GOTM 32 Post Mortem

AlanH

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Since GOTM 32 defeated a lot of players (well ... all but two of you, actually!), it was suggested that we should open a specific thread for discussion of the possible alternative strategies that might have resulted in victory. But only after the game was finished.

So here it is. Please feel free to discuss the options you might have taken with 20:20 hindsight. If you have any post-submission replays that you want to discuss, then describe them here. Or just vent about the game and the injustice of it all.

Maybe this will provide a learning experience for us all :)
 
Well, my mistake was in DOWing Alex. In my replay, I DOW'ed Louis instead, and ran pretty roughshod through his territory with 12 prats. After finishing off Louis, I took the Prats and attacked Hatty, who still didn't have feudalism yet, and took her empire. I was running a little negative on the cashflow, but Alex didn't have LBs by the time my Prats made their way back west, so I took Athens. At that point, I was the largest civ, and controlled my own destiny

In Hindsight, Dowing Louis was the right move, because of Orleans (city w/ gold) adn that he's pretty weak on offense.
 
Well, my mistake was in DOWing Alex. In my replay, I DOW'ed Louis instead, and ran pretty roughshod through his territory with 12 prats.

I think to get a chance to win in this game was extremly luck dependent (regarding the start of the game):

- If you get dow'ed to early, what happens to a lot of players, the game was over.
- If you can't get access to the iron you can't build the preats and without them you maybe have a chance to sneak a diplomatic victory but nothing else.
- In my one and only try Alex settled the iron before I know where the iron was and I could bring my settler in position.

So as stated above, you must really have a lot of luck in the beginning (don't get dow'ed and hook up the iron -- both was difficult or often impossible).
 
I do agree about that. I was lucky in my first attempt (and replay) in that I settled my 2nd city where there was iron before I had iron-working. Dumb Luck there.

But JimmyT almost always wins these kinds of games, so i don't like to lay blame on "unluckiness"
 
I was very happy with my 2nd replay result An 1844AD space victory:



This was with the adventurer save, and you could argue with prior knowledge of the map, although I am very careful in replays to make decisions based on what I can see, not on what I know is there from previous plays.

My Core Lesson: Leave Louis Alone
I guess this'll be controversial as a lot of people seemed to be arguing for attacking Louis early on, and I thought that too at first. But I now think that’s a mistake, and that the reason I won my 2nd replay was that I didn’t attack him too early. Why? Because Louis doesn’t have enough land to pose the biggest long-term threat (unless he conquers Egypt first). On deity, the AIs get more powerful a lot quicker than the human can - I think a lesson I learned from my replays was that means the civs to take out first are the ones who have the greatest potential to become massive later on if you don’t deal with them first. On this map, that meant Saladin and Alex (and theoretically, Cyrus, but he was too far away to wage war on). Possibly Izzy, though in my games she seemed to get eaten by Alex and Cyrus anyway.

My First Game
My real entry was with the contender save (it was a close call, I was undecided between contender and adventurer right up to the point where I clicked to download the game), and ended very quickly when Alex declared on me. His chariots vs my warriors. Ouch! I’d been beelining for iron working, but the DoW happened too early for that.

My First Replay
After that I decided to go with adventurer and see how that panned out. I was more careful with my defence, making sure I had a couple of archers, but also did lots of early land exploration. Even though I’d beelined for early iron working, Alex nabbed the iron to the west first, settling on the spot 1N of the iron. I captured the city with a bunch of chariots and then made peace, since with only chariots I didn’t think I could do any more. I then hooked up the iron, beelined for construction/catapults, and prepared for the next war. Saladin settled two cities around the jungle just north of my two, and I think I may have captured those, in order to give my empire a more defensible shape, then I decided on Louis as my next target, because he seemed easy, geographically accessible, and had those three gold in his nearest city. In a couple of wars, I annihilated him, also fending off an attack from Alex (who was, obviously, now a bit pissed with me).

