GOTM 62 Final Spoiler
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GOTM 62 Final Spoiler
- Thread starter Cactus Pete
- Start date
Reading Requirements
Stop! If you are participating in GOTM 62, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless
Feedback on the game concept and map are welcome. Hope you enjoyed your game.
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- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,162
1785 Dom win 89,000 something points
Alright, looks like I'm the first one to post up. First, I'd like to tip my hat to Cactus for a very fun game. Probably the fastest GOTM I've played since I've been playing them for well over a year now. I enjoyed the map, setup and theme...thanks (it was nice to find the feminine softer side I've sought so hard for
) I would say the game played a bit easier than normal IMM, especially given the fact that although I'm basically an IMM player on BTS, I struggle more on vanilla and Warlords simply as never played them much originally
(in spoilers for length)
Alright, looks like I'm the first one to post up. First, I'd like to tip my hat to Cactus for a very fun game. Probably the fastest GOTM I've played since I've been playing them for well over a year now. I enjoyed the map, setup and theme...thanks (it was nice to find the feminine softer side I've sought so hard for
) I would say the game played a bit easier than normal IMM, especially given the fact that although I'm basically an IMM player on BTS, I struggle more on vanilla and Warlords simply as never played them much originally(in spoilers for length)
Spoiler :
Holy Cheese
Chieftain
Plan A was simple - go for a culture victory.
Plan A bit the dust early on after I settled in place but then missed the first 2 religions. I still kept my hopes up though, and settled everything to the west and north of Moscow. Toku kindly spread Confucianism to me early on, which I adopted and got him to Friendly. Things soon went to pot though shortly after settling Yaroslavl on his borders, hoping to be able to push him back a bit with my culture. No such luck - within a short time he had flipped it!
Plan B - get teching and go for space. I managed to get a couple of early tech trades in with Toku, but he very quickly pulled well ahead of me in the tech race and soon I had nothing to offer him for the rest of the game. It soon became obvious that space was also not an option.
Plan C was cunning - build a fleet of galleons, sail west and attack Elizabeth and the others from there. By this time I had beelined Military tradition and started to build up a force of cossacks and cats. Realising I could use open borders with Toku to send a force eastwards on attack, I did this as well. I quickly took 2 cities from Izzy but as soon as they came out of revolt they rebelled and joined Toku's ever growing empire.
From here on it was a case of conquering from the east coast of the continent. First Liz was eliminated, but it all took rather long. Next I went after Izzy, who by this time had got gunpowder and made life a bit more difficult. This left only Hattie, who also put up a fight and eventually got grenadiers, making things even more precarious.
Meanwhile, this was of course costing me a fortune. I had already shut down the science slider after rifles but was just about breaking even and so could not up the culture slider by much. The rest of the game was a mix of building wealth, markets, grocers and banks to be able to inch up the culture slider. In the mid 1970'2 Hattie was finally gone. By the end of the century I had got around 65% of the needed land, but was unable to get over this and eventually ended up having to settle for a time victory.
Biggest mistake I made I think was bypassing CoL until very very late, which of course meant no courthoses and Forbidden Palace until much too late. had I built these earlier I would have been able to finance the culture push and probably would have got a domination victory. Second biggest mistake was not building settlers to go with my troops, since I suffered the same fate as Lymond and watched helplessly as Toku filled in the gaps after I took some cities.
Still, I'm happy to take a victory after a long string of defeats in XotM games, and since I still struggle at Noble level, this will do me fine
Was a very interesting and fun game, many thanks!
Jack
Plan A bit the dust early on after I settled in place but then missed the first 2 religions. I still kept my hopes up though, and settled everything to the west and north of Moscow. Toku kindly spread Confucianism to me early on, which I adopted and got him to Friendly. Things soon went to pot though shortly after settling Yaroslavl on his borders, hoping to be able to push him back a bit with my culture. No such luck - within a short time he had flipped it!
Plan B - get teching and go for space. I managed to get a couple of early tech trades in with Toku, but he very quickly pulled well ahead of me in the tech race and soon I had nothing to offer him for the rest of the game. It soon became obvious that space was also not an option.
