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GOTM 176 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by CharlieChuck, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Wow, the wall gives you an offensive advantage against barbarians then? I certainly did not expect that. You may be the first one to discover this. We should all do some testing of our own to back up your finding.
     
  2. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I'm not pretending that I've done scientific research with a proper method and whatnot: I'm going mostly by feel. But it happened far too often to be attributed to sheer luck IMO, especially given the defensive ratios implicated (and then add in City Walls, which a few barb cities have...) Going from losing a Vet chariot on Kamyshin (rivered Phalanx) 10/10 times to not-a-single-scratch is really borked.
     
  3. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Collective shame on us!
    Direct quote from civilopedia entry on the Great Wall: "Doubles unit attack strength versus Barbarians"
     
  4. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    In my French version, it reads "Force de combat doublée contre les Barbares" which can be translated to "Combat strength doubled against Barbarians". But "Combat" is a really vague word in this context, and my entry didn't specifically mention attack or defence strength. It's a very general word as well, so it would make sense that it includes both attack and defense power: but you never know with videogame translations...
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I also did some rudimentary testing (not a controlled experiment) and just like Jokemaster "feel" the difference.
     
  6. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

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    Hm, doesn't this imply that there is no bonus for defense against barb units attacking us, only for attacks against barbs?
    The same for the german version: "Die Kampfstärke gegen Barbaren wird verdoppelt", which would be referring to both offense and defense.
    I was awre of that, but conquest was going pretty well, so I considered vet crusaders to be enough, so I did not build it. In hindsight, it probably would have saved some units, but this would hardly have been worth 6 vans.
     
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    It does. But then again if you are attacked while inside a city the Great Wall acts as city walls and you get your defense factor tripled. Thus the only case where it does not give you an advantage is when you are attacked by barbarians on open range which in this game is nonexistent.
    I disagree. The issue is not just saving units, but reducing damage. When a unit wins battle so bruised that it has to rest several turns before being combat ready again, it is slowing down the overall progress of conquest. I bet you if you go back to the first point in the game when you could build the Great Wall if you wanted to, and this time do it, you will see measurable advantage that more than pays off for 6 vans. Jokemaster is reporting dramatically better overall results in his replay and it is mostly due to the Great Wall.

    I played till -425 last night when I finally conquered Constantinople. I tore down its city walls and thus used only 5 of the units imposing the siege. I expected nothing in new techs and was delightfully surprised to get Republic from French. I gifted everyone to agree to map exchange and they all did. France and Spain were where I expected them to be. My lead exploring horseman was only 4 tiles away from Paris at the time.
     
  8. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

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    Ok, I see your point. Still, I do not think my conquest qould have been much faster with GW. I expanded my empire from 23 cities in 500 BC to 71 cities in 1 AD, so building the happiness wonders were far mor urgent than even increasing the speed of expansion.
     
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I think the merits is mostly GW rush+ellies first vs. Sun Tzu rush+crusaders first (like you did) vs horseman spam+ragtag ellies like Ali did. I honestly must think that the earlier availability of Masonry vs. Feudalism (plus the fact that ellies can go vet anyways on their own and get the GW bonus still, +saving the warrior slot) gives GW rush the edge. I don't think that getting both is that important (by then you need to save up vans for Mikes+JSB regardless) Oh well. Don't think we'll get that kind of GOTM again for a long time so it's mostly irrelevant anyways.

    In my 3rd replay (restarted again after finding out that the spot at 82,18 had a distinct landmass, lol) I have 76 cities at 350 BC w/o conquering anyone. Yet to play to 1 AD, I'll report back when I'm done. (Update: 101 cities 1AD, one of them Spanish.) Keep in mind my actual 1 AD save has 39** cities after a late GW.
     
  10. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Indeed in a situation like that of this game, the Great Wall is far superior to Sun Tzu which costs the same but comes later and only grants a 50% vs. a 100% bonus against barbarians. Particularly given that almost all your early fights are with barbarians.
    Having said that, I still think my horseman army was a good idea. It takes a while to afford a 300 shield wonder.

    I had 35 cities in -500 and I doubt I will have close to that many (76) by +1. Amazing result. What were your early hut outcomes in this attempt?
     
