GOTM 107 Spoiler

[Peaster]

Russians - Prince - 5 Civs [not stated] - Restless tribes - small map - restarts on.

After some recent posts about lean EC [a style developed mostly by Grigor] I decided to try it. To me, that means stopping ICS after about 8-10 cities, no trade, no republic, no WoWs, except MPE. Attack with whatever you've got ... ellies, chariots or even horsemen. Hexer pointed out that restarts are on, but I thought I could still use most of the lean machine, considering it's a small map at Prince level.

It didn't work as planned. The main problem was very slow science. I didn't get alphabet until 1850BC, monarchy until 1250BC, HBR until 825BC. Not sure yet if this was mainly my fault, or some feature of the map [eg few trade arrows from whales, rivers, etc?]. Also, for a small map, this one was pretty tough, with a very contorted continent "1" (same number as the ocean, to defeat black-clicking), making quite a puzzle out of navigating the seas.

Despite all that, I guess the lean approach worked OK - but let's see what other conquerors come up with!. I managed to finish in the BC years, with a very lean score. Here's a very lean log:

3950 BC Moscow on grass, go for the size one trick.
3300 Makes Settler.
2900 Have made a warrior. I want SOME defense on small maps, especially when not sure how many civs are packed on it. Demographics suugests 5 civs, but not sure. Hut = Archer. Overall, my hut luck was OK, but not very good.
2700 Another settler and start on Alphabet.
2550 4th City
1400 Monarchy [the tech], but I just missed Oedo.
1000 8 cities, 5 settlers, 2 boats. Have found Aztecs and Greeks [at war].
825 BC MPE Get maps, HBR and a few other techs [not the Wheel], but Poly still seems out of reach. The maps finally allowed some planning:

1) The hard part will be getting to the distant Sioux [+ nearby Tenoch, and a random Greek outpost], but with help from the rivers, I can make a port on that sea soon, with some hope of pushing NW from there.

2) Babylon is not so far away, but it's hard to reach by sea [in my game, there was also an Aztec city in the way]. So, I adopted a plan that Magic and I used in our warrior-only games. I sent in a warrior, followed by a settler, and founded a city right in the middle of Bab territory. Risky, but we were at peace, the city was on a hill, and I could hope for better units to follow these soon.

3) The tech problem ... that I am slowly researching Mysticism, but REALLY need Poly for EC. The Aztecs have Mysticism, but they have all my techs, so they won't trade with me. Finally, I noticed that the Greeks had Pottery, which the Aztecs didn't, which solved that problem. Actually, Civ2 wouldn't let me switch to directly to Poly, but did let me switch to Philo, which was as good.

650bc Poly [the Babs got Poly 2 turns later, but who could predict that?]. I start to get tribute now.

525bc Greeks raze one of my outposts. Then I agree to peace for 150g.
500bc 19 cities [OK, not so lean, but what else does one build, without techs?]

300bc [approx] The conquest starts. The Greeks go down 1st, and return as Carthaginians. The restart zone is revealed [east of the ruins of Greece] and I plan around that. The Aztecs and Babs refused to declare war, so I had to sneak attack them [or maybe switch to MGE!]. Won't reveal the end date, but it was over when I finally reached the Aztec capital. I built LH near the end, for insurance against weird restarts, but it wasn't needed. The green civ had 7!! incarnations, which must be some kind of record, but it wasn't a big problem.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I started this game last week and had also pretty bad research. IIRC I had also Monarchy around 1250 and MPE around 750 BC. I have to play further since that moment but have decided to grow big and try to swallow the other civ's and while expanding the respawns will be elimated easily.

 

[Marlos]

I've finished this game already. That's what happens when you have a week of layoff from work!

The respawns were a killer. I defeated the purple civ 6 times! The game kept respawning them on a peninsula just east of where the greeks had started, so it was easier to find them, but still! Defeated those silly Sioux, Mongols, and Indians twice each. I don't believe that I've ever seen this phenomenon before. Anyone else?