That took me to sometime after 500AD, at which point I took stock, and realized my situation was hopeless. Even though I had all of Louis’ land, both Alex and Saladin were angry with me, and both far too powerful and technologically advanced for me to stand any chance against either of them. The only civ I could take out was my friend Egypt, and that still wouldn’t leave me much better off since Hatshepsut only had good, non-tundra, land for two good cities plus I’d lose my only friend.

The (Hopefully) Winning Strategy
Based on my unfinished second game, I decided on the following guidelines I should follow when playing deity, to be tested with a third attempt at the game.

1. Try to get a settler so you have at least two cities before you declare war. (I really wasn’t comfortable waging war on Alex in order to get my 2nd city in my previous game – meant I had a civ annoyed with me very early on and I had few defences to fall back on). Also, two cities early does make it more likely that when copper/iron pop up, you’ll have access to one of them.
2. Beeline for iron working. Do what you can militarily with IW, while then beelining for construction/catapults. (That’s actually what I’d been doing in all my games, so no new strategy there).
3. Unless there is some strategic reason for doing otherwise, always first attack the civ that has the greatest potential to become massive in the future. Do not wipe this civ out (because while you’re spending turns doing that, on deity, another civ will be becoming massive). Instead, just take enough cities to weaken that civ, get some techs for peace, and then go for whoever is now heading to be the biggest civ. You can finish the first civ off later. A corollary of this is you need to scout out the land very early on, so you know who has the kind of land that’s going to make them a big threat.


The 2nd Replay

So how did I win? Well I played adventurer, settled on the hill 2E of the start position (as I’d done in every game). Built a settler first (not sure how that would’ve worked on contender, where you’re not starting with a worker), and nabbed the spot 1N of the iron. (At that point, I wasn’t going for the iron – Remember, I’m taking care to not use information I don’t know in my decision making; rather it was the case that, luckily, even without the iron being visible, that was clearly the best spot for a 2nd city, having gold and food).

Once I’d hooked up iron, the wars went as follows.

I DoW’ed on Saladin with praetorians. The reason was as in my 2nd game. He had settled the land immediately north of me (one of those cities had founded a religion too). Taking those cities meant I had a square-shaped empire that was much easier to defend than the elongated one I’d have by attacking anyone else. Plus they were both new cities without enough culture yet to require catapults.

After I took those cities, I sued for peace, since I didn’t think I could do much more without catapults, and the sea to the north of me was a good natural defence. (Remember: Scouting. This is only very early AD, and I’ve already explored the entire pangea, so I know where is strategically important).

2. Louis, after worrying me somewhat with lots of units lurking around my territory, declared war on Saladin.

3. Louis, while still at war with Saladin, declares war on me too! The sod! Of course, my rule about attacking the civ with the greatest potential means I don’t want a war with him, so I basically just take a city or two of his and sue for peace as soon as he’ll talk to me.

4. I declare on Alex [looking-like-potentially-most-powerful-civ] with praetorians and cats. I take his two northern cities, thus turning my empire into a rectangle. Then I make peace. He has 4 cities left, which means that Saladin is now the biggest threat. So almost immediately...

5. I declare on Saladin, again taking out 2-3 of his core cities, leaving him fairly weak. Since I’m now getting big and powerful, and ‘we long to rejoin our motherland’ unhappiness is starting to hurt, I’m pushing the wars a bit closer towards annihilation.

6. I declare on Louis. Strictly speaking, Cyrus should be the next target, but he’s too technologically advanced and far away for me to take on, so I’m probably going to have to leave him alone. I pretty much annihilate Louis.

7. I annihilate Alex.

8. I almost annihilate Saladin, except he has a city on an island that I can’t be bothered with. Cyrus later does him in completely for me.

