GOTM 23 First Spoiler

[Cactus Pete]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about resource denial (although sending your first chariots to the far reaches would be clever). Chariots and HAs = twice faster conquest on this linear map. The sooner you access horses, the sooner you finish.

Your point is well taken, not ignored. My point may have been missed, however. Obviously access to horses speeds conquest, but in this game there was a considerable cost in speed associated with going after Rome's horses first. Also, melee' units on roads (especially over hills and forests) are actually faster than horses on unimproved land, so multiple workers speed conquest as well and are increasingly important as catapults are produced. Workers are best produced in food-rich cities, like Beijing.

I didn't connect horses until I had conquered (without horses) the Aztecs and captured Tlatelolco in 220 BC. I'd be surprised if anyone, who went after Rome first, managed to eliminate the Aztec's that early.



What's still not clear from Gnejs is whether he immediately connected the horses E of Rome or not. In his shoes, I would have poprushed a settler in Rome, if necessary, to connect those horses.

Indeed, it would have been costly and time consuming for anyone to get horses early. I'd like to know when Gnejs hooked up his horses. I doubt he was too far ahead of me..

As for your subtle hints about My aWard: my new goal is to master this Fastest Conquest. I'm a fast learner, so beware.

There is also the matter of highest score, but I am now forewarned and wary.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There is also the matter of highest score, but I am now forewarned and wary. Well, my goal is ability, so within 10% of the best result is good enough for me. I've done that with highest score and feel I understand how to compete in that respect. I still need to learn some stuff to get to 10% on fastest conquest.

Relatively early conquest of the Aztecs has two benefits: 1) access to horses and 2) elimination of one of the 2 militaristic AIs. Gnejs captured Rome in 1300 bc, so he could have had horses connected within 15 turns, for sure = 850 bc. Meanwhile, Erkon's worker stealing from Mao would have already built the entire road to Mao. You may not have even DoWed the Aztecs by 200bc, but you wouldn't be far away and you'd have already eliminated the most threatening militaristic AI.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"There is also the matter of highest score, but I am now forewarned and wary. Well, my goal is ability, so within 10% of the best result is good enough for me. I've done that with highest score and feel I understand how to compete in that respect. I still need to learn some stuff to get to 10% on fastest conquest."

I think that the combination of score and speed is the best measure of mastery that is currently available. I suspect you'll go there next.

"Gnejs captured Rome in 1300 bc"

Very impressive. I didn't take Rome until 445BC, so maybe that strategy is optimal . . . We'll see.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think that the combination of score and speed is the best measure of mastery that is currently available. I suspect you'll go there next.[/COLOR]

"Gnejs captured Rome in 1300 bc"

Very impressive. I didn't take Rome until 445BC, so maybe that strategy is optimal . . . We'll see.

Both Aztecs and JC in bc is impressive. When did you have horses connected or did iyou focus on swords?

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Both Aztecs and JC in bc is impressive."

I took the city of Rome in 445BC, but the empire didn't fall yuntil 35AD.

"When did you have horses connected or did you focus on swords?"

I was anxious to take advantage of the mobility of horses and used all available workers to connect them about two turns after the city expanded -- so about ten turns after 220BC. I started building war elephants and cats in my distal cities (and HA's in the ones nearer my capital) once the Oracle brought me Construction, also in 220BC. By that time, I already had all the swords I thought I would need.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I must admit that the odds-on favorite for Whimp of the Week makes a good point.

As for your subtle hints about My aWard: my new goal is to master this Fastest Conquest.

That's not a subtle hint! Funny maybe - but subtle?

I guess that the archer rush will turn out to be the best strategy - we will see when the final spoiler thread opens.

 

[jesusin]

Jesusin, contender, goal fastest spaceship.

1.- The plan
Built 2 warriors (but not too soon, it's only noble AI) and steal workers. Kill 2 civs to get enough room for my 10-15 cities. Get cottages going very soon. Take free CS from Oracle. Early Academy. The capital, in Bureaucracy, with Oxford and Academy will rush me through the techtree. Prioritize beaker-increasing techs all game long.

