GOTM 08 Pre-Game Discussion

[pholkhero]

I think pholkhero got it wrong, theaters get the +happiness from Dye, right?

Edit: Spelling...

yes, that is right...er, rather...i was wrong...err...well, you get the picture! The point was 1/2 price forges = cheap-azz extra happies

 

[PeteJ]

Beelining techs for oracle/col/CS slingshot presupposes a fairly peaceful start. Could be largely academic if it's a big island with an aggressive ai at either end.

But with the slingshot, you will be well on your way to Macemen to take care of your neighbors. Just hope you don't get boxed in.

 

[culdeus]

GOTM8 Motto

Three wonders

Collssus
Great Lightouse
Oracle

Pick Two

 

[culdeus]

Why not run those scientists while working toward the slingshot? Then you get a longer benefit from the academy and you have a 100% chance of getting a Great Scientist. In addition, by running the scientists, you'll probably get to Civil Service faster. There aren't any high commerce tiles (no rivers) aside from the gold mine. There's plenty of food. I see no reason not to run a couple scientists early.

I don't think you are following me. I ran the scientists till I pop a GS and then turn them off to get a GP via the 2GPP from the oracle.

After playing your start awhile I think you need to work in the wheel to hookup Gold for 6 happy at the start. The lost 4 turns can be made up by working more than three tiles whilst running the CS slingshot.

I got a Oracle(CS)+Great Lighthouse+sub 1000BC Academy the last time out and I'm just rolling the AI. This sets up very well for a peaceful win after taking out one or two rivals as Confused speads faster with the GL.

 

[tadster]

I've never played a GOTM, but I'm excited to start. Is the GOTM page down?

 

[cas]

Well, I practiced with GOTM-7 since I haven't played for 5 months. Painful...I hate Pangea maps. Looking forward to playing GOTM-8 archi map with no restarts.

Played around with a few options to 2500BC or so. Going AH->BW->Fishing. Worker->warrior->settler/workboat/warrior mix

With a little micro-manage I can get size 3 by 3000, size 4 by 2720 and finish the boat in 2720 also with one chop. that leaves me 2 pop to whip rush the settler out by 2600 or so and he will have a warrior escort.

beyond that, I can't say...too many variables. I'll lean toward whatever techs/wonders benefit from the early resources nearby. If no copper/marble/stone close then I'll probably go for sailing and explore a bit faster.

I hope we are alone on the island, since I'm more of a peaceful builder type.

cas

 

[Seanirl]

I have also decided to play my first GOTM

I just finished my 2nd game of Civ IV today (yeah well... I kind of lost interest when I had my old comp because it went so slow... then I was kind of slow taking it up again when I got my new one, but it runs great now ), it was my first victory. Japanese on Standard I think. About 6 other civs. I won by Domination (one of those games when you're the most powerful by far and the phrase "just a formality" comes to mind, you know the ones) and got a leadership ranking of Ivan The Terrible. I was fairly happy with that

But that was on Noble... this is Monarch... a whole 2 levels above... I expect to lose. Lose badly.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I want to add my thanks to Stormreaver for providing practice games. Hope he will do so again next month.

Does anyone have good information on when the AI on Monarch is likely to complete the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus?

 

[BLubmuz]

anyone have good information on when the AI on Monarch is likely to complete the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus?

The Colossus shouldn't be a problem, GLight, yes ... I was able to complete it in few games, but I won't remember when, perhaps a safe date could be around 900 BC.

Back again on my CoL straight path (fishing, AH, Wheel, Myst, Poly, Priest, Writing, CoL), i repaly my test game, and was beaten on Oracle just to have researched sailing, so I have to delay the Oracle, that was "built in a faraway land" in 975 BC.
This makes me convinced of my theory, and let another chance: BW and Oracle for MC slingshot, the one I used in GotM7, but it seems less powerful to me.

 

[godotnut]

GOTM8 Motto

Three wonders

Collssus
Great Lightouse
Oracle

Pick Two

Wise words.