  11. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I honestly don't remember them, so it probably didn't matter all that much then (Only thing notable was a well-timed 100g hut around 1000BCish). That being said, I must admit that since you both got horses from your initial hut pop, I reloaded until I got a fast unit from the initial pop. (Ended up being a chariot. Only unit I got) Maybe it's a bit much compared to a horseman, esp. since Kungur is defended by an archer: in my initial run I got a horse+archer as units, for whatever that's worth.

    Also, for extra details: Invested heavy resources in 4 vans to speed up GW (1400BC)instead of settlers or regular military units, and delayed Monarchy to get ellies on the field in time for GW completion. After that, it's completely fire-and-forget.
     
  12. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    My first hut gave me a chariot as well. Then I got horseman (which I had to disband), advanced tribe, and none archer. The archer and the chariot did a good part of my early conquest besides the horsemen that I built.
     
  13. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Still plugging at it. 5 turns from landing now. Here's the 1AD-500 AD portion.
    EDIT: Just landed and submitted! Pretty high score. I assume that whoever' going to beat me will simply have done it quicker. (Fairly likely, might I add.)

    1 AD (cont): Poltava stormed for 3g+2 citizens. It’s almost as if the Barbs are counted as their own civilization (and that early on they were rushing defensive units whilst they had gold reserves)

    20 AD: MOSCOW MIKES. Just in time, had hit a critical riot factor juncture. Hut: Legion. Berlin seized for 5g+5citizens. T7L0S3 to rush a boat next turn.

    40 AD: REVOLUTION. T0L6S4. I have awful terrain for celebrations but I’m going to try anyways. Seems like tribute isn’t going to work anymore. But I need Feudalism first. Stralsund seized for 5g+5citizens. Cunaxa built. Kishinev conquered for 4g+5citizens. L

    80 AD: REPUBLIC. Linz stormed for 3g+4citizens. Saxony stormed for 3g+4citizens. No note on TLS, T2L0S8 I’m guessing?

    100 AD: Feudalism > Theology. Carinthia stormed for 2g+3citizens. Kill Phalanx and Barb leader in Abo: ransom 100g, city stormed for… MISCLICK. Oh well. Next turn.

    120 AD: Abo stormed for 3g+5citizens. Karlsburg stormed for 2g+3citizens. TEchrate 3 turns.

    140 AD: MOSCOW SUN TZU. Moscow copper (d) to Krasonyarsk: 76g. Varna seized for 6citizens+3g. Vienna has walls… and only walls. Will need 2 dips. Modena stormed for 1g+2citizens. Mecklenberg stormed for 6citizens+3gold. 3rd trade route in Krasonyarsk. SSC only has only 1/8th of my total science output, that’s unusual.

    160 AD: Theology > Bridge Building. Anhalt stormed for 3citizens+1g.

    180 AD: Sofia stormed for 2g+5citizens. Bach in 2 turns. Halle stormed for 5citizens+2gold. Map looks more like Turkey than Europe tbh. Kill Warrior in Sigmarien, walls don’t seem to matter much.

    200 AD: Bridge Building > The Wheel. Destroy walls in Vienna: kill 2 Legions and storm city for 3citizens+1g. Down to 300g for a bribe, nty. Sigmaringen stormed for 2g+6citizens. Getting closer to the west end of the map. Weimar stormed for 1g+4citizens. Cremona built.

    220 AD: MOSCOW JS BACH. Brunswick stormed for 1g+3citizens. Basle stormed for 1g+3citizens.

    240 AD: Hesse stormed for 2g+6citizens. Hamburg stormed for 1g+4citizens.
    Interturn: Spanish ellie! Give Map Making and Republic for peace and maps. Mother… they stole my empty Barb city!! Goddamnit…

    260 AD: The Wheel > Mathematics. We also see the French NW from the Spanish maps. Luxembourg stormed for 1g+4citizens. Nancy stormed for 2g+6citizens. Cannae built. Dalmatia stormed for 3citizens+1g. Capoue built.

    280 AD: Hanover stormed for 1g+4citizens. Turin built. Gênes built.

    300 AD: Mathematics > Astronomy. Walbeck seized for 6citizens+1g. Visby sacked, dangit. Too many garrisoned warriors. Fiume stormed for 3citizens+0gold. Turin stormed for 4citizens+1g.

    320 AD: Amsterdam seized for 6citizens+1g. Still not celebrating because I want Cope’s. Will attempt some celebrations afterwards but I don’t think I can do much until Democracy/Explosives. Savoy stormed for 6citizens+1g.