2.- Moving the settler
Scout 2SE sees crabs too far away from the cows. Settler moves 2W to the hill. On the second turn, settler moves 1E and settles there in order to maximize cottages. I am 1 turn behind those who settled 1W on the first turn. Was my movement a mistake?
No , it wasn't. Think what would have happened if there had been a corn 2W of the hill. Even if only the desert tile had been a FP, I would have been ozens of turns ahead of those settling W. So I don't think it was a mistake, I used my first turn to gather information and then took an informed decision, which just happened to be to go back E.

I'm undecided whether to roam a bit with the settler or not. It is Epic speed so I probably will.

Start by disbanding your settler to show how bold you are. It's only Noble.

Well, disbanding the settler would have taken down my chances of winning, while gathering as much information as possible increased my chances of victory. Maybe my comment about Epic speed is what felt wrong to you. When taking the decision to not settle on the first turn, you should consider the speed you are playing on as much as the visible map. Would you move
your settler for 9 turns in a Marathon game? Probably not, 9 turns is too much growth and production and research wasted, isn't it? Would you move your settler 2 turns in a Quick game? When you move your settler 2 turns in Quick speed you sarifice as much growth, production and research as when you move your settler 9 turns in Marathon. That's why Speed should be considered.

3.- Initial steps
Research: Agr-AH-Wheel-Pott. Then BW.
Production: Wor(pastured cow first thing)-War-war-set(at pop3)-war-set
Exploration: my scout kills lion (oh, that's how noble is!). See Rome, turn back, see Beijin.
Worker stealing: Mao 2380BC, success; Rome 2080BC (war died, no replacement, Rome has gold mined so early Prats... When I see his copper, I decide against Archer rush and go for fast peaceful expansion instead, I am a chicken) worker eaten in the strait; Mao 1000BC, worker killed in the strait.

4.- City placement
Capital 1W of starting position, corn, cow, silk, 6 grass.
#2 2FP, cows, wines, marble, river.
Everybody seem to have gone for the gold with the second city. I hadn't seen the corn in the NW tip, and my priority was settler-building and Oracle. It also closes the door to Roman expansion, so I think it is a good move. Am I wrong?
#3 corn, crabs, gold, oasis. My GPFarm later on.
#4 sheep, corn, wines, on a PH, full of hills.
Nice production city. The bad news about it came when I discovered there were no strategic resources in our land. The way I had settled my cities, particularly this one, made acces to Ivory impossible till much later than 1000AD.
#5 in Mao's land, 3FP, species, wines.
#6 fish, crabs.
#7 fish, clams, shared marble.

5.- Progression
1000BC: 4 cities, 4 cottages, 15bpt.
CS slingshot in 595BC. Alpha 430Bc.
Barb Axe and Mao's Swords make me research Archery. Mao worker goes to the cow once again, but I spare him (I am a double chicken).
Academy 370BC.
Construction 235BC. Start buidling my only-cats army, very slowly, I prioritize growth now that I have got Calendar and Monarchy.
1AD: 7 cities, 18 cottages, 100bpt.
Dow Mao for real in 200aD, with 10Cats+2Arc+Cat reinforcements coming.
275AD: Monte had Feudalism.
380AD Mao is no more. Razed 1, kept 3. 12 turns of war, cats-only wars are big fun.
500AD: 11 cities, 32 cottages, 150bpt. Whipping Universities all around, a few turns away from Liberalism.

 

[Erkon]

Jesusin, contender, goal fastest spaceship.
...
4.- City placement
Capital 1W of starting position, corn, cow, silk, 6 grass.
#2 2FP, cows, wines, marble, river.
Everybody seem to have gone for the gold with the second city. I hadn't seen the corn in the NW tip, and my priority was settler-building and Oracle. It also closes the door to Roman expansion, so I think it is a good move. Am I wrong?
...
500AD: 11 cities, 32 cottages, 150bpt. Whipping Universities all around, a few turns away from Liberalism.

