GOTM 27 - Game Of The Year pre-game discussion

Originally posted by HookEmHorns


My understanding from the boards (though I have not experienced it) is that if you capture the needed wonders you don't get the Golden Age then, but you will when you build your next wonder. Can anyone confirm or deny?
The majority of posts I have seen on the subject say that's the case, but I've no experience to confirm it. The theory is that whenever you build a wonder the software scans all the wonders you currently own and checks to see if you now have enough for your Golden Age. It doesn't do the check at the time of a capture. Seems reasonable. That would widen the options as you could capture Ancient Age wonders to complete the set, then trigger the Golden Age with another wonder when you want it.

I understand the attraction of the Lighthouse, as it dramatically improves ocean travel, mainly because voyages can start and end at sea. With the extra movement point as well, a galley can cross 4 extra ocean tiles safely. Hmmm ... I really don't want to wait until Hoover for a Golden Age. Gambling on a convenient and accessible neighbour to build your other wonder seems a bit optimistic, but there are three possibilities so maybe it's worth the risk.
 
@ Offa

There was a good (and thorough) discussion of this in the pregame gotmXXIV - Korea thread, I believe (or the gotm XXIV speculation thread). The short answer is that as long as you control at least two wonders that meet your civ characteristics, but you MUST build a wonder (could be one of the two required, or not) the game will run a check to see if you have met the requirements and if you have, voila: GA!

Don't forget that our UU now has lethal bombard but that would be a very lage Golden Age trigger.

To follow on AlanH's commentary, the following are Expansionist wonders:

Colossus (AA); Great Lighthouse (AA); Copernicus' Observatory (MA); Magellan's Voyage (MA); and SETI Program (MdnA).

Industrious wonders are:

Pyramids (AA); Great Wall (AA); Hanging Gardens (AA); Hoover Dam (IA); and Manhattan Project (MdnA).

There are plenty of opportunities to trigger a GA in the AA, but our productive capacity is not that powerful at that point.

Supposing that we have an Industrious Wonder from the AA then the earliest we could trigger a GA would be late in the MA with Magellan's or Copenicus'. This would be a good way to spring into the IA.

My preference would be though to prepare for Hoover through the Theory of Evolution jump and a prebuild. I have done that three times now in tests and a gotm and it is brilliant. Your productive capacity is way up there as you probably have a factory with hydro capacity combined with the effects of a GA! The down side is that it is a long way to the middle of the IA to wait but my games always go into the IA so it isn't that bad.

Anyway, my two cents worth.
 
I agree that seafaring will be a big part of this game, and don't expect a crowded starting continent. For this reason, I will build no more than two scouts (for a total of three). Contact with the other civs will come soon enough, and even two scouts is enough to map out where to settle in the short- and long-term. Popping huts is the only advantage to building more scouts, but with the Iroquois also having scouts, the Aztecs JWs, and the fast starts of the Predator AI civs, I don't expect to find any far-off huts, anyway.

Early expansion should be interesting. The Aztecs shouldn't be too much trouble, and if there is a third AI civ on the continent, I expect them to be relative pushovers as well. On the other hand, fighting the Mounted Warriors of a Predator-enhanced Iroquois Nation doesn't sound like much fun. I have yet to decide whether I'll settle for peaceful co-existence until the Middle Ages, or try to overwhelm them with a horseman blitzkrieg and (if possible) quick resource capture. It'll probably depend on how good a trading partner the Iroquois are.

I intend to shoot for a medieval GA, regardless of what victory condition I settle on, as building fast banks and universities is usually of more value to me than fast factories and hospitals. This complicates my wonder selection. I agree that the Lighthouse will be key, as it may be the only way to have global before the late Middle Ages, even if those contacts are worth less in a Monarch game. The only problem with it is how to trigger a medieval GA. The Pyramids are tempting, even with an expansionist civ, and I wouldn't gamble on a continental neighbor building it.

I don't think I'll go for a space victory, as moving synthetic fibers to robotics slows the victory date, and I doubt the Jason scoring system accounts for this.

I do have one question about one of the rules changes mean, as I know next to nothing about C3C: what is the Seafaring trait?
 
Just a note:

Everyone should pay particular attention to the changes that are being made for this game. Some are pretty drastic, and I don't think everyone has viewed them all.

See the changes

I think the fact that there are such large changes to normal gameplay should be much more emphasized on the game preview page. And just my two cents, I don't really like the changes either. There are too many too fast. We will be playing nearly a completely different game here.

Hergrom
 
Yes, it is definitely worth reviewing that list of changes!

I don't agree that this is too many changes, because the changes make CivIII/PTW the same as Conquests in the areas they affect.

I think this is a good thing - for people who have installed Conquests, this will increase the appeal of still playing this GOTM; for people who haven't installed Conquests this will give them some feel for the differences in the newest version of Civ.
 
There was a Tournament game in season 4(?) where you STARTED in the Modern Era and the idea was that you'd have to use units all the best players never get to use at all. A guy by the name of 'cracker' won the game in the Veteran Division in an obscenely short amount of time--but the AI play was very 'broken' due to having so many Wonders to choose from at the start.


