture closely you will see that there is ocean on 3 sides (North, East and South)

 

[Denniz]

One possibilty I have found from a few test games is that we could be on an island by ourselves. Although, some of the other civs were be reachable via galley. I haven't decide if the relative isolation was good or bad.

 

[Memphus]

One possibilty I have found from a few test games is that we could be on an island by ourselves. Although, some of the other civs were be reachable via galley. I haven't decide if the relative isolation was good or bad.

Good parts:

You have gauranteed expansion, to fill your island, so you could take a little (not to long if they can get to your island by galley) more time in expanding thus not hurting reaserach.

If the island is small enough you can reveal enough of it with well positioned warriors on hill, eliminating the barbarian threat.

Any extra goodies on this island are yours (stone, marble, iron, and health bonus)

Concieveably if the island has the right stuff (resources, size) you could fill it up and never go to war, a builders dream

Bad Parts:

If you want to play a domination/conquest game (I am betting very few people will especially since the speed is normal) this slows you down.

Depending how many you can contact via galley/at all hurts your trading, as this is very important on emporer to catch up.


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Since my game is fast domination...this month is gonna be tough. Especially if on an island

Hmmm maybe I'll have to play a different game

On another note, thanks to Ronald for the start mock up, I definetly have my first 2000 years mapped out to 3 different approaches based on what my explorer uncovers

 

[Tech Step]

I am going to go for masonary first then sailing. I want to find stone and/or marble asap as wonder creation (especially stonehenge + parthenon) will be aided significantly