Yes, I think you're wrong since the AI does not expand that fast on noble.

Still, very impressive with Education 500 AD. Did you gift any techs to improve your own tech pace? What techs did you get in trade?

 

[Lawrence]

Contender, goal: try some exotic things and milk to 2050AD.

Well, by exotic things I only had two in mind:
1. Try to do the Education slingshot and build Newton's University before I attack anybody.
2. Try to research as many future techs as I can.

Failed Education slingshot by a long long way... After beaten on Judaism for 1 turn I tried to switch to CS slingshot. But that turned out to be impossible either since I had strayed way too far, and the AI has an unexpected early Oracle date, 690BC. Man, is that Noble?

So, with those failed slingshots my lands are in a mess, although I did build the Pyramids and GL in the capital. I tried to recover by researching Construction and going after Mao with cats and elephants. by around 400AD Mao was reduced to 1 city and I sued for peace. That phase was completed long long ago so I didn't remember what's the tech I've got at the time, must be very bad since I didn't even have Machinery at the time.

Anyway, I am going for the cow so it is acceptable to have fat, lazy steps since it just won't count right?

 

[LowtherCastle]

worker eaten in the strait; Mao 1000BC, worker killed in the strait.

How are you moving your workers? When I'm trying to bring a worker home, I would only move him 1 tile at a time across the straight, so that I can see if there's a barb ahead and retreat if necessary. Takes longer, but far safer. In fact, I do the same with my scout...

 

[PutCashIn]

I too had a good laugh about no res's for war units (and a sigh at the elephants, as I assume for the good poeple they are more than enough).

Especially as I played half the game the night it was released, and people were still talking about 'sword rushes' 5 days into the open season.

Also notice the one calander res on our start, a better one next door (same one in either direction) and an ever better (used with many religons) one on the next continent (same ones in defferent direction again!), maybe I read to much into it lol...?

Because I'm a whimpy builder, I didnt attack befor 500AD, but some intersting things happened:

1. Parthenon was built in 600BC, Great Library in 215AD, Taoism founded 275AD.
2. Just befor I went to war with Mao, which was after 500AD so it can wait, I got a 'lucky' copper in a mine, and one turn later, a 'lucky' gem in another citys mine. w00t.

Ive played a bit of ring/hub/wheel map's, with gf and friends, mao is definatly close enough to put a city his side of the isthmus, and having a city on the innner coastline and outer coast line of your continent helps for naval strength, not so much in wheelmaps. (outer coast still applys)
Railroad helps on the bigger maps when your best production is 4 or so continents from the front line.

 

[PutCashIn]

The parthenon, GL and Taoism were all done by other civs, at times when I wasnt expecting such to happen. Good on them.

 

[jesusin]

. Did you gift any techs to improve your own tech pace? What techs did you get in trade?

Before the 500AD threshold I didn’t gift any techs and I got very little in trades (maybe hunting and similar techs). More details in the second spoiler.

How are you moving your workers?

Too fast.

What do you do when there are barbs in front of you? Move back and pray they go away? Disturb your settler-production and send a new warrior?

Wait! I have just come up with a reason why I move my stolen workers so fast! It's to reduce the barb-spamming-in-the-strait probability.

 

[Erkon]

...
Wait! I have just come up with a reason why I move my stolen workers so fast! It's to reduce the barb-spamming-in-the-strait probability.

Does anyone know how fog-busting really works? Does it matter what tiles are revealed during the turn? I thought so before, but after a bit thinking, it would make the programming much simpler if the probability was based on the number of fogged tiles when the barbs are generated. If so, jesusin, the probability does not change in general, although the risk that a barb is generated in front of you decreases. On the other hand, the chance that a present barb disappears is also decreasing. Me thinks you have to come up with a better reason

 

[jesusin]

Me thinks you have to come up with a better reason

Using all my cunning and acumen, I have come up with another one:
The sooner the worker makes his way back, the sooner he'll start improving tiles.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What do you do when there are barbs in front of you? Move back and pray they go away? Disturb your settler-production and send a new warrior?