I believe that I finished at 1050AD, stayed in Monarchy the entire time (small world, corruption was low), built two wonders and captured one, destroyed most enemy cities while capturing them. Generally, I stayed aggressive and kept pumping out the crusaders -- and a few triremes once I found everyone else.

Discovered Monarchy in 2250BC, HBR in 2200BC (trade with Greeks), and Trade in 1300BC. Completed MPE in 175BC (forgot to rush it ) while discovering Philosophy and Monotheism (free) in the same year. Didn't destroy my first civ (Greeks) until 280AD.

I wish that I had explored west of the capital sooner, I loved that river delta once I located it!

Great map, gorter!

I suppose that I will play some of the other Civ2 games that I am in the middle of for the rest of the month!

 

[Peaster]

The respawns were a killer. I defeated the purple civ 6 times! The game kept respawning them on a peninsula just east of where the greeks had started, so it was easier to find them, but still! Defeated those silly Sioux, Mongols, and Indians twice each. I don't believe that I've ever seen this phenomenon before. Anyone else?

Actually, that doesn't sound too bad. I've had several games with a total of approx 20 respawns [approx 3 per color]. I don't recall a game in which one color respawned this many times. Maybe that happened here because there were only 5 starting civs. Dunno ... nobody seems to know the algorithm for respawns.

Sounds like your "respawn zone" was the same as mine, east of Greece. Again, nobody knows exactly how Civ2 chooses these locations, but they do tend to repeat, so it's good to send extra armies there asap. They are NOT always the same for different players, probably because they are influenced by city locations. Also, there seems to be some randomness built into the program, which makes it very hard to reconstruct.

 

[CaptTuttle]

Hi all
I had taken a huge break from civII, partly because I had gotten a real job that didn’t let me play on the computer all night and because I loaned my copy to a coworker who never gave it back . Almost 4 civless years.

So the new CD arrived and after a King level game to get back into the swing of things I took a shot at GOTM107 and probably sucked it up. It seemed like I took too long.

I followed my usual plan except I got hanging gardens in place of the pyramids; then Monarchy, Start on SSC, Astronomy, Theory of Gravity, Great Library, Leonardo’s Workshop then Monotheism. Building warriors, catapults, and chariots, and counting on reaching LEO before going to war.

When LEO engaged had musketeers and crusaders, I rolled the Greeks and Sioux early and managed to avoid losing warrior production for some time giving me a lot of expendable musketeers. Only 1 respawn, Sioux, to the island in the northern lake that required building a city to make naval units to get to them. I used an Ironclad to empty the city and Calvary to take it. Aztec’s were the last to go on the land to the west. Not hard to take them out but lots of cities and minimal road work

I was sloppy on city growth and just built military units and moved them to the point of attack ASAP. I am guessing 1808 is pretty slow with only 1 respawn but since it was the first time I ever went for total conquest there were lessons to be learned. Primary keeping the military more focused as I do when in Democracy rather then flung all over the empire.

Never saw the guillotine before.

Good luck all!
CT

 

[willemvanoranje]

Beh. I won't be able to finish as fast as you guys haha. No way. I think I don't control the agressive strategy sufficiently for that. I'm too conservative.

Anyway, I so far only had one restart that I know of.

 

[CharlieChuck]

This was very frustrating for me, and that was even before the restarts. I sent initial troops out too early again and ended up needing second and third waves to finish them off. The sioux took ages to get rid of. I did manage to build most available wonders before I finished, so score won't be that bad, but it wasn't early. Had about 11-13 restarts mostly in western region (aztecs & southern part of west region). Next conquest game i'll wait for a decent size force before attacking.

 

[Peaster]

Wow. We are all having different problems with this little Prince map! Probably randomly generated, too.

I haven't decided yet whether "Lean EC" is good for it. It worked out OK [but not great] in my game, but Magic prefers "Fat EC" here, and CC says his game was too lean. Not sure I know the other players' styles yet.

