GOTM 08 Pre-Game Discussion

[drkodos]

This is a very powerful starting position.

No doubt.


And I will need all the help I can get to make it through this one.


I plan on developing seafaring and commerce techs as a priority after trying to nab the CS slingshot. After beeling for Astronomy, hope to pick up Machinery for defense and then head toward Space Ship techs. I also want to get some Galleys out to grab some others islands early, regardless of how large the original starting landmass, make contact with as many civs as possible to maximixe alphabet.


Overall goals:

~ Grab some early land and some resouces (and future important ones)
~ Concentrate on economy & reseach
~ Build semi-large military for minimal warmongering but mostly defense.
~ Play with some boats.
~ Build a Spach Ship for victory.


Back-up plan: be around at the end.

 

[Nares]

So the fastest I've gotten the Oracle / CS slingshot using the original practice saved game is 1560 BC - anybody do better than that?

Sounds like an extremely direct route to the slingshot. I personally found the biggest impedement was researching CoL.

In terms of AI competition, I ran a few tests of my own against various groups of leaders. The list I posted earlier was designed to test against both picking up Hinduism and completing the CS slingshot. The latter tests were to see when the AI would complete The Oracle.

The typical AI completion date was somewhere around 750BC. The only noticably different completion date was in 1160BC, by an Industrious civ holed up on a small isolated island. It's really only the combination of the latter that would provide any real problems in completing the slingshot. I doubt the map script could allow for a civ to be seeded on a island small enough to allow only one city while at the same time not having coastal access to another potential site.

Typically, the AI sought to expand to at least three cities before beginning work on The Oracle, though by the 1200-600BC period, the AI seems disposed to expand to at least four cities.

1560BC is extremely early. I'm curious as to what you may have skipped tech wise. Presumably, you went for Meditation instead of Polytheism, and most likely researched Fishing first before starting on the religion techs.

 

[godotnut]

Why are you fine civfanatics so wild about the Civil Service slingshot? I don't think it's that big of a deal at all, just another strategy. The Oracle provides a very short-term gain compared to the other early wonders. And there are many situations where Civil Service is definitely not your best bet, even if you do go for the Oracle.

 

[malekithe]

1560BC is extremely early. I'm curious as to what you may have skipped tech wise. Presumably, you went for Meditation instead of Polytheism, and most likely researched Fishing first before starting on the religion techs.

Fastest I've been able to pull it off on the same map was 1600BC. It does take some pretty extreme sacrifices, though. The fastest way I could find to it was AH > Fishing > Writing > Bronze > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > CoL > CS (from oracle). If you leave out fishing, it doesn't actually speed things up any. Leaving out Bronze working might speed things up (a turn or two) but, in general, the forest chops are useful for completing a library and the oracle. It should also be noted that I produced a Great Scientist a couple turns before hitting the slingshot (for an academy). Leveraging Bureaucracy and the academy, Macemen were acquired right around 600BC (along with alphabet and every ancient tech).

Taking a less extreme route, picking up the wheel, pottery, and polytheism instead of meditation, adds an additional 8 to 10 turns but leaves you in a much better situation. The slightly slower route also leaves room to work on a settler and an extra worker as well. On this difficulty setting, I really don't recommend the fastest slingshot possible.

 

[pigswill]

A unique feature of the Oracle is that its a one-off benefit which means that unlike stonehenge or pyramids there's no benefit in capturing it. In this game it might be worth doing an oracle slingshot for metal casting to get a head start on colossus. OTOH a combination of bureaucracy,academy and commerce capital gives you a significant early game boost.

 

[BLubmuz]

I tried a practice game with the same settings and I reproduced the starting location, 'cause i never played a game with Germans, nor in an Archipelago.

I got 2 "spiritual" civs, Spanish and Egyptians, but i could easily build SH and Oracle with CS slingshot.

I was in the only island with 2 civs, and Persians (my neighbour) had stone, so few turns after my slingshot they has Pyramids.

I didn't test it, but probably the world was circumnavigable with galleys.

Probably i was lazy, but i won't see the way for an enough fast domination, so i went for space race as probably most of us will do in GotM 8.

In GotM 8 settle 1W, fishing, AH, the wheel, and straight to COL ... let's see

Panzer is one of the useless UU in Civ4, and Bismark traits are definitely poor as germans are (let me tell this after Der Spiegel article about Italians )

 

[regoarrarr]

Fastest I've been able to pull it off on the same map was 1600BC. It does take some pretty extreme sacrifices, though. The fastest way I could find to it was AH > Fishing > Writing > Bronze > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > CoL > CS (from oracle). If you leave out fishing, it doesn't actually speed things up any. Leaving out Bronze working might speed things up (a turn or two) but, in general, the forest chops are useful for completing a library and the oracle. It should also be noted that I produced a Great Scientist a couple turns before hitting the slingshot (for an academy). Leveraging Bureaucracy and the academy, Macemen were acquired right around 600BC (along with alphabet and every ancient tech).