    340 AD: Astronomy > Seafaring. French: Trade maps, peace. That doesn’t help me a whole lot…

    360 AD: Pilsen stormed for 2citizens+0g.

    380 AD: Seafaring > University. Venise bribed for 318g, get 5citizens+80g from walls. Bremen stormed for a size 1 city. T5L0S5, still need to bribe 1 more city before making a celebration push. I have a black hat, it will help. Jesus, the northern cities are super defended, all the pop’s gonna die before they are conquered… Passau stormed for 4citizens+0g. Cope’s next turn in Krasonyarsk.

    400 AD: Milan stormed for 4citizens+0g.

    420 AD: Minsk gold (nd) to Pasargades: 62g. Malta bribed for 424g: get 7 citizens and a whole bunch of unnecessary military units! Geez, 16 Legions… Could almost build the entire GL from scratch. You know what? WHY THE FRICK NOT. 15 troop disbands later, GL done next turn. HASHTAG WORTH. T3L0S7, one last rush before celebrations start. Crête built. Genoa stormed for 5citizens. Vérone built. Salamis built.

    440 AD: MALTA GL. Also, civil disorder. University > Engineering. Rly need Demo to celebrate, nvm. T2L0S8. Too much corruption waste. No, If I had gone straight to Demo instead of going for Cope’s I’d already have Democracy gov’t… in 380 AD even! Detouring for Cope’s: NOT WORTH. I have so many cities that my SSC is pretty irrelevant and an inefficient resource hog as well. Doubt an extra 100beakers is going to compensate for the lost trade and later celebrations. Nice stormed for 2citizens. Suse stormed for 3citizens.

    480 AD: Engineering > Invention. T2L0S8. Green civ spotted, but no one in the trireme to establish contact.

    500 AD: Lisbonne built.

    STATUS AT 500 AD: (Beginning of 126th turn)
    Population: 10.720.000 Cities: 89 Governmt: Republic Total advances: 31 (researching Invention)
    Gold: 29 T2L0S8 Income/Cost per turn: 113 income, 44 cost. Production: 509MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Pyramids, GW, HG, Colossus, Mikes, Bach’s, Cope’s, GL, Sun Tzu. Leo’s soon enough.
    Foreign relations: Peace w/Persians and Mongols. Also French and Spanish.


    TL;DR: GW is OP. Also, SSC's are not super important with 90 cities in your empire...
     
  14. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Unnecessary? You are in a war with barbarians and the units are unnecessary? And why build the Great Library? I suppose you could not build any other wonder with those at the time but why not put them towards a courthouse, library, or marketplace?

    When I first discovered Malta I realized it is impossible to capture it outright because there is no landing spot on the tiny island. I was planning on bribing it and using the military forces for conquest. But by the time I was ready to do it, I had more military units than I needed. Instead I decided to keep it as a trading partner particularly for its Hides demand.

    I stopped producing units at around the time I built the Great Wall because I hardly had any casualties and already over 20 crusaders. Battling the rivals I have lost a few but still not enough to warrant replacements; not yet anyway.
     