Charlie: What do you mean by "too early" ? (Weak units ? Not enough units ?) I was planning to take some risks this time, and attack some AI capitals ASAP, maybe with horsemen or chariots, for example. But HBR came so slowly, that I used approx 3-4 ellies per capital instead, and had no real problems. I usually also send Settlers out, at approx the same time, in case I need to rush some extra units in some distant corner of the map.

Welcome Capt Tuttle, and any other new or returning players.

 

[CharlieChuck]

First I sent a few chariots but they just didn't last. then I wasted a lot of ellies on a river city (athens). I sent 1-2 ships to each AI with ellies, managed to destory a city or two in each, but only captured 1 towards the end (apart from athens), this makes a huge difference having no base for future attacks or to rest. Whilst attacking 2nd & third cities I just ran out of units too quickly. Think I'll send settlers next time too, and 3 ships (5 ellies & 1 settler) , go from one extreme to the other.

 

[willemvanoranje]

A turn after getting iron working the hut near Athens produced a legion for me. By the time I got to Athens, they had just produced a settler. The legion crushed their warrior (or was it phalanx?) and the horseman moved in to wipe them out. Unfortunately Athens was destroyed in the process.

 

[Peaster]

willem: As you probably know, there are a couple of EC strategies built around what you did at Athens. One is to rush science towards Seafaring, and then send explorers out to pop huts all over the continent, but especially near the other civs. It works best on a large land mass, but it might work here. Problem here is - blackclicking is useless, so we don't have any clues about the map. The second is the "No City Strategy" which is an even bigger gamble IMO.

Charlie: I still wonder about the "best flotilla" plan for EC. I guess the standard plan is two triremes per AI, with 2 ellies each. More than enough for most coastal capitals. If you can capture the capital, you can build dips there, rest the ellies, and probably bribe away the rest of that Civ. You can sub a horseman [or whatever] for the 4th ellie, since its only role is to enter the empty city.

But, as you probably know, there are several problems with this. If the capital is razed, the ellies are probably not enough to finish the Civ [without dips]. If the capital is inland, the ellies risk ambush. One boat may be sunk en route. City Walls. Etc.

So... another plan is to send one boat per AI with at least one settler on it [probably possible pretty early - before discovering The Wheel or Poly]. Settler makes outpost, which makes whatever you need. An outpost is also very handy when facing a "Withdraw your armies!" message. Since the production there can be slow or expensive, you may send a 2nd or 3rd boat to back this up, maybe 5 turns behind the first. I think this plan is less risky, but maybe a few turns slower, and there is still the risk of losing the outpost to a sneak attack.

It is also reasonable to mix the two plans, or to include diplomat(s) or caravan(s) or explorer(s) in the flotilla. I usually prefer settler(s), for the flexibility, and because I usually have settlers to spare in my homeland even in the 1000BC era. Am curious what others do.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I just finished my game. As mentioned I played fat EC. I expanded against the clock. So the Greek (2 respawns in west part ) went first then Sioux ( no respawn), Aztec civ (1 respawn) and the Zulu (2 respawns). Had no big problems and around 1250 AD there was only one orange settler left which couldn't build a city. After that point I expanded for a better score.

I have a log (detailed 4000 BC - 1000 AD). If somebody is interested I will post it.

 

[Peaster]

I'd be interested, since you have already written it. I'm mainly interested in comparative data like stats at 1000BC, and 1AD, when did you get monarchy, MPE, send out your first flotillas, etc. Also, I like general remarks, eg about special problems with this GOTM and how you met them. But if you don't have notes on that stuff, please don't worry about it.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Ok...I will post it on monday. Gives me some time to make my log complete with extra remarks if I still remember them.

 

[Peaster]

I don't want you to put any extra work into it ... whatever you already have will be OK. Of course, if you want to say more, that's even better!

 

[Magic_gorter]

When making my log I always do the stats after playing. So I have to add those at least. The other part is not that much work but the stats are important to add.....otherwise you can't compare.

