GOTM 48 Second Spoiler

Randy said:
Not that I'm complaining but how can this be? Shouldn't tR1cKy have a higher Jason score then me?
Yes, it's somewhat strange. Jason scoring is supposed to favour early victories. Probably a glitch in the formula? :confused:
 
I picked what must have been the most wretched victory condition for this map, 100K culture. Call me impious and analphabetic, but I shunned most culture until Persia was vanquished, well into the ADs. Hardly any culture doubling. In [ptw] I can only think of one effective trick to speed up culture and that is palace jumps. I would have liked to jump to the France/India continent but before Navigation the unhappiness elsewhere would have been too high. Didn't feel like destroying my FP town either, although I probably should have.

Battles were pretty much routine work, I never used more than 10 knights for any civ. The main goal was just to reduce the AIs to 1 civ and 1 town so it would go quicker. This was achieved around 1500 AD, although I had practically reached the domination limit earlier. Then it was just a matter of choosing the right islands to keep and the right ones to desert, so that I could stay close to the domination limit but avoid a constant risk of going over it. The last 100 years things were stable. Victory in 17xx.

Final screen:
 

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Histo,

finished the game today: firaxis 6315 and Jason 9721, researched 11 future techs.

Redbad_gotm48_1.JPG


Redbad_gotm48_2.JPG


140 cities and 1566 citizens, 1 tile below domination. (Ragnar's empire in the red circle.)
 
That's really good, RedBad :goodjob:

I think it's hard to get so near 10K points in a milked game.

Interesting to see that we chose the same prison for our playmate AI. True, there were very few spots where a town could not have reached size 3, but I do in fact think that one tile islands are excellent prisons. The AI doesn't start with the rather obvious harbour build, does it? That is a real question; have you investigated such a town and had a look?

I don't understand your choice of prisoner, though, unless your affection for Ragnar runs even deeper than I thought ;). I would even have considered sparing two scientific civs had I not stopped research before the Industrial Age. I can only assume that you wanted to eliminate flip risks, razing all Scandinavian towns, building new ones. And simultaneously you had to keep German and Russian towns because of valuable wonders there.
 
Thanks for compliment, Megalou. :cool:

To be honest, I was quite surprised with the high Jason myself. I'm still not sure what made it become so high. :confused:

Ragnar's prison was build by myself. Later, just before I removed him form his native island, I give it to him. I must confess that it contained a harbour when it was given :blush: . I had a harbour build in it, because I was rushing privateers there, in order to deny Ragnar any growth possibility.
However in the 20th century Ragnar researched republic and revolted. But having 4 or 5 units, he couldn't pay the upkeep and so the harbour was lost. He had only build warriors, spears and galleys.

I choose Ragnar, not because he vaguely resembles me ;) , but because he was the most backward. Most ai's were killed by cavalry, and I only researched steam, electricity and replacebles from the IA. That's because I think beyond these techs there is little of importance for milking.

But when I had hurried the markets, harbours and ducts, there were still a few hundred turns left. So I changed the >400 coincounters to bottlefillers. In the end I still had over 70.000 gold.
 
Randy said:
Shouldn't tR1cKy have a higher Jason score then me?
Nope! Such are the mysteries of the Jason/Firaxis scoring systems! The short answer is that Randy has over 10% higher base score and a 2% slower finish.

Here's the long answer, showing my workings:

We first remove the Firaxis victory date bonus from each score to get base scores:

tR1cKy's base score = 4611 - (2050-850)*3 = 1011
Randy's base score = 4608 - (2050-890)*3 = 1128

So Randy is now 117 base score points ahead, over 10%.

We normalise the base scores to 10K based on the available territory and food:

tR1cKy's normalised base score = 1011*10000/6496 = 1556
Randy's normalised base score = 1128*10000/6496 = 1736

So Randy is now 180 normalised base points ahead.

We calculate a Jason victory date bonus:

Jason bonus = 10K * (1 + ((bestturns/turns) * 0.15)) * 0.55 * (1-sin((turns/180) - 1.5))

Best date for Conquest on this game is 500 AD = 165 turns. So ...

tR1cKy's Jason bonus = 5500*(1+(0.15*165/200))*(1-sin(200/180 - 1.5)) = 8524
Randy's Jason bonus = 5500*(1+(0.15*165/204))*(1-sin(204/180 - 1.5)) = 8378

tR1cKy's bonus is 146 points above Randy's (a little under 2%), which counters, but doesn't wipe out, Randy's base score advantage of 180. [Rounding errors account for the difference of 1 between these numbers and the final published Jason scores].

Randy's 10% higher territory and population, averaged over the 200 turns, was more than sufficient to compensate for his 2% extra turns.
 
