GOTM 28 Spoiler 2 - End Of Middle Ages, All Contacts, Full World Map

[Megalou]

Originally posted by SirPleb:

Oops! I forgot entirely to allow for MPs. I guess because I seldom use them.

Would that were so for me too. I've come to realize that one of the reasons I don't go for domination wins is that I absolutely hate when my towns flip. Flips give me that cold gut feeling every time and I can't seem to get over it. As a result, I tend to keep a few percent of my attack forces in or around captured towns. It makes my offensive tactics messy, even though in other respects I think my offensive tactics are good.

N.b: When it comes to towns I've built myself, i.e. towns really unlikely to flip, I have no qualms about leaving them undefended.

What I need to do is play a few non-GOTMs where "not so much is at stake" and purposely leave captured cities undefended - just to see how much the flips really matter.

Dunno if this reflection is interesting to anyone, unless they have the same figment of their imagination. I just realized that my version of MP-use probably makes warmongering a lot less fun. In this GOTM, I ventured so far as to have 1 or 2 empty former Roman towns while still at war with Rome, but this was probably just because I knew that I would be able to take them out very quickly even with the odd flip (which did not occur).

The not so green, except with envy, Megalou

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Megalou
Dunno if this reflection is interesting to anyone, unless they have the same figment of their imagination. I just realized that my version of MP-use probably makes warmongering a lot less fun. In this GOTM, I ventured so far as to have 1 or 2 empty former Roman towns while still at war with Rome, but this was probably just because I knew that I would be able to take them out very quickly even with the odd flip (which did not occur).

I keep one MP in a captured town just until it is out of resistance, but only because I want to be able to rush stuff in it, including settlers, and you can't rush while in resistance, and you can't end resistance if you have no MPs.

Flips are an opportunity, not a problem. I always starve and/or settler/worker rush a captured city down to one foreigner. If a captured city flips and I retake it that's one less foreign pop point I have to worry about. I try to ensure that I have at least one attacker within range of any city susceptible to flips so that I can recapture it immediately. But if my offensive is running short of units I have little hesitation in moving such units into the front line temporarily. Moving the front line forward takes top priority.

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by AlanH

I keep one MP in a captured town just until it is out of resistance, but only because I want to be able to rush stuff in it, including settlers, and you can't rush while in resistance, and you can't end resistance if you have no MPs.

I learned the hard way on this GoTM how hurtful a town flip with 8 healing cav's can be. I will follow this advice for now on, though I think it's important to note that the towns don't flip on the 1st turn of occupation. Therefore, you can place a lot of injured units in the town to quell resistance as much as possible. After the 1st turn, I will now resolve myself to move everyone out except 1 unit.

This note is coming from someone who finished 89 turns behind Sir Pleb, so you may trash it if desired.

 

[Megalou]

Originally posted by AlanH
But if my offensive is running short of units I have little hesitation in moving such units into the front line temporarily.

That's what I want to hear. Don't see how starving people is an "opportunity", but I guess it's the right thing to do.

Originally posted by grahamiam
This note is coming from someone who finished 89 turns behind Sir Pleb, so you may trash it if desired.

Not at all! Being closer to my level than SirPlebs, you might have a better understanding of my problem. In fact, you just pinpointed the moment when it's time to be resolved an send out the troops again. For your information, I have read previously in the forums that a town cannot flip until 3 turns after capture. Too bad about those cavalries.

 

[Drazek]

Regarding garrisons of captured towns:

Originally posted by Megalou
3 turns after capture. Too bad about those cavalries. [/B]

Yes, 3 turns is the cut off point. I never let my units for further. Besides, I have noticed, that leaving any unit after that point, the target is readier to flip. Seems like no garrison at all vs. small or one garrison is better.

 

[Drazek]

Originally posted by AlanH
I keep one MP in a captured town just until it is out of resistance, but only because I want to be able to rush stuff in it, including settlers, and you can't rush while in resistance, and you can't end resistance if you have no MPs.

In the end of domination, I tend to disband my military units to get settlers rushed in those resisting towns.

If I have enough of units, I'll proceed until my force is downing. Then I'm likely to disband healing units for settler production. That'll net me a few turns earlier Domination. You can still rush build by disbanding units in resisting towns.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Drazek

In the end of domination, I tend to disband my military units to get settlers rushed in those resisting towns.

How many cavalries (or elephants if you're SirPleb) does it take to make a settler? And you can't construct a question like that in many places, either, mad-bax!

If I have enough of units, I'll proceed until my force is downing. Then I'm likely to disband healing units for settler production. That'll net me a few turns earlier Domination. You can still rush build by disbanding units in resisting towns.

downing ? Sorry, I'm not sure I understand this paragraph ...

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by AlanH
How many cavalries (or elephants if you're SirPleb) does it take to make a settler? And you can't construct a question like that in many places, either, mad-bax!

IIRC, 1 cav = 25 shields, 1 knight/elephant = 20 shields. So, 3 elephants = 4 people (2 settlers). Probably the ones that eat the most

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by Megalou
For your information, I have read previously in the forums that a town cannot flip until 3 turns after capture. Too bad about those cavalries.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. As far as the cav's go, it was Babylon's single greatest military victory

 

[Offa]

Originally posted by Megalou
For your information, I have read previously in the forums that a town cannot flip until 3 turns after capture.