 

[Magic_gorter]

This is my first part. The rest is not ready yet.

turn year
1 4000
2 3950 Moscow
3 3900 start learning Alphabet
4 3850
5 3800
6 3750
7 3700
8 3650
9 3600
10 3550
11 3500
12 3450 Alphabet->Code of Laws
13 3400
14 3350
15 3300
16 3250
17 3200
18 3150 St. Petersburg
19 3100
20 3050
21 3000

Status at -3000
Population: 0.02M; Cities: 2; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Despotism
Gold: 0; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 3; Production: 4MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: None
Babylonians: No contact
Aztecs: No contact
Greek: No contact
Sioux: No contact

22 2950
23 2900
24 2850 Code of Laws->Ceremonial Burial
25 2800
26 2750
27 2700
28 2650
29 2600
30 2550
31 2500
32 2450
33 2400
34 2350 Babylonians destroyed by Aztecs
35 2300 Kiev
36 2250 Ceremonial Burial->Currency
37 2200
38 2150
39 2100
40 2050
41 2000

Status at -2000
Population: 0.03M; Cities: 3; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Despotism
Gold: 10; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 5; Production: 5MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 1 Settler
Zulu: No contact
Aztecs: No contact
Greek: No contact
Sioux: No contact

42 1950 Minsk
43 1900 Currency->Monarchy
44 1850
45 1800
46 1750
47 1700
48 1650
49 1600 Monarchy->Map Making
50 1550
51 1500
52 1450 MONARCHY
53 1400
54 1350
55 1300
56 1250
57 1200 Smolensk
58 1150 Odessa
59 1100 Map Making->Trade / Sevastopol
60 1050
61 1000

Status at -1000
Population: 0.13M; Cities: 7; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 47; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 8; Production: 21MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 1 settler
Zulu: No contact
Aztecs: No contact
Greek: No contact
Sioux: No contact

62 975 Tblisi
63 950
64 925
65 900 Trade->Writing
66 875
67 850
68 825
69 800
70 775
71 750 Marco Polo build / got Writing, Literacy, Mathematics, Pottery, Horseback Riding, The Wheel
72 725 start learning Polytheism
73 700
74 675
75 650 hut->Feudalism
76 625
77 600 Sverdlovsk + Yakutsk
78 575
79 550
80 525 Vladivostok
81 500 Polytheism->Chivalry
82 475 Novgorod
83 450
84 425 >0,3M
85 400
86 375 Krasnoyarsk
87 350 Riga
88 325
89 300 Rostov
90 275 Astrakhan
91 250 Chivalry->Seafaring / >0,4M / Kharkov
92 225
93 200 Grozny
94 175
95 150
96 125
97 100
98 75 >0,5M / Dnepropetrovsk
99 50 Maikop
100 25 Seafaring->The Republic
101 1 Kursk

Status at +1
Population: 0.58M; Cities: 20; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 174; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 19; Production: 51MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:Marco Polo
Units: 10 settlers, 1 archer, 1 chariot, 3 knights
Zulu: Uncooperative, Peace, 99 gold, 2 cities
Aztecs: Enthausiastic, Peace, 253 gold, 4 cities
Greek: Uncooperative, Peace, 226 gold, 4 cities
Sioux: Neutral, Peace, 144 gold, 3 cities

 

[timtofly]

Zulu? I have Japan.

When the Aztecs destroyed Babylon there was no respawn. Down to 4. When I took out the Aztecs, Spain respawned. After the Capture of Spain, no respawn, 3 civs left. Why is there such a disparity in respawns?

 

[grigor]

GOTM 107 log

I played about 10 prince small map games to warm up, because I hadn't played in so long. No happiness issues, and the barbs are weak. On Prince, the AI will attack irrationally with its last defender in a city and lose. The issue is usually fast early expansion which seems to need an exploring unit as well as settlers.