[cracker hat]

From reading all the changes, I suspect that this game is designed to force us into the Modern Era to get the win. We'll be stuck over here on an island with NO settler factory possible anywhere (or at least not anywhere close to the start) and only one neighbor while the AI will all be buddies 'over there'--though probably on two or three different island continents to keep contacts from being traded.

However, the AI will be luxury rich and we'll have one or two at most, so they'll get a boost that way, too. Critical resources will NOT be available on our home continent so we'll have to island hop to obtain the ones we need to build the next unit to get the next resource...

For most players, by the time we catch up the Modern Era will be upon us and we WILL have a chance to use Naval Power with Fighter cover (to keep from being sunk while invading!) and even Helicopters and Bombers instead of ignoring them as usual.

[/cracker hat]


In any case, I think I'll have fun and that I'll also do about the same as always--since I'm not a 'bleeding edge' player.


==edit====

Or then again, maybe Sir Pleb is right and this is all just to emulate Conquests! Who are you gonna believe, me or Sir Pleb? :crazyeye:
 
The rule changes are going to make the naval game a lot more important.

Consider:

1. Suicide galleys are more important than ever because of the late map-trading date. Put a scout on every suicide galley and soon you will know much more about the world than the AIs. As far as I know, the AIs never send suicide galleys!

2. The offenisve stats of Frigate and Ironclad are much improved, esp. Ironclad.

3. Marines have an advantage over Infantry (!!!)

I think port cities will be important--I am tempted to move the settller to the coast (I know, I Know, that not only goes against the consensus, but is probably wrong, too--maybe city 2 or 3 will be coastal instead).

By the way, if Cracker has made a historically-based (or morphed) map, the Americans are going to have to discover the "Old World". With all due respect to Prime Minister Hugh Grant, let's see who colonizes whom (just kidding and the movie was better than the NYT review).
 
My scattered pre-game thoughts:

Opening Moves

We're obviously short of food initially.

One bit of good news: If our worker irrigates immediately on the start tile, and we move the settler one step, our first growth will occur at the same date as if we settle immediately and move the worker instead. So moving our settler one step at the start costs two shields and two gold but does not cost any food.

I plan to begin by moving the scout south. Depending on what he sees he'll go south again or east following the river (or perhaps even west if a reason for such a move appears.) If the scout doesn't see any bonus tile(s) I'll move the settler SW, to stay on the river but reveal one more tile. And if there's still no sign of a reason to move the settler further after this date, then I'll have the worker start irrigating. Next turn the scout will explore a bit more before I finally commit the settler.

Effect of the Modified Rules

I'll just list the modified elements which seem most important to me here.

1) The biggest change is that we'll get much further into the game before being able to trade contacts or maps.

This means that exploration is more important than ever. The more Civs your exploring units meet, the more trade opportunities you'll have, and the less it will cost to get techs which are already known to multiple AIs.

Exploration is also important for maps. You need world knowledge and until well into the Middle Ages you have to get it yourself. And when map trading becomes possible, the initial value of your maps depends on what you've explored.

2) Be careful about Republic. With a very small military+worker force, Republic can actually be cheaper than it previously was, because there's a bit of free unit support. But if your military+worker force grows very large, Republic can become painfully expensive.

If you are going for Republic early then I recommend:
a) Keep your unit count low. We have the advantage of being industrious, so the map may allow us to forge ahead with less workers than usual. Of course any workers you can get from the AIs don't require support, and because we're industrious they're quite useful, so try to get them in trades.
b) Build a lot of towns and grow them to cities where possible, to increase free unit support.

Much later in the game, if you've been expanding aggressively, Republic shouldn't be a problem. Once you have a lot of towns and cities you'll be able to support a good number of units at no cost, better than before :)

3) "Seafaring Civs may exist in your game"! I think that such a Civ is likely to have modified units with better water movement. The possible (probable?) existence of such Civs implies a couple of things:
a) We're probably not on a Pangaea map.
b) We probably won't get exclusive over-seas contacts. (Not that exclusivity matters as much with the delayed trading of contacts.) A seafaring Civ with extra water movement might be able to cross safely where other Civs can't.

4) I think that the AIs cannot be counted on to prioritize research of Writing and Map Making as heavily as usual.

5) The Great Wall may actually be useful now depending on the situation :)

6) Depending how things unfold, Marines and many sea-going units may be more useful than we're used to.

Research

I plan to start with research at zero, on Ceremonial Burial so that I block that cheapest of techs from discovery in a hut.

When I learn Alphabet (from a hut or a trade) I'll probably start actively researching Writing at that time. (I'll stay at zero research a bit longer if it seems likely that a lot of huts are still available.) I want to hurry down the Writing path toward Republic. At Monarch level I don't expect the AIs to be a lot of help in research. I'll pick up side-techs from them in trade of course.

Wonders

At Monarch level it should be possible to build some Ancient wonders. (Though I am wary of the warning we've had that this won't be a cake-walk - perhaps some AIs will start quite strong and snag the Ancient wonders.) I'm not sure which ones I'll go for, if any. If I do go for any, Pyramids will be high on my list.