Taking a less extreme route, picking up the wheel, pottery, and polytheism instead of meditation, adds an additional 8 to 10 turns but leaves you in a much better situation. The slightly slower route also leaves room to work on a settler and an extra worker as well. On this difficulty setting, I really don't recommend the fastest slingshot possible.

1600 - nice! In looking at your tech path, I think that must have been due to Writing before Bronze. I should have been more specific about my 1560 game. I teched Fishing / Animal Husbandry / Bronze / Writing / Myst / Meditation / Priesthood / CoL.

I built a settler, 2 work boats, a worker and 2 warriors in addition to the Oracle.

I think Meditation is superior to Polytheism, because it gets you Bureaurcracy 2 turns earlier, which is HUGE! Plus, at least in the game I played, I'm at such a tech lead (due to the amazing gold hill), you're easily able to pick up Polytheism after you get Alphabet.

I played for awhile after the Oracle and I went Sailing (for G. Lighthouse), Alphabet, Masonry (if I couldn't get it by trade), then on to Machinery for maces. Maces vs. Archers =

 

[BLubmuz]

Fastest I've been able to pull it off on the same map was 1600BC. It does take some pretty extreme sacrifices, though. The fastest way I could find to it was AH > Fishing > Writing > Bronze > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > CoL > CS (from oracle). If you leave out fishing, it doesn't actually speed things up any.

I can't see why research AH before Fishing. Fishing IMO is an absolute priority. Same i can't see why research BW ... you can easily trade it after Alpha and if you don't know other civs it's not a priority.
I prefer Myst instead of Medi 'cause Medi is easiest to have by trade, since there are no Wonders tied, and -again- I can't see why research both.

Last but not least, Confucianism spreads a lot faster than the 3 early religions, so it's better avoid them.

A question for the staff:
When could we see the results of GotM6 ?
Ok, you're busy and your work is danm good ... but

 

[DaviddesJ]

Same i can't see why research BW ... you can easily trade it after Alpha and if you don't know other civs it's not a priority.

Bronze Working is important for chopping and slavery.

 

[Stormreaver]

I can't see why research AH before Fishing. Fishing IMO is an absolute priority. Same i can't see why research BW ... you can easily trade it after Alpha and if you don't know other civs it's not a priority.
I prefer Myst instead of Medi 'cause Medi is easiest to have by trade, since there are no Wonders tied, and -again- I can't see why research both.

Last but not least, Confucianism spreads a lot faster than the 3 early religions, so it's better avoid them.

The reason to get AH before fishing would be to get the Pigs hooked up ASAP for faster growth. Also, AH gives you information about horses, although I hardly think these are present close to the capital nor important in this GOTM.

Bronze Working would be a third tech for me, to reveal copper if it's there and allow for chopping (mainly the Library, which I want built really quick).

You can't skip Mysticism, it's a prerequisite for Medi/Poly. In case it's between these two you choose, I'd go for Poly first because of the proximity to Monotheism and Organized Religion. The Monasteries that are available with Medi isn't in my plans for the earlygame anyway.

Is it really determined that Confucianism really spreads faster? Though you do get the extra Missionary for free which might give it a kickstart...

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Why are you fine civfanatics so wild about the Civil Service slingshot? I don't think it's that big of a deal at all, just another strategy. The Oracle provides a very short-term gain compared to the other early wonders. And there are many situations where Civil Service is definitely not your best bet, even if you do go for the Oracle.

With a very powerful looking starting position with a gold hill and good food, the capital is going to have very high commerce and production.

Switching to Bureaucracy early to get all research from the capital and agressively whipping other cities for military/buildings will be a very strong start for any victory condition.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Is it really determined that Confucianism really spreads faster? Though you do get the extra Missionary for free which might give it a kickstart...

I think the correct way to look at it is early religions can't spread very quickly. Until writing and sailing (open boarders + coastal trade) religions are trapped within a single civ and monasteries aren't a priority for players or the AI until much later to explicitly spread religion. In SP, the player often beelines through CoL for CS and has open boarders with neighbouring civs early. Plus, the missionary means two cities and twice the chance to spread through trade after open boarders to civs that don't prioritize religious techs.

 

[regoarrarr]

I can't see why research AH before Fishing. Fishing IMO is an absolute priority. Same i can't see why research BW ...