4000 move settler to ocean
3950 Moscow. Hmm - only 1 beaker...
3700 switch to forest for size 1 trick
3450 Alph
3200 Settler. move South (oops...)
3050 St. Petersburg
2850 CB - shift workers for more science
2800 warrior for exploration
2400 Kiev
2250 Hut: 50g
2100 Monarchy
2050 Gov: Monarchy

2000 - 3 Cities, 1 settler, 1 warrior

1950 Minsk
1800 hut: Currency
1650 Maps => Trade
1600 hut: Archer
1500 Smplensk
1400 Odessa
1350 Tradeb=> HB
1250 Sevastopol (7)
1200 Tax to 60% - I don't want Poly before Marco
1000 hut: Horse

1000bc - 8 cities - classic lean expansion
975 Hut: 100g
900 Caravans for MPE
879 Axtecs start Pyr
MPE
Sioux: peace, trade for Pots, give Trade, maps
Aztec: give pots, Trade. get maps. no treaty
Greeks: peace, map
Babs: peace, maps. tribute 100g!

Aztec capital on river => need veteran ellies
Furthest are Sioux.

800 Poly. Set science to 30.
750 hut: 50g. No tribute this turn despite 2 ellies
675 First wave of 4 ellies to Sioux.
Tribute: Sioux 75, Babs 50g, Azt: 150g, peace, Masonry

575 Greeks: 100g; Babs 25g; Sioux 25g
500 Babs 25g, Greeks 50g; Azt War; Sioux War
425 Greeks: War
375 Athens
300 x Azt. Find the Egyptians in a new area to the South. Rush trireme and ellies
275 xSioux. Mongols have too much science to get maps.
200 x Babs - no respawn
175 x Greeks - no respawn - not so bad EC play for me, but Peaster manages this part of the game much more efficiently

The rest is mopping up respawns with not quite enough force for maximum speed
.
125 x Egypt. Find Spanish next door. Stumble on Mongols in same area.
100 x Spanish. Find Aztecs next door. My attack force is getting wounded...
75 x Mongols. Find Sioux

FInished in early AD.

 

[Peaster]

Here are some additional stats from my game, which was meant to be "lean", but actually grew rather "fat".

3000BC: 2 cities, Pop .04, 1 warrior

2000BC: 4 cities, Pop .08, 2 warriors, 9g, Mfg 14, 2 adv

1250BC: Monarchy

1000BC: 8 cities, Pop .14, 3 warriors, 5 settlers, 2 triremes, 14g, Mfg 24, 8 adv. Two triremes left port approx 1100BC, carrying 3 settlers.

825BC: Marco

500BC: 19 cities, 6 settlers, 4 ellies.

Similar growth rates to about 1000BC. Seems Grigor and Marlos had better early science, and got to Monarchy sooner. But Magic and I somehow caught up, especially with our Marcos's arriving in approx 800BC. Seems I sent out the earliest flotillas in 1100BC, maybe because of a small edge in early growth, or maybe because Magic was playing fat. Also, I built a small road system in approx 1200BC, which may have helped cut movement delays a little. Grigor, you seemed ready to send out first boats before me, but didn't - were you waiting for Marcos and/or ellies ?

My anti-respawn strategy = 1) Find the map's respawn zone(s), by destroying a civ ASAP. 2) Preserve that zone by avoiding any new cities near it. 3) Flood it with ellies/etc, to destroy any respawns there [preferably before they can build cities]. 4) In case of surprises, build a decent navy for access to all parts of the map [but this step has a lower priority].

Zulu? I have Japan.

Huh?

When the Aztecs destroyed Babylon there was no respawn. Down to 4. When I took out the Aztecs, Spain respawned. After the Capture of Spain, no respawn, 3 civs left. Why is there such a disparity in respawns?

I doubt anyone knows. In fact, almost nobody has even commented on it, but I agree that it is not just luck. My guess is that respawns depend partly on some factor in our games which we haven't discovered yet. Just for example - and this example is almost certainly wrong - maybe if you have researched The Wheel [or whatever], then you get lots of respawns, otherwise not many. Or it could be some internal setting on our computers. Once, after getting lots of respawns several games in row, I restarted my machine, which helped a lot. But that could have been a fluke.