  15. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    -0475 Persians kill horseman near Pasargadae. Sofia discovered. Lost 2 crusaders on the legion defending Debrecen. Lost a legion attacking the legion defending Mecklengberg.
    -0450 Mongol warrior dies in attack on my crusader. Spice from science city to Varna establishes the first domestic route for 258. Zwickau, Venice, and Vienna discovered. Persian legion approaching Constantinople killed. Crusader kills Mongol elephant and turns vet. Lost 2 crusaders and a vet horseman on Halle killing one of its legion defenders. Vladivostok founded. Vet crusaders kill 2 defenders of Kristiansand.
    -0425 Mongol warrior dies in attack on Vyatka. Wheel -> Construction. Single warrior defender of Karlsburg killed and the city taken for 1g. Constantinople's city walls destroyed. The attack on the city starts with 11 units: A legion kills the archer defender (that was unexpectedly easy), another legion and a vet elephant die wounding the pikeman which is then killed by a vet crusader. The city is captured for Marco and 15g.
    Literacy, peace, Trade -> Babylonian (2) -> maps, 0g
    Peace, Trade, Philosophy, pottery, Seafaring, Monarchy, Masonry, mapmaking -> French (0) -> Republic, maps, 50g. (Horseman who discovered Luxemburg is 4 tiles from Paris.)
    Republic, peace, burial, writing -> English (3) -> maps, 0g
    Mapmaking, peace, Chemistry, Republic -> Spanish (5) -> maps, 0g.
    It is time to decide whether to go for conquest or space ship.
    Points to consider: The terrain is rough but on the other hand there are plenty of roads and irrigation already in place by barbarians. There are plenty of offshore trading opportunities. I already have an assault force of over 30 units but on the other hand they can be used just for the many barbarian cities left. There are only 22 rivals cities and Spain (7 cities) is at war with and may conquer France (2 cities). Britain is hard to reach. There are no visible huts (likely none left) and rivals have no more new techs to exchange so all techs have to be researched. I already have a size 4 science city with Colossus and Hanging Gardens. I have no city structures. There are only three trade routes in place. I have 4 essential wonders and no rival is building any. Conquest it is. 2 Persian warriors killed.
    -0400 Single legion defending Zwickau killed and the city taken for 1g. Single phalanx defending Sofia killed and the city taken for 1g. Lost a crusader on Pasargadae before capturing the city for 17g and barracks. Fiume discovered.
    -0375 French and Spanish sign peace treaty. Single phalanx defending Arbela killed and the city razed for 10g. Crusader lost in attack on Vienna. Dalmatia discovered. Babylonians, Spanish, and English ignore my demand for tribute.
    -0350 Everyone ignores my demand for tribute. Revolution started.
    -0325 Persians kill an elephant near Susa. Once again all ignore my demand for tribute. Republic established. Gems from Vyatka to Malta for 414. Carinthia discovered. T2L4S4
    -0300 Wide spread celebrations. Great Wall built. Construction -> Bridge Building. Killed single legion defenders of Halle and Anhalt and captured the cities for 1g each. Lost a crusader on Viennna before capturing the city for 1g and city walls. Killed 3 legion defenders of Kristainsand and captured the city for 1g and city walls. (The Great Wall definitely helped in the capture of these two walled cities.) Silver to Matla for 120. Dye from science city to Voronezh for 216 establishes the third route of the science city. Mongol warrior killed.
    -0275 Single warrior defender of Weimar killed and the city captured for 1g. Hesse and Bremen discovered. Single archer defender of Basle killed and the city captured. Persian archer defender of Susa killed.
    -0250 Crusader survives Persian attack. Barbarian pirate attacks barbarian city! Bridge Building -> Medicine. Hides to Malta for 208, 184. Crusader kills Phalanx on river defending Hesse, turns vet, and still has movement left to take the city for 1g. Thank you Great Wall! Crusader kills single legion defending Mecklenberg; the city is taken for 1g. Magdelburg discovered. Vet horseman kills single warrior defending Magdelburg and takes the city for 1g. 2 defenders of Debrecen killed and the city taken for 1g. Warrior defending Carinthia killed and the city taken for 1g. Susa razed for 11g.
    -0225 First Library built in the science city which is now size 7. Single warrior defending Prague killed and the city taken for 1g. Hannover discovered. Phalanxes defending Brunswick, Nancy, and Luxemburg killed and the cities captured for 0g, 1g, 1g. Gold to Grozny for 174. Grozny bribed for 280g. Got 57g and 2 archers. Persian civilization destroyed. Novgorod founded on the northern shore of the northern sea.
    -0200 Medicine -> Engineering. Barbarian warrior blocking sea passage near Kristiansand bribed for 22g. Phalanxes defending Dalmatia and Linz killed and the cities captured for 1g. Barbarian warrior killed. Hamburg discovered.
    -0175 Single warrior defending Pilsen killed and the city taken for 1g. Single Phalanx defending Bokhara killed and the city razed for 17g. Mongols are down to one city. Accepted Mongol offer of 50g for cease fire.
    -0150 3 barbarian horsemen from polar hut leave no escape route for my explorer. Single warriors defending Modena and Fiume killed and the cities captured for 1g. 2 defenders of Arkangel killed.
    -0125 Engineering -> Math. Polar barbarians disappear. Single defenders of Sigmaringen, Walbeck, and Passau killed and the cities captured for 1g. Two defenders of Hannover killed and the city captured for 1g. 2 defenders of Breslau killed. Arkangel captured for 1g.
    -0100 Pyramids built. Hides to Malta for 176. Single defenders of Breslau, Hamburg, and Amsterdam killed and the cities captured for 1g. Single defender of barbarian Venice killed but I cannot take the city because Senate thinks it violates my cease fire with Mongols! Met with Mongols and senate handed them peace. Krasnoyarsk founded southwest of Grozny on the shore of the southern ocean (need as many shore cities I can get).
    -0075 Math -> Sanitation. Crusader from European hut. Nice discovered. Venice bribed for 159g; got 1g and city walls.
    -0050 After years of pacifism, the barbarians of Voronezh get aggressive and lose a warrior attacking nearby Kamyshin. Science city reaches size 12. Finally discovered the northern long and twisted passage to England. A canal city could shorten the path by 7-8 tiles. Single defenders of Bremen and Milan killed and the cities captured for 1g. Wine to barbarian Malmo for 150. Palermo discovered.
    -0025 Single defenders of Genoa and Savoy killed and the cities captured for 1g. Barbarian Susa discovered. Barbarian legion killed. Voronezh bribed for 371g since I have no forces nearby. Got 1g and 5 warriors.
    +0001 Renounced treaty with French rather than move troops away; no word from senate. Mongol warrior sneak attacks and kills a wounded crusader. Sanitation -> Astronomy. Beads to Paris for 184. Single Phalanx defender of Orleans killed and the city captured for 30g and barracks. Senate hands peace to French. Single defender of Nice killed and the city captured for 1g. Domestic wool for 52. Construction -> English, Spanish -> maps. Sanitation -> Babylonians -> maps.

