GOTM 51 - pregame discussion

[ainwood]

GOTM 51: Spanish Empire

Civilization: Spain.
Difficulty: Emperor.
Barbarians: Restless.
World Size: Small, 4 billion years.
World Form: Continents, 80% Ocean.
Climate: Cool, Wet.
Rivals: 3.

Starting Screenshot:

Conquest Bonuses:

1. Start with an extra settler.
2. Start with 100 gold.

Predator Equalisers:

1. AI to AI Trade rate increased to deity level.
2. AI Cost factor increased to 'demigod' level (7).

 

[Più Freddo]

Small, 80% water -- those continents are going to be pretty small. Probably no rivers. Instead we have three Gold Hills. Considering the bonus and malus, and the reduced number of rivals, commerce is the thing. Fast to Map Making. But how to work the hills without irrigation? Perhaps one city atop each hill, at least if they are coastal.

Moving the Worker to the Bonus Grassland won't reveal anything, so I'll start by moving the Settler south-east with the eastern Gold Hill as probable goal. Then most likely the Worker east to road the Bonus Grassland and the Game Forest.

The best that could happen to us is to have a neighbouring tribe who builds The Pyramids really fast. If we can capture it before we build The Colossus we have a Golden Age trigger. The Oracle would also work, but is otherwise fairly useless if we plan on fast research. The Great Lighthouse is another interesting Wonder, but doesn't trigger the Golden Age.

First build a Warrior for reconnaissance. Research 100% Writing -- Map Making. Hope to trade for Pottery for a Granary.

 

[Twonky]

3 rivals only on small continents with an extra settler as conquest gift? I bet my worker that we are alone on this island.

Considering the lack of food and the need for commerce, I would really like to settle on the gold hills, too, but only the northern one seems to be coastal. Alternatively we could place the capital SE and found a distance-3 ring with nice coastal towns.

What are the spanish traits again in ptw? Not seafaring, I guess...

 

[Jove]

But I'm still finishing GOTML! And on the 11th? When's the due date?

Hmmmm, small map, 3 rivals. I bet the Lighthouse would enable meeting everyone.
Why not move the settler SE 1 tile? We get more grass in a shield-rich environment, and it allows R=3.5 cities with that plains tile to the north, good enough on a small map.

 

[King Of America]

How about NW to one of the gold hills-we get Fish on expansion; 2nd city 2 SE E -- BG and game forest visible, and 3rd 2 S (ring 3/3.5). If we are on an island, we'll have to research ourselves off and this will max commerce.

PTW traits for Spain: religious and commercial.

 

[PaperBeetle]

PtW doesn't have seafaring; Spain are commercial and religious.
All gold the hills are RCP3 from one another. Settling the western two seems sound, but I worry how much coast would come in the radius of the eastern hill. Mind you, the water we see to the east could be a lake. That would make the game irrigable (edit: game + forest already gets the same food as game + irrigated plain, and more shields).
Being a pessimistic sort, I'm inclined to view the Lighthouse differently. With 80% water, I would expect the oceans to be too wide to cross safely, even with Lighthouse. Also, only 3 rivals on emperor suggests to me that we are meant to be isolated, and are challenged with keeping up with the AI. Mm, sounds like I'm making life hard for myself...

 

[Più Freddo]

How about NW to one of the gold hills-we get Fish on expansion; 2nd city 2 SE E -- BG and game forest visible, and 3rd 2 S (ring 3/3.5).

With the eastern gold hill as capital you get at least these advantages:

- One more city in the north in ring 3
- A faster start thanks to FurGame/Forest
- Possibly yet another ring 3 city in the south or south-east
- Possibility to still settle SE after having revealed a lot looking out from the hill
- If there's water around, the FurGame/Forest can be chopped and irrigated for 3fpt in despotism, 4 fpt in republic

Disadvantages:

- Longer to walk
- Less commerce
- Unknown whether coast access

If there is a coast access, the eastern gold hill could be good for 20k in a second city given the advantages above.

 

[tR1cKy]

Wait... 3 rivals on a small map? Shouldn't it be a tiny one? Typo or uncrowded map?

 

[ignas]

i will be definitely playing this one..i will go for a 100K culture game this time, probably settling on the eastern gold hill and with ring at distance 3

 

[Paul#42]

i will be definitely playing this one..i will go for a 100K culture game this time, probably settling on the eastern gold hill and with ring at distance 3

100k on small archipel? Are you sure that can be achieved before 2050?!?

You might go for the award uncontested

 

[ignas]

100k on small archipel? Are you sure that can be achieved before 2050?!?

You might go for the award uncontested

Yes, i think it is achievable, it will be a challenge for me.
Plan is to approach domination limit, research ASAP to replaceable parts, draft many infantries and disban them for culture. That's so simple . 100K culture challenge this GOTM, anyone?

 

[Niklas]

Plan is to approach domination limit, research ASAP to replaceable parts, draft many infantries and disban them for culture. That's so simple

You should seriously consider Communism, it's simply so powerful for 100k . Check out my spoilers for GOTM44 Babylon if you don't believe me...