Wait! I have just come up with a reason why I move my stolen workers so fast! It's to reduce the barb-spamming-in-the-strait probability.

In this game the main purpose of the workers is to road to the next enemy, at least for conquest. So what I did was have the worker start roading on the spot (for you this would have been at China). But otherwise, yes, the worker tries to outsmart the barb, although usually I would have the original warrior escort the worker. As far as I know, workers don't defog for the purposes of preventing barb spawning.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Does anyone know how fog-busting really works? Does it matter what tiles are revealed during the turn?

I did a CIV vanilla experiment with a scout once. He could defog an entire peninsula if he moved back and forth between two tiles. After a while, a barb spawned, so he only was defogging where he stood, not where he had just looked.

 

[jesusin]

In this game the main purpose of the workers is to road to the next enemy, at least for conquest. So what I did was have the worker start roading on the spot (for you this would have been at China). But otherwise, yes, the worker tries to outsmart the barb, although usually I would have the original warrior escort the worker. As far as I know, workers don't defog for the purposes of preventing barb spawning.

I think you are right doing things the way you do. In general I do that too.

In this particular game
-there was no way to outsmart the barb
-roading is not so important so early in a peaceful game
-the original warrior was waiting for the next worker to appear, the main aim of the worker-steal was not to win workers (I had built 1 first thing) but to stale the AI.

I think that workers defog as well as any other unit. The tiles around them are visible, so no barbs would spam right by their side.

 

[LowtherCastle]

In a practice game, I was roading back from the AI and halfway down the isthmus, a barb came flying out of nowhere, USING THE ROAD I MADE NO LESS, and ate my worker. So I learned: build roads to completion only every other tile and on the in-between tiles, bring road to 1 turn less than completion. (Adjust appropriately for hills and forest). That way, when the stack is on the move, it only needs 1 worker to ensure that the stack can always move two tiles at a time. In the case of chariots, 2 workers to be able to go 4.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Hi,

As I'm new to the board, here's some info first: I've played since CivII, but I've never played anything beyond 'Noble'. Always played the game 'to play', without any strategy or thinking about how to win.
Over the last weeks, I've been lurking around this forums, reading articles in the War Academy, Sulla's Walktrough, Sirian's and Sulla's Cuba-Hydra, any some other stories ... and I think I've improved a bit.

This GOTM being on Noble, I thought this was perfect to join in ...

Settled 1W, and set research to Agr and AH (no horses ).
Next techs were Fishing (too early ) and Archery, because I was afraid of JC's Praets. Then I went for Wheel and Pottery, to be able to pay for my future cities.

Hamburg founded in 2350BC near Fish, Clam and Marble in the NE, to act as Worker-Settler-City. Next research BW (no copper ), Munich founded in 1360BC south of Hamburg, near Wine and Cow, to block off Julius and Bremen founded 880BC, in the NW near Clam, Corn and Gold, to block off Mao.

Researched Masonry and Sailing before IW, but I can't remember why .
Not too bad finally, as I didn't get Iron, so I founded my next city in the desert near Ivory and Corn.

Researched MC first, to get forges, then bee-lined to construction, to have some military, at last. In the mean-time, I founded Frankfurt (Crab and Fish), Essen (Sheep and Wine) and Dortmund (nothing ) in the 3 remaining spots on my 'island'.
Got Construction in 365AD, and started spamming Cats and WE to meet near Chinese Borders.

In 500AD, I was N°1 in population, had good relations with JC, Liz and GW, whereas Monti and Louis didn't have any friends, due to their own religions.
Mao was weak, and I thought he could give me some nice new cities, and some iron!
I had build the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse, to get max- out my 6 coastal cities and I began to think about a Diplomatic Win ...