Plan C was cunning - build a fleet of galleons, sail west and attack Elizabeth and the others from there. By this time I had beelined Military tradition and started to build up a force of cossacks and cats. Realising I could use open borders with Toku to send a force eastwards on attack, I did this as well. I quickly took 2 cities from Izzy but as soon as they came out of revolt they rebelled and joined Toku's ever growing empire.
From here on it was a case of conquering from the east coast of the continent. First Liz was eliminated, but it all took rather long. Next I went after Izzy, who by this time had got gunpowder and made life a bit more difficult. This left only Hattie, who also put up a fight and eventually got grenadiers, making things even more precarious.
Meanwhile, this was of course costing me a fortune. I had already shut down the science slider after rifles but was just about breaking even and so could not up the culture slider by much. The rest of the game was a mix of building wealth, markets, grocers and banks to be able to inch up the culture slider. In the mid 1970'2 Hattie was finally gone. By the end of the century I had got around 65% of the needed land, but was unable to get over this and eventually ended up having to settle for a time victory.
Biggest mistake I made I think was bypassing CoL until very very late, which of course meant no courthoses and Forbidden Palace until much too late. had I built these earlier I would have been able to finance the culture push and probably would have got a domination victory. Second biggest mistake was not building settlers to go with my troops, since I suffered the same fate as Lymond and watched helplessly as Toku filled in the gaps after I took some cities.
Still, I'm happy to take a victory after a long string of defeats in XotM games, and since I still struggle at Noble level, this will do me fine
Was a very interesting and fun game, many thanks!
Jack
Continuing from the first spoiler.. 1ad
I was by now getting on famously with Toku, but Hatty was a major concern as she also hung out at the same church as us. Research was directed towards alpha to trade what we could with Toku. My, he certainly likes building wonders, and he's friendly! Is this really the foul prince with the rotten reputation?
Anyway, it was about at this point that I decided to go for domination.
Recruited about 10 axes in anticipation of Machinery, and churned out Cats & Maces for the whole game after that. Hatty & Victoria were both beating up Izzy, and Victoria took half of her cities while Hatty was being conquered by me.
Decided to go for Vicky next as I was having problems with Toku flipping and settling cities, and I thought the extra distance would work in my favour.
Slowly teched a whole bunch of things, as there was little else to do with the money. But I never got near Cossacks.
I had a very sloppy middle & end-game, and hurt my score badly by over-whipping settlers at the end (I had 11 when I tripped domination).
Very nice game! Great concept and it was lots of fun, though it certainly didn't feel like immortal. Having Toku's religion spread was a massive factor on the game, so I'm thankfull that I got lucky.
I was by now getting on famously with Toku, but Hatty was a major concern as she also hung out at the same church as us. Research was directed towards alpha to trade what we could with Toku. My, he certainly likes building wonders, and he's friendly! Is this really the foul prince with the rotten reputation?
Anyway, it was about at this point that I decided to go for domination.
Recruited about 10 axes in anticipation of Machinery, and churned out Cats & Maces for the whole game after that. Hatty & Victoria were both beating up Izzy, and Victoria took half of her cities while Hatty was being conquered by me.
Decided to go for Vicky next as I was having problems with Toku flipping and settling cities, and I thought the extra distance would work in my favour.
Slowly teched a whole bunch of things, as there was little else to do with the money. But I never got near Cossacks.
I had a very sloppy middle & end-game, and hurt my score badly by over-whipping settlers at the end (I had 11 when I tripped domination).
Very nice game! Great concept and it was lots of fun, though it certainly didn't feel like immortal. Having Toku's religion spread was a massive factor on the game, so I'm thankfull that I got lucky.
magicgunnar
Chieftain
Toku beat me to Oracle by 3 turns, and to confucianism by several turns.
Each of the princesses founded one religion each, before Toku founded Taoism and Confucianism.
Taoism spread to me, and I made an open border agreement with Toku.
But too early. Toku sent settlers my way, I hadn't settled all of my peninsula, rushed a settler, and beat him to the spot.
Before I could take advantage of the open border, he switched religion, and our deal was off.
I noticed that conquest victory was not disabled, so teoretically it could be possible to switch all of Tokus cities. He has three. Teoretically possible, but probably not possible given the time limit.
I didn't care to get an open border with toku anymore, teched and invaded over the ocean with infantry. England had grenadiers, egypt only longbowmen and spain even riflemen, but by the time I had taken England, I had tanks, and rolled over everything.