    Status at +0001
    Population: 14.0M; Cities: 80; Techs: 29; Government: Republic
    Gold: 328; Cost: 18; Trade routes: 8D9F;
    Ancient Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Wall, Pyramids
    Medieval Wonders: Michelangelo, Marco
    Units: 22 settlers, 23 warriors (1 None), 2 Phalanx, 3 Archers (1 None), 4 Legions (1 None), 5 horsemen, 1 elephant, 28 crusaders, 9 Trireme, 9 diplomats, 35 vans, 1 explorer
    Goals: Shakespeare in science city (under construction), Navigation, Magellan, Lighthouse?; Conquest
    Notes: 13 Russian cities, 1 former Mongol city, 2 former Persian cities, 1 former French city, 63 former barbarian cities. None of the remaining barbarian cities are in my way; I may just ignore them.
    Plan: Take Paris and Seville next turn. This may require dropping out of Republic which I am prepared to do. (I have played a few more turns and in retrospect dropping out of Republic was a mistake.) Move from Seville towards Madrid. Bribe remaining Spanish cities. Trade with Babylonians and then take Babylon; bribe the rest. Take London with forces on the way and with Orleans conquerors as needed. My closest Trireme to London is still at least 7 turns away and would probably be the only boat used for the conquest of England. Take out Mongols last.
    Babylonian: 3 cities, 13 techs
    French: 1 cities, 16 techs
    Spanish: 7 cities, 16 techs
    Persian: Destroyed by me
    English: 5 cities, 12 techs
    Mongol: 1 cities, 12 techs; war with me
    Barbarian: 6 visible cities
     
  16. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I had bribed the city at 420 AD: by that time pretty much all of the Barb cities on the map had been conquered, and I had no intention of sneak attacking the Persians (well, not yet). Could have built mkts, yes, but there was still a deficit of 9 shields meaning that I would have been unable to support 5 of these units anyway, so I ended up going for the easy WoW.
     
  17. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    500 AD (cont) Hambourg built. Hut: Settlers.

    520 AD: Invention > Banking. Babs: They have Banking! But they will not trade maps, I assume because they are salty I’m not sharing Invention. 8 vans in Moscou, Leo’s next turn. Palerno stormed for 2citizens. Prague built. Salzbourg built. Bergen built.

    540 AD: Democracy not available! Choose Gunpowder instead. Moscow Leo’s. Venise built. Milan built.

    560 AD: Gunpowder > Democracy. T5L0S5, going for a 620 AD revolution.

    580 AD: T7L0S3. Gibraltar stormed for 1citizen.

    600 AD: Delivery for 63g. T8L0S2.

    620 AD: Democracy > Explosives. Babs: Nothing. French: 100g. Spanish: Nothing. Mongols: 150g. Persians: 175g. Democracy established. T2L0S8, going to wait until Explosives until celebrating. Last wait, I swear! Magdeburg bribed for 265g to save some citizens. Kristiansand bribed for 416g, get 7citizens+80 gold from selling walls. Pise built. Max techrate still 2 turns, going to change soon. 6 vans in Moscow: SoL next turn. Dublin built.