Not true. It appears you are safe on the turn you capture a town, but you are definitely liable to flips after this. It is not safe to wait for units to heal in a captured town, even if it has barracks.

 

[denyd]

I just copied this from another post (credit AlanH)

"Flip Calculation:

The full formula (this is from Sorenson, who is responsible for this programming):

P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D

where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreignors, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control (out of the max of 21, no matter what the cultural boundaries are atm)
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals"

My analysis:

You'll see that the first multiplier is specified as (F+T). F is zero in a city you founded (and didn't join any foreign workers) and you aren't working any of the tiles in the AI's 21 tile radius, then T is zero then we can ignore the rest of the parameters as we have zero flip probability. And the calculation evaluation takes place after the production phase of your turn and before your first unit can move, so you can't lose the city the turn you take it, but any succeeding turn until all of the citizens are converted or the AI is eliminated, the flip is possible. One overriding factor, the capital city cannot flip (FP or other wonders do not have any bearing).

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by denyd
I just copied this from another post (credit AlanH)

Just to get the attributions right: I got it from Anarres' post in his flip calculator thread in Utilities, and he credits Sorenson for the formula.

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by denyd
I just copied this from another post (credit AlanH)

And the calculation evaluation takes place after the production phase of your turn and before your first unit can move, so you can't lose the city the turn you take it, but any succeeding turn until all of the citizens are converted or the AI is eliminated, the flip is possible.

Thanks! I thought I read somewhere that 1 turn was the max. Therefore, the stratagy of getting the # of units = # of resistors for the turn during capture is correct. I just need to remember to keep the wounded units out after that. Though, it is very tempting just to let them rest 1 more turn in a captured city with a barracks as this gets them to 100% health. Therefore, I will now tatoo the names of my 8 lost cavalry in my brain so I won't forget and fall to this temptation.

 

[AlanH]

It doesn't sound to me like you can get any healing without risking them. Putting multiple units in can only reduce resistance, but from a healing point of view you are better off leaving them outside the city. Even if the city has a barracks they won't heal on the capture turn, when they move into it, and if you have to move them out again on the next move after capture you'll lose a healing turn. Usually I'd rather get units healed fast than reduce resistance a bit faster.

 

[Grotius]

I know you lose any units inside a town if it flips. For that reason I don't garrison captured towns heavily -- I often leave it to obsolete units that need disbanding anyway.

But do my occupying units become enemy troops when the town flips? If you leave the town ungarrisoned, that means it has no defenders at all after it flips? Or does the flipped town "automatically" spawn a couple of strong defenders?

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by Grotius
...Or does the flipped town "automatically" spawn a couple of strong defenders?

I believe it does, but not a couple, just 1.

 

[mad-bax]

Agreed. It gets one unit of the type with the strongest defensive value the civ is capable of making.

What I don't know is if the unit will be a vet if the town has a rax.

 

[Grotius]

So does the flipped town also get the use of my former garrison units, or are they completely wiped out, and just replaced by the one strong defensive unit?

If the flipped town just gets one defensive unit, that's not such a big deal to retake. I hadn't realized it was only one.

 

[Offa]

It isn't necessarily only one unit. Bigger cities can get two defenders (?always). If you are really paranoid about flips then cut off all resources from a captured city from the enemy and then the new defenders will just be spearmen (unless they have reached nationalism...).

 

[civ_steve]

I finally qualified for this thread (busy month in RL), so I thought I'd throw out some comments first:

Flips: to answer Grotius' questions, your defenders are eliminated when a city you own flips to another civ. The civ it flips to gets a base defender (if you gift a town to some other civ, it gets a base defender also); I don't recall seeing large cities getting 2 defenders if it flips, but I can't be certain: most large cities I take over get small fast (I usually form enough entertainers that all working citizens are Happy; this causes rapid starvation). On two occasions, I've had a city flip away from me TWICE!!, and on both occasions it got 2 base defenders on the second flip, and I'm pretty sure both cities were size 6 or smaller.

Healing: putting a wounded unit in a city (without a barracks) to heal only benefits you if the unit is a 1 hp Elite unit! A city with a barracks heals a unit faster if it has 3 or 4 hit points against it. So, heal in place unless you're at risk of losing the unit. If the unit has more movement points on the turn it got damaged, it does make sense to move it to a city. Also, I don't think movement by Rails counts against healing, so if you can railroad-move a unit back to a healing city you will also heal that turn (IIRC)

Disbanding: you get 1/4 of the unit's shield cost, rounded down, in reclaimed shields for the city's current production. So a Cav is worth 20 shields and a War Elephant is worth 17 shields. (Or, in other words, a Settler is worth 2 War Elephants, or a Cavalry and Longbowman!) Also, you can combine Disbanding with Rushing (if there is no resistance) to get 1 turn production without the big cost that rushing alone would incur (8x if no shield accumulation vs 4x if there is at least 1 shield in production bin).

SirPleb's game: Wow! So, to recap, research quickly to Republic, then to Chivalry, get Golden Age going, and trample everything in your way! Very nice!!