Spain actually got an open border with Toku at this point, but nothing more than an explorer showed up.
Got a domination victory in 1950-something.
Actually a very fun game.
Each of the princesses founded one religion each, before Toku founded Taoism and Confucianism.
Taoism spread to me, and I made an open border agreement with Toku.
But too early. Toku sent settlers my way, I hadn't settled all of my peninsula, rushed a settler, and beat him to the spot.
Before I could take advantage of the open border, he switched religion, and our deal was off.
I noticed that conquest victory was not disabled, so teoretically it could be possible to switch all of Tokus cities. He has three. Teoretically possible, but probably not possible given the time limit.
I didn't care to get an open border with toku anymore, teched and invaded over the ocean with infantry. England had grenadiers, egypt only longbowmen and spain even riflemen, but by the time I had taken England, I had tanks, and rolled over everything.
Spain actually got an open border with Toku at this point, but nothing more than an explorer showed up.
Got a domination victory in 1950-something.
Actually a very fun game.
A poor attempt for me, with inconsistent goals and many missed opportunities. I wasted too much time in the early game trying to capture a barb city (and losing my first attacking stack). That slowed down everything else.
I thought about trying for a cultural victory, but abandoned that idea when I decided that Elizabeth would be across the ocean before I had time for my cities to reach legendary status. For a while, I was wondering if the mapmaker had added another mystery suitor to the game--Christianity spread to one of my cities, but that wasn't Tokugawa's religion. Could there be another prince? No, it just turned out to be one of his secondary religions.
From gifting resources, I finally got an open border agreement in 1000 AD. I still wasn't ready to try an offensive. In fact, I didn't launch one until England had destroyed Spain in 1770; I took Thebes in 1775 to complete the destruction of Egypt. After that, I took Elephantine in 1801 (which I gifted to Tokugawa) and Madrid in 1804...and that was as far as my offensive could go.
My last hope was that Tokugawa could be persuaded to join a permanent alliance (what good is courting the prince if he won't exchange vows?) but that didn't appear as an option when I researched Communism in 1898. Besides defending Madrid and Thebes, I maintained a frigate blockade of Elizabeth's coastline for a while, until she got her own frigates in 1920. I was able to sink her first two invasion fleets, but without an onshore source of oil to fuel destroyers, it was clear that I couldn't continue to match her production. Tokugawa was busy building a spaceship, but that still had a long way to go.
I retired in 1934, with a score of 4794 points.
I thought about trying for a cultural victory, but abandoned that idea when I decided that Elizabeth would be across the ocean before I had time for my cities to reach legendary status. For a while, I was wondering if the mapmaker had added another mystery suitor to the game--Christianity spread to one of my cities, but that wasn't Tokugawa's religion. Could there be another prince? No, it just turned out to be one of his secondary religions.
From gifting resources, I finally got an open border agreement in 1000 AD. I still wasn't ready to try an offensive. In fact, I didn't launch one until England had destroyed Spain in 1770; I took Thebes in 1775 to complete the destruction of Egypt. After that, I took Elephantine in 1801 (which I gifted to Tokugawa) and Madrid in 1804...and that was as far as my offensive could go.
My last hope was that Tokugawa could be persuaded to join a permanent alliance (what good is courting the prince if he won't exchange vows?) but that didn't appear as an option when I researched Communism in 1898. Besides defending Madrid and Thebes, I maintained a frigate blockade of Elizabeth's coastline for a while, until she got her own frigates in 1920. I was able to sink her first two invasion fleets, but without an onshore source of oil to fuel destroyers, it was clear that I couldn't continue to match her production. Tokugawa was busy building a spaceship, but that still had a long way to go.
I retired in 1934, with a score of 4794 points.
magicgunnar
Chieftain
What about the source of uranium? Couldn't that do the trick?
there was uranium ?!?!?!
Perhaps there was, but I hadn't researched the technology to see it. I'd just completed assembly line, so that I could build infantry to better meet the redcoats. Really, I could have survived longer. I had been anticipating gifting Thebes and Madrid to Tokugawa, if the pressure on those cities became too extreme, but I didn't see any way to do better than hanging on, by that point.