For now I'm as clear as mud.
Sorry if I confused you! My first and last sentences say it all, the rest is just detail.

Your territory and population over the game were more than 10% higher than tR1cKy's. That increased your base score - the score before Firaxis added a victory date bonus. You only took 2% more turns than tR1cKy (4 in 200), so your base score boost was bigger than your Jason victory bonus loss. We add Jason bonus to base score to get Jason score.
 
Is there a final spoiler for this game or should I just finish out my diplomatic endeavor here?
 
Class: Open

Goal: Fast domination?

320 AD The Zulu have finished off the Aztecs

410 AD The end of the Persians on the Western island. We have met the
French (and everyone else) and seen their island. We wants it! We
needs it!

430 AD First things first. War on Egypt since they have settled on the
Western island.

500 AD Peace with Egypt, troops move on to the two French cities on
the Western island. Four turns from Chivalry.

820 AD War on India, shipping Knights over in Caravels. India to serve
as bridgehead for invasion of France. Five turns from Military
Tradition.

890 AD India is gone, war on France has begun. Knights on the
frontline.

1000 AD France is gone and we've founded an FP city in the middle of
the former French realm. Still no leader!

1100 AD Scandinavia and England are gone.

1120 AD Golden Age through Newton's University. Persepolis switches to
Iron Works. Game goal now set to Space Race! The Aztec half of Zulu
empire has fallen to the Koreans. Also enter the Industrial Ages. Get
Steam Power self and Medicine through gift and trade.
 
ControlFreak said:
Is there a final spoiler for this game or should I just finish out my diplomatic endeavor here?
I've opened the final spoiler thread.
 
Ancient Age spoiler

Crossing Out the X
I make peace w/the Zulu in 560, getting Ngome, WM+5. I send a stack o' doom outside Persepolis--2 maces, 5 swords (1 leet), and 2 horses. Persepolis is taken w/no losses. Paegam is built next to the ruins of Mpondo. Even tho Persepolis has the GL, I keep researching, since the others are so far behind. The war continues on and by 680 I've kicked X off the continent. I learn mono in 700 and start chiv for the knights, building Kaesong to fill in a gap. Tyre falls in 730. At the eve of my triumph over Persia, Sidon revolts. I take Sardis, and crush the Persians in 790. England has been expanding on the north island and I declare war on them, as well as Egypt. Egypt is close and they have already been weakened by Babylon.

Good Knight
Warwick falls in 840. After learning chiv in 850, I turn off research, using a lone scientist. The attacks on Thebes and Coventry fail. I start upgrading to knights in 880. Oxford falls in 910. A harbor is bought in Taejon so that dyes can help with happiness. After a second attack on Coventry fails, I make peace, getting WM+28 in tribute. Seoul finishes the Gardens in 950. Skirmishes continue, and we take Memphis in 1130. I make peace to consolidate the troops, getting 15+1gpt+WM. 3 turns later I get engineering, start invention, turning research back on. Zimbabwe gets Sun Tzu, so I start on Leonardo. Chonju is built in 1190. I declare on England again in 1240 upon learning invention, getting Coventry the following turn while the GL gives me theo. I wanted to get Liverpool in peace talks, but it doesn't happen. I settle for 26+6gpt, founding Sariwon in 1270. I learn guns in 1285 and see saltpeter on the east isle. My 6 knights in Thebes are ready to roll for when the treaty expires next turn.

The Writing on the Wall
Pyongyang finishes Leonardo in 1290 as war is declared on Egypt. Haeju is also built at this time. Thebes is taken with only one knight lost. Next up is Babylon. Thebes has the Colossus and Oracle, so the next wonder I build will start Korea's GA. Learn chem in 1325, and the GL closes next turn as it picks up ed. Babylon is nice enough to build Sistine for us in 1335. Heliopolis falls with no trouble and I also take Babylon itself, also getting slaves. Korea gets its first leader taking Ashur in 1355, I ship him back home to build a wonder as Taegu is built in 1360. Next turn we learn metal, start astro so I can build Cop's for the GA. Babylon flips, but is quickly retaken. Chinje built in 1370. Ur falls in 1385. Babylon flips again in 1395, but is taken right back. I learn astro next turn and rush Cop's in Pasargadae. Also I sell chem to England for 73+15gpt+WM. The GA starts in 1405 as Nineveh is taken, kicking the Babylonians off their homeland. This results in the ridiculous sight of one of their galleys trapped in Lake Babylon with no way out. My hwachas use it for target practice. I start upgrading to caravels, and put the 'ghost ship' out of its misery next turn.