My initial thinking is that the combination of Lighthouse and Pyramids, if possible to build both, could be best for triggering a Golden Age. But since I do want to leave Despotism before the GA this will depend on research speed to Republic vs. when someone discovers Map Making and starts the race for Lighthouse. The alternative to this approach will I think be Copernicus' instead of Lighthouse.

Warfare

Too early for me to decide. If a great opportunity for a minor early war appears, at Monarch and with a food poor start, this might be a good map to take it. Or it might be better to expand and hold off on war until either Knights or Cavalry. If waiting till Cavalry, doing fast and highly targeted research will be important.

One thing to be especially wary of: It seems likely that Iroquois will be a neighbor. If they are, once they get horses connected be wary of them!

Miscellaneous

I haven't decided on my goal in this game yet. I'll wait till a while after starting, so I won't be going for 20K culture :) If I think I have time for it I'll probably go histographic on this one since I haven't done that in quite a while, and because it will ensure that I see all of the map and whatever special treats it contains.

I think one very important rule while playing this one will be "stay flexible!" This is Cracker's GOTY and he's been thinking about it for a long time. I expect it will have some interesting elements. In some cases we may have to adapt our plans to avoid being pummeled, and in other cases we may be presented with significant opportunities if we adapt to take advantage of them.

See you in the spoilers!
 
SirPleb, I already stated I maybe would be going for histographic!

Darn, now I have to find another winning condition :)
 
Now we're up for a grand finale... I can only expect the best of Cracker's contributions, and plenty os easter eggs!

I like Sir Pleb's idea of irrigating the start, and moving S or SW. I'll probably move the scout N, but I've not firmly decided. I expect this is a huge continents map, with us starting near to Jamestown, but we'll have to see. I'm heading for republic.

Good luck to all!
 
Well, I haven't seen any "official" announcement, but it looks like Ainwood wasn't kidding about New Year's New Zealand time, as the save is available for download!! Good luck everyone, I know what I'll be doing tonight!
 
As i'm a newbie to gotm (having only played 2 games) i might be wrong here, but in the games i've played there havent been any huts (none that i've found anyway). How come some think there will be any on this map?
 
Originally posted by Salte
... in the games i've played there havent been any huts (none that i've found anyway). How come some think there will be any on this map?
This has varied in Cracker's maps - some have had considerably more huts we could reach than others. The one thing which has been consistent is that he's never had goody huts near the start position. Those are the ones which can be a large luck factor and imbalancing - a game that gets a settler from a hut in 3950BC is in a different universe than one which gets a tech from the hut. So it makes sense to me that he never has huts near the start.

I'm thinking there's a good chance he's left some huts around this time, once we put some distance between our scout(s) and the start position, because we're playing an expansionist Civ. But there's no certainty in this nor in other guesses such as the majority guess that it will be continents. I'm hoping to finally get started tonight and discover some of the answers! :)
 
>GOTM27 features: The Great Wall Wonder: now gives free walls in all your towns/cities on the continent

Does this mean additionally to bonuses it normally gives?
 
SirPleb, what ending date are you shooting for? Just wondering. :)
 
That really gives the great wall a new lease on usefulness. The only problem I see is that the AI will most likely snag it in the big pyramids wonder cascade that goes up to the hanging gardens. That could be a problem, all those AI cities will become very hard to conquer with swordsmen and archers. :(
 
Originally posted by Affirmative
SirPleb, what ending date are you shooting for?
I'm still having trouble getting a starting date :lol:

If I have time for a milked game then 2050AD (with apologies to gozpel :) ) Otherwise, no target in mind yet.
 
I've nearly finished GOTM26 (aiming for tomorrow, the 6th, so I'll have another day if need be), and should be starting on the GOTY shortly after. (Yay!!) I'll only have a little over 3 weeks to finish the GOTY, so I plan to build a small compact civ, minimize warfare as much as possible, and probably go for Culture20K or UN victory condition.

There was a Strategy and Tips thread regarding adding the worker back in to the starting city to build a Settler faster. In that thread I stated that the Americans are the best civ to try this with (Industrious allows you to improve more tiles before joining the worker, and Expansionistic allows you to have some scouting capability without building any additional units.) Anyway, I may attempt doing this if nothing else looks more appealing; this is a fairly food-poor start, and joining the worker will allow a 2nd city much sooner than the food growth would otherwise permit.

Having a river is a god-send; otherwise, you'd probably have to trek in some random direction to more fertile tiles. The industrious worker can irrigate pretty quickly allowing at least a minimal growth rate. And the Monarch level will allow fairly quick research relative to the AI; the river is a definite bonus here. I'll have to assess whether I do minimal or maximal research, but either one should work okay. Unless the scout reveals something else really soon, this spot is adequate.

I haven't really thought through all the Conquests-type mods in this Game. I suspect that contacts will take a while to develop (much like the Carthage GOTM), and moving the Contact and Map trading to the MidAges will change much of the early trade dynamic that was such a major focus for the early AA. Things are definitely shaken up :) so I plan to be as flexible as I can.

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