Jouzou
Warlord
Wow, what a game. I got my cossacks up and running and was actually pretty much on par with others in military tech at that point. When I moved my attack forces to the east, I noticed that Elizabeth had already conquered about half of Spain. I razed the remaining cities and Isabella was soon finished. After that it was Hatty's turn. It turned out that Elizabeth had conquered most of her empire, too.
Then I made a terrble, terrible mistake; I thought that continuing the war against Elizabeth would be too weary and called it a day. I (naively) thought that I could let the war weariness wear off, catch up in tech and later hammer her skull in. Unfortunately, she knows how to put unclaimed territory in really good use. She came to my coast with a modern navy and helicopters. Moscow fell in 2028 AD.
Damn Toku expanded his cultural border over the only coal resource and flipped my city in the NE (and thus, got the uranium as well).
Anyway, it was very nice to get some variety to this game. Like lymond already said,
to CactusPete. Can't wait 'till next month's GOTM!
Then I made a terrble, terrible mistake; I thought that continuing the war against Elizabeth would be too weary and called it a day. I (naively) thought that I could let the war weariness wear off, catch up in tech and later hammer her skull in. Unfortunately, she knows how to put unclaimed territory in really good use. She came to my coast with a modern navy and helicopters. Moscow fell in 2028 AD.
Damn Toku expanded his cultural border over the only coal resource and flipped my city in the NE (and thus, got the uranium as well).
Anyway, it was very nice to get some variety to this game. Like lymond already said,
to CactusPete. Can't wait 'till next month's GOTM!
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
1790 Domination, 80241 score
Nothing very special to report, as there are (and will be many more) better games by others. As mentioned in my 1 AD spoiler, I'd missed the Oracle/CS slingshot by a few turns and was still waiting for open borders with Toku. Didn't get 'em until 740 AD after Toku's Christianity spread to me. The city gifting trick, particularly if you could gift him a city that would then revert culturally back to you, would be sweet but I didn't think of it (too impatient to play the game and missed the pre-play suggestions
). Otherwise you're at the mercy of random religion spread, unless/until you can get ahead and gift a tech or two. I didn't play this part well at all, but better players can handle it easily.
Once I got OB, though, things improved a lot. I Liberalized Nationalism and burned a Great Eng on the Taj and mostly used cossacks, first finishing off Hatty, and then fighting Liz and Izzy more or less at the same time. None of the other girls ever got OB with Toku and they were often warring with each other. Old habits die hard and I lugged along my cannon at the start of the wars, but quickly saw that once you knock out the top one or two defenders in a city using cossacks the rest fall pretty easily. Early on, though, when I didn't have that many units, cannon were good to have against hill cities. But yes, I now see why people like using horsies so much. Neilmeister, you finished too early to enjoy the fun!
I lost one captured city to Toku via culture flip and he snuck in a settler elsewhere when I wasn't looking but otherwise I managed to frustrate his expansion desires. I didn't tech Astro until the last turn to preserve the Colossus benefit--that certainly was a big help on this map. Got Biology after killing off the last of the princessly pretenders and waiting for cities to come out of revolt to put me over the Dom limit, but it came too late to pump up my population/score very much.
The combination of always war, always peace, and unique geography made for a very entertaining game. And since the bad girls were distracted from teching by their cat fighting, rolling over them militarily was much less of a chore than it usually is on Immortal. Nice writeup, Lymond! I look foward to reading more.
Nothing very special to report, as there are (and will be many more) better games by others. As mentioned in my 1 AD spoiler, I'd missed the Oracle/CS slingshot by a few turns and was still waiting for open borders with Toku. Didn't get 'em until 740 AD after Toku's Christianity spread to me. The city gifting trick, particularly if you could gift him a city that would then revert culturally back to you, would be sweet but I didn't think of it (too impatient to play the game and missed the pre-play suggestions
). Otherwise you're at the mercy of random religion spread, unless/until you can get ahead and gift a tech or two. I didn't play this part well at all, but better players can handle it easily. Once I got OB, though, things improved a lot. I Liberalized Nationalism and burned a Great Eng on the Taj and mostly used cossacks, first finishing off Hatty, and then fighting Liz and Izzy more or less at the same time. None of the other girls ever got OB with Toku and they were often warring with each other. Old habits die hard and I lugged along my cannon at the start of the wars, but quickly saw that once you knock out the top one or two defenders in a city using cossacks the rest fall pretty easily. Early on, though, when I didn't have that many units, cannon were good to have against hill cities. But yes, I now see why people like using horsies so much.