Golden Age
I learn military in 1420 and start banking. I am able to sustain 4 turn research during the GA--while a monarchy. I also start upgrading knights to cavs and Leonardo makes it much less expensive. Joan demands astro in 1435, but she's bluffing. Ellipi is also taken at this time. Econ is started in 1440, and Akkad is taken 2 turns later. Ellipi flips in 1455, but next turn we take Eridu and Samarra. I learn econ, starting physics as Persepolis switches to Smith. Uruk is taken in 1470 and Ellipi is taken back the following turn, knocking out Hammy. The pathetically weak Vikings are next on the hit list. The 4-turn research continues as I get physics and start grav in 1480. Joanie decides to pick a fight tho, and lands a mace and musketeer outside Haeju. No worries, we take them out and stick to the plan. Nidaros falls in 1500 with intact harbor as I learn grav the following turn and start magnets. The GA comes to an end the following turn as I declare on England, landing 5 cav on the mountain outside Liverpool. Bjoergvin falls at this time. They had a tenacious spearman that drove off 2 of my cav. Liverpool falls in 1510, as does York. I get another leader in 1520, and plan to use him to jump the palace. Oslo falls in 1525 and then there were 6. The following turn I learn magnets and move into the IA.

Industrial Age spoiler
 
Goal: Space

My middle ages are quite boring. Russia declares war on me because I don't give them a tech, but their invasion consists of single galleys dropping off a single unit. :rolleyes:

I stay at war with them and trade a lot to keep my research at 100% and 4-5 turn research. I zip through the middle ages and draw Nationalism :mad:

I read somewhere that reducing the number of civs drops the research cost, so I hatch a plan. That's where things go crazy for the Industrial Age. :cool:
 
k-a-bob said:
I read somewhere that reducing the number of civs drops the research cost, so I hatch a plan. That's where things go crazy for the Industrial Age. :cool:
I made this comment in the spoilers for this game but the source is mydisease's tech cost thread. Note that thread is from 2002 but I think it still applies to Civ III in general.

To sumarize the article:
mydisease said:
Research Cost =
Rcf2.jpg
- Research done so far

I'll also write it out for those who cannot view images.

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

...

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]). There are two ways in which you can increase it to lower tech cost:
1. Increase N by exploring and buying comms to add civs to your diplomacy screen.
2. Decrease CL by killing civs.


Also Grey Fox made a TechCalc Utility but I think it's functions have been absorbed into CivAssist. (This utility is also old and the internal game workings may have changed.)
 
k-a-bob said:
I read somewhere that reducing the number of civs drops the research cost, so I hatch a plan. That's where things go crazy for the Industrial Age.

ControlFreak said:
To sumarize the article:

Originally Posted by mydisease
Research Cost =
Rcf2.jpg
- Research done so far

I'll also write it out for those who cannot view images.

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

...

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]). There are two ways in which you can increase it to lower tech cost:
1. Increase N by exploring and buying comms to add civs to your diplomacy screen.
2. Decrease CL by killing civs.

For quite a while I was under the impression that killing off civs would always decrease tech costs, but there is a caveat to this. A careful evaluation of the formula (which I've subsequently confirmed by killing off civs and looking at tech costs in CAII) indicates that the techs only get cheaper if you aren't the first to complete them. In other words, killing opponents doesn't decrease the cost of studying a tech at monopoly.

Someone please beat me over the head with a blunt object if I am spreading disinformation. ;)
 
Since I've been incommunicado for about six weeks due to lots of travel and work, I haven't had much time for spoilers. Here's a quick summary of my last few months of civving.

GOTM 47 - started on 20K and went leaderless through the dawn of the industrial age. I was actually about 400 culture behind Tricky at that point, so I saw no chance to make up time on the other competitors (especially since Niklas had the fast science bit covered) :goodjob: Abandoned so I could move on to COTM17 and go on a warpath to release some pent-up frustration.

COTM 17 - Predator start (as always) resulted in a bloodbath, which was compounded by the fact that I didn't use any exploits. Won by conquest at a rather late date (with a clean reputation :lol: ), but generated gobs of Great Leaders. Ah yes, there's nothing wrong with my leader fishing - its just bad luck!

GOTM 48 - I'm on another Predator 20K run (what a lousy set-up for this unless you do it in the Persian capital - which I didn't). I'm at the dawn of the Industrial Age again, and have netted a grand total of one Great Leader. Frustrated again :mad: - go purchase CivIV

The last week in small doses - trying out the new eye candy in CivIV, which I'm afraid is going to get old really quick :sad: . Lost a helicopter gunship to a cavalry last night :lol: , so I think its time to go back to GOTM48.