    640 AD: Deliveries for 41, 30g.

    660 AD: Explosives > Economy. Value it higher than ToG because reasons. T3L5S2 to start celebrations, finally. Toronto built. Melbourne built.

    680 AD: Domestic delivery for 34, 22.
    Interturn: English: Peace, maps. Give IW and Invention.

    700 AD: Pop goes from 12 to 16 million. Domestic delivery for 32g.

    720 AD: Pop goes to 19 million citizens. Going to end celebrations next turn when Krasonyarsk reaches size 12. Wasn’t I supposed to go for EC… Something something strategic drifting. Domestic van for 109g. Probably going to hard research until Railroad+Tactics, then switch to Communism via SoL and conquer all but one.

    740 AD: Economy > ToG. T1L1S8, techrate 1 turn. Really regretting not going for GW first, overestimated the amount of settlers I actually needed for expansion. (What part of “80 free cities up for the taking” do you not understand?!?) Van for 50g. Sydney built. 21 million citizens.

    760 AD: ToG > Navigation. Gift a bunch of techs to Mongols to keep it a 1-turn deal. Van for 111g. Both Adam Smith’s and Isaac’s will be done next turn. Moscow II built. St. Petersbourg2 built.

    780 AD: Krasonyarsk Isaac Newton’s. (310 beakers, 1413 total) Moscow Adam Smith’s. Navigation > Medicine. Kiev II built. 7 vans in Moscow: Magellan’s in 3 turns. Minsk II built.

    800 AD: Medicine > Sanitation. T2L1S7 to rush Sewers in Krasonyarsk next turn. Van for 57g.

    820 AD: Sanitation > Chivalry. T1L1S8. One Elvis in Krasonyarsk to start celebrating. 2techturn next turn. Smolensk II built.

    840 AD: Chivalry > Physics > Steam Engine. Moscow Magellan’s. Foreign delivery for 90g. Domestic delivery for 63g, 45g, 83g

    860 AD: Krasonyarsk Shakes. Steam Engine > Leadership. Babs: Maps after I share Navigation. 4 cities. Vans for 126, 38g, 46g.

    880 AD: Leadership > Atomic Theory (Railroad only other option) Vans: 34, 44g, 90g. The plan for a Communism switch is still ongoing. Can’t do massive celebrations until I get my farmlands better irrigated (until Refrigeration most likely) so I’d rather finish my expansion amongst better-civilized people. Could use GW’s Emissary Ploy to stay in Demo assuming I get war somehow, but I want cavalry just to make sure.

    900 AD: Atomic Theory > Metallurgy. Go time is 960 AD. Going to stay in Communism until all capitals (save for Karakorum) have fallen, at the very least. Going to keep science rates relatively high, Railroad/The Corporation need to come quickly afterwards (but taxes high enough to rush whatever defensive units I need). Vans for 37, 55, 112, 48, 38. Wait a sec. Maybe I can get a 0-turn revolution in Kungur if I sell Temple. Need to be careful about oedo years tho. Shudders Odessa II built. Oedo years 940, 1010 AD. Ok, do NOT hit these ones.

    920 AD: Metallurgy > Conscription. T2L1S7. Sell Temple in Kungur (the very last city to be processed). I need to hit Tactics in 960, instantrevolt thanks to Anarchy Fall w/SoL and almost have all beakers for Railroad (would otherwise overflow with a 2-tech turn and that’s no good). That way, I can trigger the tech and have Darwin’s in Venise. If everything goes OK, I should have Corporation in 980 assuming no offpaths. If there’s an offpath… well, can always delay it one more turn. As long as it’s not an oedo year it’s fine.

    940 AD: Conscription > Railroad… Tactics not available. Well this ain’t gonna change my plans, too late to back down. We’ll wait one more turn where naval support is not available (we do have 0-turns, right? We’ll find out if I can properly pull it off this time…messed up in GOTM173 since I did it in an oedo year) But losing HG might mess up other cities as well if I end up staying in Demo all the way. Civil disorder in Kungur. Krasonyarsk stops growth at size 17. Sébastopol II built. If it doesn’t work, my plan is kinda screwed… need cavalries for Phase II of the invasions! Enter…
    Interturn: Persian sneak attack! Odd timing. THEIR ELLIE KILLS MY RIFLEMAN. Sucks the walls dropped at this specific time. No follow-up, but idk if I can save Orenburg.