Neilmeister, you finished too early to enjoy the fun! I lost one captured city to Toku via culture flip and he snuck in a settler elsewhere when I wasn't looking but otherwise I managed to frustrate his expansion desires. I didn't tech Astro until the last turn to preserve the Colossus benefit--that certainly was a big help on this map. Got Biology after killing off the last of the princessly pretenders and waiting for cities to come out of revolt to put me over the Dom limit, but it came too late to pump up my population/score very much.
The combination of always war, always peace, and unique geography made for a very entertaining game. And since the bad girls were distracted from teching by their cat fighting, rolling over them militarily was much less of a chore than it usually is on Immortal. Nice writeup, Lymond! I look foward to reading more.
Very fun concept, made me come out of retirement. The map was surprisingly small for a standard map, wasn't it?
Now, I am not in shape
jesusin, contender. Goal fastest cultural victory. Result: 1685AD cultural victory.
REX:
Settled in place, Worker and Agriculture first. My scout is eaten by a bear so that my first settler
- doesn't know the whole land
- has best spots taken by 2 barb cities
So I was forced to research BW, which I wasn't planning on doing and build a dozen of units to take one of the cities and raze the other. So annoying. With such a bad start, I was bound to get a late finish date.
Diplomacy:
Worker farmed corn first. Then he roaded it. Yes, it's a waste of 2 early worker turns, but that allowed me to gift corn to Toku immediately.
2 units were stationed between the mountains, to close any possible route to my cities. That should leave the girls fighting among themselves.
Toku researched Alpha 1 turn ahead of me, which was really unfortunate. He would only trade his techs if every other girl knew them.
Only for a short time Toku was Pleased with one of them, because of sharing religions. I paid for broking deals and later she changed religions.
Development:
1000BC: 3 cities and CS sling and Library
Toku beats me to Music, but I get Philo first, my second founded religion.
1AD stats: 6cities, 26pop, 1settler, 5worker, 6(Axe). 2strat, 3Lux, 6health. 80fpt, 36hpt, 66bpt, 100sust , 67cpt, 20GPPpt. 300g, 0c. 2WW, 1NW,1GP. 27Techs: CS, Lite,Drama, Philo, BW. 2reli. 5 hours. 0 civs killed. 5/6cottages used.
175AD 8 cities
225AD at last Toku's religion spreads, convert immediately.
500AD 9 cities, 2GA, 20% culture because of unhappiness, I couldn't trade for Monarchy not Calendar. I haven't spread my religions yet.
700AD, +12Friendly, trades all but Music! I give him Educ but not Philo
760AD: Revolt to OR+HR
920AD: Nationalism from Liberalism, but no Music, no revolt to FS…
1000AD 2Cathedrals built, stay in Bureaucracy, 0%. Toku goes no reli….
1130AD, 5Cath, Revolt to FS,CS,Paci. 100% with 2100g. TajMaj. 1230AD Hermit.
My capital is very slow with its cathedrals, due to my late religion spreading.
Spend 8 turns at 100% gold, I can't keep 100% culture without more resource trading.
1390AD 8Cath and Sistines in aux city. I wasn't hoping to get it. Now Hermitage is in the wrong city and it has delayed cathedrals building in the capital too.
Use starvation shrewdly to get 1 additional GP. Mess up with starvation, losing a turn on GP generation... which means my last GA saved exactly zero turns.
Beat my own record: a GOTM in only 14 hours.
Key data:
9 cities (last ones only resource was horses).
Legendaries: capital in place, cottages; GPFarm with 2fish, shale and FP, farms; Other city with wines, fish and mines, a few WW, a couple of cottages.
3 religions
9cathedrals
End of research and most cathedrals built: 1130AD
1500cpt in the end, all 3 cities together
17GP, 0 free, 1GS and 16 bombed GA. Bombs: 5-3-7.
Gratitude:
Thanks to all who thought about a cultural victory but changed their mind. I still have a chance! lol
Now, I am not in shape
jesusin, contender. Goal fastest cultural victory. Result: 1685AD cultural victory.