 

[ignas]

You should seriously consider Communism, it's simply so powerful for 100k . Check out my spoilers for GOTM44 Babylon if you don't believe me...

Thanks for advice. Yes, i know, it's really very powerful

 

[ionimplant]

3 rivals? is this a gotm record? with a continent map, does this imply a 2-2 distribution of civilizations?

 

[denyd]

I rarely play on small worlds so a couple of questions for the experts.

Does research costs change?

Do build costs change?

Unlike C3C, a 100K Culture win still takes 100K, right?

With an 80% water world, continents & only 3 AI, it seems like there will about the normal number of turns for expansion, since both the number of competitors for the land and the amount of land have been reduced. Does that sound right?

Opening game thoughts, Spain is Commercial & Religious which means Ceremonial Burial & Alphabet are the starting techs. Commercial means more commerce from larger cities & less corruption, while Religious means cheaper temples & cathedrals and no anarchy on government changes. The Conquistador (3-2-2 @ 70 shields) replaces the Explorer and treats all terrain as roads, so essentially moves 6 tiles per turn. However it normally shows up so late, it's only effective when used in combat against obsolete units or as a pillager.

This game has a quality similar to COTM 20 where finding fresh water may be the key to success. I'm thinking about Settler SE and founding Madrid while the worker goes to the BG to mine & road. First build will be a scouting warrior and research will be at maximum for Writing then Literature for a Great Library build, then turn off the science and expand to fill up the available continent. My only dilemma is victory condition. With the right mix of opponents, I think I might try for a 20K win.

 

[ignas]

I rarely play on small worlds so a couple of questions for the experts.

Does research costs change?

Do build costs change?

Unlike C3C, a 100K Culture win still takes 100K, right?

With an 80% water world, continents & only 3 AI, it seems like there will about the normal number of turns for expansion, since both the number of competitors for the land and the amount of land have been reduced. Does that sound right?

Opening game thoughts, Spain is Commercial & Religious which means Ceremonial Burial & Alphabet are the starting techs. Commercial means more commerce from larger cities & less corruption, while Religious means cheaper temples & cathedrals and no anarchy on government changes. The Conquistador (3-2-2 @ 70 shields) replaces the Explorer and treats all terrain as roads, so essentially moves 6 tiles per turn. However it normally shows up so late, it's only effective when used in combat against obsolete units or as a pillager.

This game has a quality similar to COTM 20 where finding fresh water may be the key to success. I'm thinking about Settler SE and founding Madrid while the worker goes to the BG to mine & road. First build will be a scouting warrior and research will be at maximum for Writing then Literature for a Great Library build, then turn off the science and expand to fill up the available continent. My only dilemma is victory condition. With the right mix of opponents, I think I might try for a 20K win.

Research costs are lower than say standard emperor, build costs do not change, but how about culture?does 100K culture victory on small map take 100K?

 

[Tone]

Research costs are lower than say standard emperor, build costs do not change, but how about culture?does 100K culture victory on small map take 100K?

In C3C it is only 80K for small maps but it remains at 100K for PtW and vanilla for all map sizes.

IIRC the OCN for small maps is lower than for standard sized ones. I believe this means that although research costs are less, corruption will be a more significant factor at a much earlier time for expanding empires and so it is likely that a greater proportion of income will be lost. This will of course have an adverse effect on research capacity. A similar argument can be applied to production with regards to increased waste when considering the empire as a whole. I guess that means that having an effective core (and getting a second core asap) becomes even more important but please correct me if that analysis is incorrect.

 

[archphoenix]

3 rivals only on small continents with an extra settler as conquest gift? I bet
my worker that we are alone on this island.
...

Being a pessimistic sort, I'm inclined to view the Lighthouse differently.
With 80% water, I would expect the oceans to be too wide to cross safely, even with Lighthouse.
...

Guess boss' intention is helpful, I think.
I bet too, we are on an island, without river,and 3 AI far away to meet.

how to settle the first city is hard.
choose conquest class will helpful for me.

 

[ignas]

In C3C it is only 80K for small maps but it remains at 100K for PtW and vanilla for all map sizes.

IIRC the OCN for small maps is lower than for standard sized ones. I believe this means that although research costs are less, corruption will be a more significant factor at a much earlier time for expanding empires and so it is likely that a greater proportion of income will be lost. This will of course have an adverse effect on research capacity. A similar argument can be applied to production with regards to increased waste when considering the empire as a whole. I guess that means that having an effective core (and getting a second core asap) becomes even more important but please correct me if that analysis is incorrect.

So it will be quite hard to achieve fast 100K culture date

 

[Twonky]

The OCN for a small map on emperor with the commercial trait is 17 (22 with FP). This is quite similar to a standard map on emperor without the commercial trait (OCN = 16, 22 with FP). So I would say we don´t have to sweat the corruption effects.