    960 AD: Railroad > Tactics. REVOLUTION IN KUNGUR. Instant gov’t choice works! Sweet Daddy D! No unit nearby to save Kamyshin. I’m going to lose the city. Was hoping to kill defenders with Ironclad, kill defenders in Suse, take the city and force a peace treaty w/Senate. But nope... ironclad goes to 60% hp from the getgo. Should have sued for instant peace… why did I counterattack? Wasn’t going to take any city, ironclads are not that powerful… the risk was taken and it backfired, lost my last movement point. Gah, I’m going to lose Conscription for tech… can’t kill them now unless I carpet bomb the capital very rapidly. Vans for 92, 20, 30, 37. Quick switch to Communism.
    Sneak attack Babylone: kill 3 Phalanxes. Bablyone seized for 186g+Walls+6citizens. Kill Phalanx in Ur: Ur stormed for 50g+1citizen. Kill Phalanx in Ashur: Ashur sacked for 14g. Kill Phalanx in Nineve: Nineve stormed for 54g+3citizens. BAB CIVILIZATION DESTROYED BY RUSSIANS. 8 vans in Venise for Darwin’s next turn. Sneak attack the French: Kill Phalanx in Orléans. Orléans sacked for 16g. Tblisbi II built near the ruins of Orléans. Kill 2 units in Lyons: Lyons stormed for 75g+4citizens. Why am I not getting Vet status on my ironclads when I build them? Lighthouse is still active… I’m not getting the extra point either? Why are the technicalities not working? End turn, back to Demo. Hopefully the French don’t force me into a peace treaty, I’d rather keep my reputation higher than 0 if possible.
    Interturn: Persians take Kamyshin, steal Gunpowder. Senate FORCES A PEACE TREATY!!! Kggghkjdbgkfdkhgfdsgbhfdgfkdjgdfsg. At the very least it gives me the sneak attack multiplier. Payback time!

    980 AD: Railroad > Industrialization. Venise Darwin’s, Industrialization > The Corporation > Genetic Engineering. Another 0-turn in Kungur. Democracy. Vans for 156, 52. Techbomb the Mongols a bit. T1L1S8 for a 2-tech turn. 12 vans in Moscow for Women’s Suffrage. Communism. Kill 4 units in Constantinople; Constantinople seized for MPE, 102g+6citizens. Kamyshin bribed back for 243g+ get 74 back. That’s their capital. That’ll teach ya. No uncovered cities. Lose 2 cavalry (??) attacking walled Phalanxes in Paris: capital seized for 84g. One city left for the French. Enter…

    1000 AD: Genetic Engineering > Magnetism > Electricity. Moscow Suffrage. 0-turn in Kungur, instant revolution. REMEMBER: NEXT TURN IS AN OEDO YEAR SO DON’T FORGET TO TURN IT OFF.

    STATUS AT 1000 AD: (Beginning of 151th turn)
    Population: 24.030.000 Cities: 119 Government: Democracy Total advances: 54 (researching Electricity)
    Gold: 212 T1L1S8 Income/Cost per turn: 184 income, 40 cost. Production: 758MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Pyramids, GW, HG, Colossus, Mikes, Bach’s, Cope’s, GL, Sun Tzu, Leo’s, Mag’s, Darwin’s, Adam Smith’s, Isaac’s, Suffrage. CFC soon
    Foreign relations: Babs dead. French down to 1 city. War with Persians. Peace w/everyone else (but not for long)

    Notes: War, expansion, trade. Filler because I didn't actually write any notes for this segment.
     
  18. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    504
    Location:
    Germany
    Hm, maybe I should have gone for the Persians earlier...