REX:
Settled in place, Worker and Agriculture first. My scout is eaten by a bear so that my first settler
- doesn't know the whole land
- has best spots taken by 2 barb cities
So I was forced to research BW, which I wasn't planning on doing and build a dozen of units to take one of the cities and raze the other. So annoying. With such a bad start, I was bound to get a late finish date.
Diplomacy:
Worker farmed corn first. Then he roaded it. Yes, it's a waste of 2 early worker turns, but that allowed me to gift corn to Toku immediately.
2 units were stationed between the mountains, to close any possible route to my cities. That should leave the girls fighting among themselves.
Toku researched Alpha 1 turn ahead of me, which was really unfortunate. He would only trade his techs if every other girl knew them.
Only for a short time Toku was Pleased with one of them, because of sharing religions. I paid for broking deals and later she changed religions.
Development:
1000BC: 3 cities
and CS sling and LibraryToku beats me to Music, but I get Philo first, my second founded religion.
1AD stats: 6cities, 26pop, 1settler, 5worker, 6(Axe). 2strat, 3Lux, 6health. 80fpt, 36hpt, 66bpt, 100sust , 67cpt, 20GPPpt. 300g, 0c. 2WW, 1NW,1GP. 27Techs: CS, Lite,Drama, Philo, BW. 2reli. 5 hours. 0 civs killed. 5/6cottages used.
175AD 8 cities
225AD at last Toku's religion spreads, convert immediately.
500AD 9 cities, 2GA, 20% culture because of unhappiness, I couldn't trade for Monarchy not Calendar. I haven't spread my religions yet.
700AD, +12Friendly, trades all but Music! I give him Educ but not Philo
760AD: Revolt to OR+HR
920AD: Nationalism from Liberalism, but no Music, no revolt to FS…
1000AD 2Cathedrals built, stay in Bureaucracy, 0%. Toku goes no reli….
1130AD, 5Cath, Revolt to FS,CS,Paci. 100% with 2100g. TajMaj. 1230AD Hermit.
My capital is very slow with its cathedrals, due to my late religion spreading.
Spend 8 turns at 100% gold, I can't keep 100% culture without more resource trading.
1390AD 8Cath and Sistines in aux city. I wasn't hoping to get it. Now Hermitage is in the wrong city and it has delayed cathedrals building in the capital too.
Use starvation shrewdly to get 1 additional GP. Mess up with starvation, losing a turn on GP generation... which means my last GA saved exactly zero turns.
Beat my own record: a GOTM in only 14 hours.
Key data:
9 cities (last ones only resource was horses).
Legendaries: capital in place, cottages; GPFarm with 2fish, shale and FP, farms; Other city with wines, fish and mines, a few WW, a couple of cottages.
3 religions
9cathedrals
End of research and most cathedrals built: 1130AD
1500cpt in the end, all 3 cities together
17GP, 0 free, 1GS and 16 bombed GA. Bombs: 5-3-7.
Gratitude:
Thanks to all who thought about a cultural victory but changed their mind. I still have a chance! lol
Somewhat disappointing, but then there was a lot of warring going on.
I initially settled on the desert 1E of the starting spot, and boy was I glad I did that, when the city borders revealed that settling there had exactly blocked our dear Prince from being able to get through the mountain pass into 'my' land without open borders. I wonder if Cactus Pete put the desert tile there deliberately to encourage people to move East? I had considered exploring SW and I feel sorry for anyone who did and as a result had their land open to invasion from the Land of the Rising Sun.
Anyway, I basically settled all the land available, only opening borders to Toku when there was nothing for him to settle. Since I'd been able to gift him a couple of techs and shared a religion, open borders was easy. Once I had open borders, I started sending troops across and over the course of a few milennia, totally wiped out all my rivals for the prince's affections. They were ugly anyway (well, actually so was the prince, to be truthful, but hey a girl can't be choosy in a world that contains but one male leader). I think the Prince saw early on the way things were working out - he spent most of the mid and late game friendly to me (excellent, since it meant he was willing to trade me all his monopoly techs, and with his rivals - ummm - shall we say - a little bogged down in minor wars, almost all his techs were monopoly techs).