 

[starbolt]

After playing your start awhile I think you need to work in the wheel to hookup Gold for 6 happy at the start. The lost 4 turns can be made up by working more than three tiles whilst running the CS slingshot.

I agree. While my best CS rush so far was 1480 BC on this map, the extra happy [from hooking up gold] is huge.

My route was:

Fishing - Start worker, work spice. Cut over to Fish Boat.

Wheel - Keep working spice and complete worker when FB complete. Switch to Fish when hooked up. Mine and hook up.

Animal Husbandry - This was wasted time, I think. Hooking up pigs allows you to run the forested hill for library shields OR the coastal squares for commerce without slowing growth but I think the turn cost is way too high.

Writing - I want the scientsts and +25% research ASAP, because CoL *is* the bottleneck.

Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> CoL

---

While Pottery won't speed up research (the coastal squares offer far greater short-term benefit), I think its substitution for AH and then cottaging the pigs would be a more robust start. It would give your worker something VERY useful to do while you wait for the slingshot.

One thing I haven't tested is whether the gold (but I think would work) would be to skip wheel and AH and take sailing to hook up the gold (scout could verify if you share the coast). Getting an early galley/lighthouse PLUS the coastal gold hookup might be fruitful; especially if there are goody huts to be had (as indicated by AlanH).

 

[cas]

Animal Husbandry - This was wasted time, I think. Hooking up pigs allows you to run the forested hill for library shields OR the coastal squares for commerce without slowing growth but I think the turn cost is way too high.

No Bronzeworking in your tech research path ? The AH + BW is very useful for slavery, chops, and getting out a faster settler (IMHO).

Not that I'm an expert...was just very surprised to see no BW on your tech path. The AH/pigs become very useful in combination with it.

cas

 

[DaviddesJ]

One thing I haven't tested is whether the gold (but I think would work) would be to skip wheel and AH and take sailing to hook up the gold (scout could verify if you share the coast).

I think that doesn't work. You can only connect a resource to a city by road or by river, not by coast.

 

[starbolt]

No Bronzeworking in your tech research path ? The AH + BW is very useful for slavery, chops, and getting out a faster settler (IMHO).

Not that I'm an expert...was just very surprised to see no BW on your tech path. The AH/pigs become very useful in combination with it.

cas

Sure, but it's slow. I think you pick up BW (probably en route to IW -> Compass) after the slingshot. While pigs are outstanding, I think AH is wasted here. An archipelago map doesn't support mounted rushing (galleys largely offer the same effect). With CS, research of early techs has incidental cost (particularly since other civs will discover them for you and thus reduce the calculated research cost).

You're talking about a dozen turns apiece. Researching CoL is the bottleneck (remember you're Industrious, so Oracle is trivial to build). Adding 24 turns of research offers no appreciable advantage to the goal of getting the earliest slingshot. You could probably slingshot Priesthood->Writing in the same time it takes to research it. I find I have to slow down Oracle production to get enough commerce to get CoL before I finish Oracle.

Along the same lines, I don't want to whip population because I want the commerce and losing 10 turns at reduced commerce is not justifiable. Try the sample game included in this thread and you'll find that you simply run out of things to build or you're stunting yourself from your max growth.

---

I'm not convinced that an early CS slingshot is optimal for this map (which is why I think sprinkling pottery in there probably works better). I also think Colossus/GL are far stronger.

 

[starbolt]

I think that doesn't work. You can only connect a resource to a city by road or by river, not by coast.

Well, I know that's not completely true but I couldn't give you the definitive rule on it.

I intend to research with the sample game when I get home but my daily experience in replaying the last SGOTM proved that you can connect non-roaded cities with Sailing; even land-locked ones by way of a coastal resource that's roaded to the city.

I think the rules are:

The city must be on the coast or roaded to a coastal resource (that is developed). It's possible that naked roading to the coast is sufficient but I doubt it since that doesn't work in connecting to rivers.