My 20K progress in GOTM48 so far is rather embarassing :blush: , so I'll just report in the final spoiler (assuming real life allows me to finish it in the next 10 days).
 
swordsman_small.gif
[ptw] 1.27f

Got this done with 3 hours to go. Not a very good outing, I'm afraid. Took way too long to capture Persepolis (might have done better to go straight there and bypass Susa; not give him an opportunity to go on a war-production). And I actually left Persia with 5 cities while I PJ'd to Persepolis and developed the empire. I decided to expand to the nearby islands and explore before doing in Xerxes, which didn't happen until about 900 AD.

Persia got one foothold on the island to the East, I got the rest. And the Vikings (who built Great Lighthouse), got 2 cities on the Jungly island to the West, the Zulu got 1, and I got 8-10 or so. I decided this island would be a good launchpad for an invasion of Babylon/Egypt, since I could reach them safely. (And Germany/Russia after that ... well, that was the plan, anyway!)

However, Persepolis was on Iron, which I didn't know (but should have guessed) when I captured it. Warrior upgrades were out. I decided to stay in Despotism and pop-rush lots of Regular Swordsmen; these would be my main force against the Babs, who had no Iron. So I DOW, and got Egypt Allied (they were already at war), and started the build-up. I would also pop-rush Galleys to move the troops. This was around 100 AD.

I eventually landed 12 Swordsmen, and another 8 after that. My Regular Swords did not do as well as I'd like against the Bab Bowmen. I captured Memphis, and razed Babylon and another city, and captured a 3rd (founded new cities in their place), but I stalled at that point, with just enough units to defend my holdings. By this time (500's more or less), I was already in the Middle Ages, got Monotheism for Free and Feudalism for a trade, so my pop-rush Swords were now longer to do pop-rush MedInf.

So I hurriedly researched Chivalry, and pop-rushed Horses. Got up to 27 Horses, and built a Barracks, when I was first to learn Chivalry. Sending Knights over was the final straw to break Babylon's back, sometime in the 800's AD. Egypt had decided to switch sides during this time, so I finished them and Persia off by 980 AD.

My original plan had been Babylon/Egypt, then Russia/Germany. Russia had Iron and Pikes, and I was pretty sure that would be the end of my knights. So I decided instead to base an invasion against the Vikings, and gain control of the Great Lighthouse. I assembled my Knights, some MedInf, and 17 Galleys off the coast of the west Jungly island. 8 Galleys sailed forth; 4 survived, and they ferried 8 knights brought out by 4 Galleys to the Viking's Iron Mountain near Nidaros. No more Pikes from here out! Of the 4 Galleys left in the Ocean, 3 survived, and they carried another 6 Units to the mountain Island, as the first wave disposed of the Viking MedInf sent to ask their business. War was on! Vikings sent out 2 more MedInfs, one directly in our way. It took 2 Knights to do him in, and the remaining 12 hit Nidaros, taking it's defenders down to 2 1hp Pikes. 4 More reinforcements were ferried across, and the 2nd wave captured the city and generated my first GL. The Great Lighthouse was ours (good thing, I think I was down to 5-6 Galleys!).

The remaining Viking/English (you didn't think I forgot their invitation to this party?) invasion was straightforward, with the Vikings eliminated in 1200 and the English in 1250.

Remaining elements of the game: pop-rushed and built MedInf are forming on the island to the East, to form a joint invasion of the Zulus (who had taken the Aztecs out of the Game) with the surviving units from the Viking/English invasion. This 2 pronged attack met some stiff initial resistance (I botched the original invasion; should have razed the captured Aztec city and founded my own safe city), but eventually ground out complete control of the continent in 1395 AD.

Last Chapter: I used my one and only GL to rush Forbidden Palace in the middle of the Babylon/Egypt continent. They went on to build a bunch of Warriors, which were ferried to a Barracks on the Jungly island East of the starting continent, which had Iron. They were upgraded to MedInf, and sent back to form Shock troops against Russia. I had already captured one island SW of Babylon (last Bab city was there), and I rushed over the next island, capturing 4 of Russia's 5 cities there before declaring peace. Then I ferried over tons of MedInf, and using 9 Galleys, landed 36 units in 2 turns to start the real invasion. Meanwhile I had discovered and colonized the island SE of our starting continent, and was attacking another Russian held island from there. Got to 6 tiles from Domination in 1410, and in peace negotiations, Russia gave my the next to last city, founded on some small Jungle island I'd never seen before; 9 more tiles gave me Domination in 1415 AD.

Very slow development; and all these Regular troops don't cut the mustard. Only when I built lots of warriors and upgraded them did the numbers start to get ahead.
 
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