The four-way catfight between us princesses was quite novel. I'd have troops around, surrounded by English, Spanish and Egyptian forces, never quite sure who was going to attack who.
I had two big problems during the game:
Firstly, war weariness. I think that was the main reason for my late victory. At one point, it was hitting +8 in quite a few cities, and of course with the always-war-or-peace setting there was no way to escape it with a peace treaty. When it was at its worst, Hatty was long since entombed, and I hadn't really attacked Spain yet, so I was sure it was mostly England-specific. All I could do was try to restrict it by wiping out England as quickly as possible and avoiding attacking Spain to avoid getting additional war weariness. Unfortunately Isabella didn't really get the idea and kept attacking me when it was blindingly obvious that England was the real enemy.
Secondly, Toku, unable to expand anywhere, resorted to building wonders instead. As a result his culture started playing havoc with my borders. My 3rd city in the game was settled to the NE of Moscow to pick up the deer. That revolted to the Japanese mid game.
First time I can ever remember losing a city to a culture flip in a GOTM. Unbelievably, for a long time it looked like Moscow could go the same way (can a capital culture-flip?) The Prince's culture eventually ate almost half of Moscow's BFC, and even a culture bomb from an artist gave only a temporary respite.
On the bright side, after all the wars had finished, I had to gift an ex-Egyptian city to Toku anyway to prevent an accidental domination win, so maybe without the culture flip I'd have had to give him something else anyway.
Fun game, I liked the novel scenario. Thanks, Cactus Pete
I initially settled on the desert 1E of the starting spot, and boy was I glad I did that, when the city borders revealed that settling there had exactly blocked our dear Prince from being able to get through the mountain pass into 'my' land without open borders. I wonder if Cactus Pete put the desert tile there deliberately to encourage people to move East? I had considered exploring SW and I feel sorry for anyone who did and as a result had their land open to invasion from the Land of the Rising Sun.
Anyway, I basically settled all the land available, only opening borders to Toku when there was nothing for him to settle. Since I'd been able to gift him a couple of techs and shared a religion, open borders was easy. Once I had open borders, I started sending troops across and over the course of a few milennia, totally wiped out all my rivals for the prince's affections. They were ugly anyway (well, actually so was the prince, to be truthful, but hey a girl can't be choosy in a world that contains but one male leader). I think the Prince saw early on the way things were working out - he spent most of the mid and late game friendly to me (excellent, since it meant he was willing to trade me all his monopoly techs, and with his rivals - ummm - shall we say - a little bogged down in minor wars, almost all his techs were monopoly techs).
The four-way catfight between us princesses was quite novel. I'd have troops around, surrounded by English, Spanish and Egyptian forces, never quite sure who was going to attack who.
I had two big problems during the game:
Firstly, war weariness. I think that was the main reason for my late victory. At one point, it was hitting +8 in quite a few cities, and of course with the always-war-or-peace setting there was no way to escape it with a peace treaty. When it was at its worst, Hatty was long since entombed, and I hadn't really attacked Spain yet, so I was sure it was mostly England-specific. All I could do was try to restrict it by wiping out England as quickly as possible and avoiding attacking Spain to avoid getting additional war weariness. Unfortunately Isabella didn't really get the idea and kept attacking me when it was blindingly obvious that England was the real enemy.
Secondly, Toku, unable to expand anywhere, resorted to building wonders instead. As a result his culture started playing havoc with my borders. My 3rd city in the game was settled to the NE of Moscow to pick up the deer. That revolted to the Japanese mid game.
First time I can ever remember losing a city to a culture flip in a GOTM. Unbelievably, for a long time it looked like Moscow could go the same way (can a capital culture-flip?) The Prince's culture eventually ate almost half of Moscow's BFC, and even a culture bomb from an artist gave only a temporary respite. On the bright side, after all the wars had finished, I had to gift an ex-Egyptian city to Toku anyway to prevent an accidental domination win, so maybe without the culture flip I'd have had to give him something else anyway.
Fun game, I liked the novel scenario. Thanks, Cactus Pete
"The map was surprisingly small for a standard map, wasn't it?" Yes, it was indeed 'radically modified'.
WelshGandalf
King
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2010
- Messages
- 743
Culture victory, 1941 AD. Toku had 3 SS casing at this point and he was well on his way to 2 legendary cities.