Now it’s taking stock time. Hatty is left, I could take her out but she is pleased/friendly towards me, and is proving a good trading partner. Isabella is tiny but doesn’t actually have any decent land any more, with most of ex-Spain now belonging to Cyrus. Cyrus is way ahead of me in techs and research rate and would probably walk over me in a war, but I have many more cities than him, so I decide to call the warring a day and see if I’m big enough to beat him to space. In fact my research is awful, not helped by that at one point I was spending nearly 50gpt paying for unit maintenance! So I put my cities on max population growth, start building infrastructure, and sure enough, my GNP quickly rockets, rapidly overtaking Cyrus (it’s a lot longer before I catch up with him in actual techs learned, but I do manage to bag the Three Gorges Dam and the Space Elevator. At that point I’m quite confident of victory).

One stroke of luck that helped me: At a time when Cyrus was still miles ahead of me in techs, he offered me a defensive pact. With Hatty pleased with me and Saladin and Izzy basically out of the game, that means I don’t need to worry at all about defence. On deity that’s very nice. It means I don’t need to waste any beakers researching any purely military techs, but can pick those up through trades. I’m sure there was one point where Cyrus had tanks everywhere and my army was basically all my old praetorians and grenadiers! But it worked...
 
This was an extremely easy game... since it was won by double number of people than GOTM¿12? and infinite more people than WOTM¿18? :lol:

One stroke of luck that helped me: At a time when Cyrus was still miles ahead of me in techs, he offered me a defensive pact. With Hatty pleased with me and Saladin and Izzy basically out of the game, that means I don’t need to worry at all about defence.
...

The DP, in itself, doesn't help you at all. You could have been dowed by Cyrus. I learnt that the hard way in the immortal GOTM¿30? where Cathy dowed me despite our DP.

So the DP "only" improves relations with 1 AI and decreases dow probability of all other AIs.
 
The DP, in itself, doesn't help you at all. You could have been dowed by Cyrus. I learnt that the hard way in the immortal GOTM¿30? where Cathy dowed me despite our DP.

So the DP "only" improves relations with 1 AI and decreases dow probability of all other AIs.

Ah, I didn't know that. In that case I guess what helped me was the combination of having the DP, (falsely) believing it meant I was immune from any war, and in fact not being declared on. Since that all meant I didn't build the military units that I perhaps should've done. :crazyeye:
 
I don't have my second replay in front of me, but I won a domination victory around 1600AD following my first post. I remember teching to Cats and Grens and that was about all that was needed.

I found Orleans with its 3 golden hills vital to my research rate. Louis in my game had been nice enough to build the Mids 2 turns before I took Paris.

In my game, it went

DOW and Annihilate Louis with 10 Prats
DOW and Annihilate Hatty with 12 Prats
DOW and Capture Athens, Sparta from Greece with 14 Prats

*Alex and Saladin get Feudalism*

Peace with Alex

DOW Izzy, Raze and Annihilate

Dow Alex with Prats and Cats, Lose most of my Army but destroy him, so Im left with Sally.

Tech to Grens and Cannons, upgrade Prats and Cats, slowly whittle down his 7 city empire.
 
I think to get a chance to win in this game was extremly luck dependent (regarding the start of the game):

- If you get dow'ed to early, what happens to a lot of players, the game was over.
- If you can't get access to the iron you can't build the preats and without them you maybe have a chance to sneak a diplomatic victory but nothing else.
- In my one and only try Alex settled the iron before I know where the iron was and I could bring my settler in position.

So as stated above, you must really have a lot of luck in the beginning (don't get dow'ed and hook up the iron -- both was difficult or often impossible).

My (limited) experience of Deity games has taught me the following criteria:

- No early DoW
- Early access to Copper, Horses or Iron
- Gold/gems in FC
- Suitable geography of map
- Suitable mix of AIs

Suitable geography is a map where you're not surrounded by AI i.e. you have a mass of water nearby that prevents excessive cultural pressure.

A suitable mix of AIs to me means AIs that are not intrinsic friends, not too many financial, and are located such that you don't have to declare on your friends.