    -475 Capture Turin (10), Prague (14); Run into Paris, sign peace, get Republic, Masonry, exchange maps, get 150g tribute
    -450 Michelangelo built; From what I can see, France and Spain are rather weakly protected, maybe we should be striking soon...
    -425 Attacking Kovno, kill 2 defender, at least one more; kill 3 defender in Krakow, no more movement points left; only one in Kamyshin, city captured
    (Mongols want us to join their war with Persia...we agree to keep the alliance)
    -400 Novgorod founded; kill phalanx in Halle (on river) and there is more, do not risk our horse; capture Kovno(9), Krakow (5), Voronezh (9), Nancy (13); demand french tribute, they ignore
    -375 Delivery 192; Capture Basle (7), Milan (9)
    -350 Theo->Currency; Capture Halle (11), Genoa (13), Brunn (13), Debrecen (7); try to kill a warrior on ocean with trireme, lost; demand spanish tribute, ignored
    (Persians kill our crusader outside Baku)
    -325 Capture Weimar (9)
    -300 Capture Hesse (11), Potsdam (11); move troops in position to hit France and Spain
    -275 Capture Persian Baku (33+Seafaring, other choices Math + pottery), Stralsund; get 100g tribute from Spain, attack anyway, capture Sigmaringen (14+pottery); same with France, capture Orlean (6); trireme with dip spots road on cont. 5, let's see if we can bribe a city before contact
    -250 Venice helps repair...; Capture Glatz (9)
    -225 Demanded hides to Akindofmagic for 36; Discover Ur, but it's barb! Bribing would be 228... we do it, get 5g, legion, dip, granaries
    -200 Capture Spanish Freiburg (19), Paris (32), Grozny (12); Discover Babylon, they demand Literacy, no, war, open embassy, they have two cities
    -175 Capture Popitz (12), Berlin (8), Nice (6), Susa (6); was it persian before? It was barb now), Rheims (11), Dalmatia repairs
    -150 Attack on Savoy fails; Lyons and the French civilization destroyed, now we need port cities to build boats to hop over to England, french have built none.
    (Persian elephant kills one of our crusaders)
    -125 Capture Savoy (7), Amsterdam (8), Kishinev (6); discover english warrior north of Rheims, sign peace, gift some techs, exchange maps
    -100 Curr.->Construction; Capture Brunswick (3), Mecklenberg (6), Lublin (5); delivery 80
    -75 Bach Cathedral built; Capture spanish Sevilla (17), Babylonian Babylon (82);
    -50 Pyramids built; Spanish Toledo destroyed, Capture Palermo (3), Saxony (2), Karlsburg (3); Raze Antioch (8+Math)
    -25 Capture Sofia (3), Anhalt (2), Hamburg (2), Walbeck (2); Attack Madrid but phalanx behind city walls holds
    (England takes Bremen)
    +1 Embassy with Persia (they have one more city not on our map); Discover Niniveh (last Babyl city); Raze Cordoba (10); Capture Vienna (2), Hannover (2)

    Stats at 1AD:
    pop.: 9.02M; Cities: 71 (54 former barb); techs: 26; gold: 441; Gov.: Mon; wonders: Pyr, Sun Tzu, Michelangelo, Bach; TR: 5D(mostly empty)/4F
    units: 15 settler, 57 crusader, 23 other army, 2 boat, 2 dip, 6 van
    Goals: Conquer Babylon, Spain, Persia, England, Mongols last; Colossus & HG
    Babylon: 1 city
    Spain: 2 cities
    Persia: 5 cities
    England: 6 cities
    Mongols: 2 cities
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Why?
    Wow, that is pretty early.
    Amazing how you could get your troops there so quickly. You obviously have not taken all barbarian cities on the way and judging by the number of your boats there were not shipped there either.
    Your Spanish have been quite successful battling barbarians. Both of those cities were barbarian in my game.
    No it was not. As you can see in my game I eliminated the Persians early on and saw the same thing nevertheless.
    Amazing. Despite me being ahead in all the other measures you are doing almost as well with the actual conquest. It is going to be a tight race for the green.
     
  20. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    524
    Also amazing how far ahead of me you guys are with your early investments in your military units. GW helped me catch up, but not that well on the first try. Still, unless mercurios is playing looks I'm getting a free blue if both of you are going conquest. Could have been worse!

    (Also, to Ali: I didn't think that keeping Malta as a trading partner was relevant in my game since I was not very well-advanced in the construction of the relevant road networks, so it wasn't an option at the time+using vans for WoWs was more urgent. And since there were many ocean squares around to celebrate (and create an early size-20 city: a relative rarity) my evaluation was that getting the city myself and celebrating it was more worth it to me than leaving it barb.)
     

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