The civ must have sailing to use coastal squares as a trade route. The intervening coast must be explored and not possess closed cultural borders (a barbarian state or a non-open-border civ will embargo the route). In SGOTM001, I had open borders with Russia and could trade with Sailing with India/Persia but lost the route when I declared war.

You can use ocean squares in the same manner (more difficult to embargo with culture).

---

It *may* be required that you road the developed resource square (regardless of any surrounding roads). I've accidentally connected to a developed iron across a lake before (pretty sure no road there) and I've definitely connected to resources by river with no roads (SGOTM001 Thebes cattle and SGOTM001 Memphis-cattle connects you to Thebes). I've not extensively tested coastal connections, but I wouldn't be surprised if they all work the same way once Sailing opens that trade conduit (SGOTM001 - you can connect Thebes to the isthmus city on the desert square if you develop the cattle [I think] or road to the rice and farm that. You also have to not be cut off culturally).

It *may* be required that the resource connect to a city, but again it might not because that's not true of fresh water routes. I played an Emperor challenge game and many of the top players (not me) were successfully connecting things up without roads or rivers and getting off to far faster starts than I.

---

I'll try to provide saves to demonstrate success and non-success if I can work out the details before they give us the 4000BC save.

 

[godotnut]

Try the sample game included in this thread and you'll find that you simply run out of things to build or you're stunting yourself from your max growth.

Not if you're using your capital to spawn settlers and workers. Then those pigs will be very useful indeed.

I think not working the pigs early would be a mistake. Your first settler will arrive WAY faster with Pigs, as will the rest. And if there is no copper around, you may indeed want to know where the horses are for early defense.

My two cents.

 

[cas]

Along the same lines, I don't want to whip population because I want the commerce and losing 10 turns at reduced commerce is not justifiable. Try the sample game included in this thread and you'll find that you simply run out of things to build or you're stunting yourself from your max growth.

You don't lose 10 turns at reduced commerce (assuming you mean working the gold mine) with both fish and pigs pumping out food...maybe 3-4 on the first whip in my test from 4pop to 2 pop and then after that you don't whip until size 4 (1 pop whip) or 5 (2 pop whip) so you are always working the pig/fish/gold...the amount of commerce lost is fairly small IMO.

I've run the sample game and the worker runs out of things to do for city#1 right as I'm popping a settler around 2500-2600BC...exact date depends on some variables. I figure I can keep him busy improving land or chopping around city#2. At that point, wheel is pretty fast if I need roads.

If you are sacrificing everything for CS slingshot, then I guess skipping AH/BW might be beneficial.

cas

 

[BLubmuz]

One thing I haven't tested is whether the gold (but I think would work) would be to skip wheel and AH and take sailing to hook up the gold (scout could verify if you share the coast). Getting an early galley/lighthouse PLUS the coastal gold hookup might be fruitful; especially if there are goody huts to be had (as indicated by AlanH).

I did ... and it does NOT work, you NEED a road, so sailing can be skipped and we'll loose GLight.
Btw I loose Pyramids, too and I've put stone near my 2nd city.
Land grabbing could be a problem, too if we are NOT isolated
We have to choose, we're on Monarch now.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, I know that's not completely true but I couldn't give you the definitive rule on it.

What I said is completely true. There are only two ways to connect a resource to a city: (1) by road, (2) by river. If the road or river reaches the coast, you can then connect along the coast, but you have to have the road or river to connect the resource itself.

Once a resource is connected to a city, you can connect that city to other cities through any combination of roads, rivers, coast tiles (with Sailing), ocean tiles (with Astronomy).

 

[Murky]

I want to add my thanks to Stormreaver for providing practice games. Hope he will do so again next month.

Does anyone have good information on when the AI on Monarch is likely to complete the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus?

In one of my practice games, Mao Completed The Great Lighthouse in 650BC and I was able to finish the Collossus in 175 BC.