I played this map four times. The first three (including the submitted) ended with Alex DoW me. The fourth time, Alex went for Isa instead. I did not know where Iron was located and I beelined alpha. Once I located Iron, Saladin had settled next to it (and another city next to the gems). I managed to capture both cities with chariots and archers, and eventually I took two cities north of Rome. I had my 15 unit stack next to Damascus when I resigned (not motivated to play). I managed to maintain good tech process, but I did not focus on the military techs, which hampered my war progress.

IMO, the unluck factor in this game was the early DoW by Alex. The luck factor was if you managed to build next to the iron yourself and if Louis and Hatty started to fight with each others.
 
3. Unless there is some strategic reason for doing otherwise, always first attack the civ that has the greatest potential to become massive in the future. Do not wipe this civ out (because while you’re spending turns doing that, on deity, another civ will be becoming massive). Instead, just take enough cities to weaken that civ, get some techs for peace, and then go for whoever is now heading to be the biggest civ. You can finish the first civ off later. A corollary of this is you need to scout out the land very early on, so you know who has the kind of land that’s going to make them a big threat.

This is basically what happened in my game. Early war success against Alex (who could have become an aggressive giant) helped my cause. I departed a little bit from this strategy in that I was too timid to attack Saladin until he and Cyrus were the only choices left. No AI civ was wiped out until after 1000AD but there had been a billion wars.

The epic speed helped as there was less cost to march my army from one front of war to another.

The wfyabta limit kicks in pretty quick so getting techs for peace is a great way to go. I researched a few turns into some keys techs just so the AI would be willing to exchange the tech for peace.

I'm still hoping to add a few details of the second part of my game in the final spoiler section. There wasn't any smoke and mirrors... just taking it a turn at a time and keeping the war effort going.
 
Despite of the stupid DoWing very early which doesn't allow you to play at all, the map is very suitable for a win. Ofcource you need to get the iron but after that the game turn into very nice war after war. And imo JC and Praet. are just the thing everybody need to kick dieties. As i said in the final soiler i got Domination around 1500AD on my second try. The stupid thing is that i played as i do it in the furst try but i didn't got DoWed by Sal. I really really will like to play BtS deity because there the deity is even more playable. In contrast warlords diety game is nigthmare because if this feature: "the vasalizing of your enemy leads to sudden war with his new master" - many players suffer from it in Wotm 18.
 
I was lucky enough to get iron (did not even know) by settling on it since Alex settled the previous turn 3 tiles north and 1 east of iron.

I made a big mistake by saying no to Luise when he asked me to join against Hatty. So when I got Alpha, he nor Alex would trade it to me. Self learned Iron and built a bunch of Preats (8?) and attacked Alex's Gem city. Got the city and lost all the preats (several were already wounded killing units in the open tiles). If I did not have 4 back up chariots, that would have been all for nothing. But I gave up since Alex was not feeling very forgiving and started pouring in units to take the city back.

I really need to get my war game straightened. :lol: What major woop ass I got from an axe and several archers. :cry:

BTW. Earlier in the game when I only had 3 or 4 Chariots, Alex was in a war with Cyrus and Izzie(?). When They asked me to join in against alex (same IBT) I said no and next turn they declared peace with Alex.

Were they trying to trick me into war and make peace with Alex? or would they have stayed in war with Alex had I joined them?
 
Yes I've had the same thing. I'm sure there's something broken in the AI logic around asking you to declare war - they really ought to only ask you to do it if they are in the war for the long haul AND you have sufficient military power to be able to help them (or: if they have a vested interest in you being at war, though I'm sure their logic isn't that sophisticated).

(While I'm in rant-about-civ mode ;) I also really wish
(a) there was an option to reply 'sure, I promise I'll declare war on them in X turns [when I've had time to move my units so I don't get slaughtered]',
(b) there was an option to reply 'yes, I'll declare war but ONLY if you give me Y and Z', and
(c) after you've declared war, the AI would notice to what extent you're actually helping in the war and adjust it's diplomatic rating accordingly.
)
 
Hmmm, now I agree, I definatly have broken circuits somewhere, but I often bribe useless civ's on the other side of the world into war with an AI simply so they don't dog pile up against me...
 
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