I'd have to do some research to see if it's faster to do fishing/workboat vs. animal husb/worker as starting technologies. I would tend to guess fishing/workboat, since otherwise, you're going to run out of things for your worker to do.

Also, isn't the gold mine on a forest? In which case, you'll need BW before you could use that, which would make it very high priority

 

[Nares]

Is it really determined that Confucianism really spreads faster? Though you do get the extra Missionary for free which might give it a kickstart...

Correct, the free Missionary is what makes it "faster" to spread. The other factor involved in the prevalence of a particular religion to spread only arises in multi-religion spread situations. There's a list of religions (I believe in the Python code) that provides the order in which religions are checked for spread. Judiasm, heading the list, is the most likely to spread, because if it is successful, then the other religions will not spread.

I think Meditation is superior to Polytheism, because it gets you Bureaurcracy 2 turns earlier, which is HUGE!

I like Polytheism because, given the initial access to Spice (1F/2P/1C) and a Worker first build (Bismarck starts with Mining, and you want to get the Gold Mine up ASAP), there's a very strong chance of getting Hinduism. With an otherwise slow start in terms of expansion, the added culture of Hinduism (no state religion) provides some rapid border expansion, pushing back the fog quickly enough that you are relatively safer from Barbarians.

I'd have to do some research to see if it's faster to do fishing/workboat vs. animal husb/worker as starting technologies. I would tend to guess fishing/workboat, since otherwise, you're going to run out of things for your worker to do.

At this point in the game, wasted production turns are more important than wasted Worker turns.

Also, isn't the gold mine on a forest? In which case, you'll need BW before you could use that, which would make it very high priority

No, it's not.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't underestimate BW, but i'm still convinced it's not a priority this GotM8, because:
1) with a non religious leader i avoid slavery (to be honest I avoid it almost always) and point to caste system
2) the gold is NOT in a grassland/forest hill, but a GRASSLAND hill, if not I definitely need an oculist don't forget some trees are from the forest tiles surrounding this one
3) ok for chop, but usually I avoid to build GLibr where SH and/or Oracle are built, as for every other GW, to be sure to get GS only from that city (often I avoid NE too in that city, for the same reason)

so, again i can't see why research BW in a CoL/CS slingshot, see Oracle is very cheap and the difficulty is to get CoL before it completes.

Not bad the BW/MC slingshot, i've often used it, but is ways less powerful than the CoL/CS
In other games i've tried the CoL/Philo slingshot, researching Medit instead of Poly, it's not bad if you got stone hooked and revolt to pacifism.

In my test game i've seen Confucianism spread at lightspeed in my cities and in my 2 neighbours ones, as I never seen others religions do

 

[DaviddesJ]

Slavery is very powerful. Especially if you get Org Religion and take advantage of the hammer calculation bug.

 

[BLubmuz]

Slavery is very powerful. Especially if you get Org Religion and take advantage of the hammer calculation bug.

My opinion is (could be wrong, i'm not a top ten player): you loose 1 turn to revolt to slavery, and with a pop-rush you vanish your efforts to make the city grow, delaying the appearing of specialists, plus the unhappiness that could be managed (not much in early game).
Org Religion = 1 turn for the choosen religion + 1 turn for OR

so you got 3 turns of anarchy

with your religion spreaded in 2 cities (if you're in early game this could easily be) ... no thanks

 

[DaviddesJ]

You only need 1 turn of anarchy to revolt to Slavery and Org Religion.

You only use slavery when you are at your population cap, it's not instead of having the city grow.

The benefit is (with the bug) you get 60 hammers for ~15 food, which is a pretty huge amount. Admittedly, the main problem in the early game is there aren't enough buildings to build to really make use of this.

Even 30 hammers for ~15 food (i.e., without Org Religion and without the bug) is a pretty large payoff. And you can do this every 10 turns, not just when you have a building to finish.

I'm not arguing for or against, just pointing out the possible advantages.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd have to do some research to see if it's faster to do fishing/workboat vs. animal husb/worker as starting technologies. I would tend to guess fishing/workboat, since otherwise, you're going to run out of things for your worker to do.

I'll probably research the wheel very early, both to get the happiness from the gold and as a prerequisite for pottery/cottages. Once you have the wheel it's very hard to run out of things for a worker to do

More importantly though IMO - you don't halt city growth while you're building the workboat, and once you have the fish hooked up, the high food fish square will speed up building the worker.

 

[BSmith1068]

Looking at the starting image, it looks like there is coast along the top portion of the island...

- NW of Gold
- N of Gold
- NE of Gold
- 2N of Dyes

All look like coast to me. Something to consider when thinking about city placement, although I'll probably still go 1W.