Right, so up to 1AD I had gotten to music first (settled GA), bit of a change from my usual teching. I couldn't decide whether to go domination or culture for a long time. I had nice base culture though as theatres/monuments/libraries all got built early on so would give double culture for a long time.
I settled the rest of the land before too much longer, I got 7 cities on there altogether. I did not found a single religion - the Japanese were busy doing that and I was lucky enough to have 4 spread to me
Great for the cultural idea.
My capital became the Oxford city with the Great Library. The gem/copper/wheat city became my GP farm. I had 1 GE, 2-4 GS and around 7-10 GA during the game.
Lost the lib race by 3 turns in around 1150AD It's my own fault, I shouldn't have traded paper to Toku, especially when he had Philo and I didn't.
In the rest of the world, Toku didn't like anyone. The Egyptians captured the Spanish capital but that was about it.
Then I implemented the war part of my strategy... I have seen people use only mounted troops (cuir or cavalry) in their armies, so I thought I would try that, and since this is vanilla civ, cavalry are great as they are available before their counter, riflemen. Also, our UU is the cossack, an upgraded cavalry I also used a trick I saw in one of kossin's recent play-throughs - build horse archers, get some money somehow & then upgrade them all. I had some saved up & put the science slider to 0% after I got to military tradition, around 1400 AD.
So there I was, with 2 or 3 cossacks, 8 horse archers and a pile of money when what happens? Toku, who recently changed to Free Religion, renounces all our deals!!!
What a prat. I gave him 1700 gold in three seperate deals, and then finally Nationalism to make him my friend again. This set me back some 30 turns (I should've just given him Nationalism at the start) but eventually I had some 14 cossacks to go forth.
I was worried they would have decent defence - this is Immortal after all - but it seems they were all too busy building armies to attack each other with. The Egyptian capital had a couple of longbowmen and some melee troops.... I mean seriously! I swept through Egypt, and after a while walked past their troops and started attacking the English, who at least had Knights and, in later days, pikemen. Seems most people had the biggest problem with the English so I think going for their heart was a good idea. I built 29 cossacks across the course of the game and still had at least 20 left at the end, they were unstoppable except for the odd unlucky roll, CR pikemen that I didn't see and when I lost concentration & left damaged ones on their own somewhere.
I could've continued & crushed the other princesses, but I didn't particularly have the inclination, I just wanted to finish & win the game. So after taking the most productive cities, and having some 52% of the landmass, I went all-out culture. The English founded Hinduism so I sent that religion back to my homeland too. The missionaries were particularly inept but after some 12 of them had been sent my 3 culture cities finally had the religion. I teched as far as steel for grenadiers and cannons. Not sure I really needed them but I like to feel safe....
A late scare occurred when the Spanish managed to woo the affections of the Japanese and their macemen appeared in my terribly-defended homelands. However I had some spare gold lying around to upgrade warriors/axemen to grenadiers but all was well. It's not like they sent a stack anyway, just a few odd macemen. Really near the end of the game, they got musketmen. Oooh, I'm so scared.
Think I used about 7 culture bombs too. This game isn't going to win any awards (except maybe slowest culture win) but I did have fun & enjoyed the theme/map, thanks Cactus Pete!
Right, so up to 1AD I had gotten to music first (settled GA), bit of a change from my usual teching. I couldn't decide whether to go domination or culture for a long time. I had nice base culture though as theatres/monuments/libraries all got built early on so would give double culture for a long time.
I settled the rest of the land before too much longer, I got 7 cities on there altogether. I did not found a single religion - the Japanese were busy doing that and I was lucky enough to have 4 spread to me
Great for the cultural idea.My capital became the Oxford city with the Great Library. The gem/copper/wheat city became my GP farm. I had 1 GE, 2-4 GS and around 7-10 GA during the game.
Lost the lib race by 3 turns in around 1150AD
It's my own fault, I shouldn't have traded paper to Toku, especially when he had Philo and I didn't.In the rest of the world, Toku didn't like anyone. The Egyptians captured the Spanish capital but that was about it.
Then I implemented the war part of my strategy... I have seen people use only mounted troops (cuir or cavalry) in their armies, so I thought I would try that, and since this is vanilla civ, cavalry are great as they are available before their counter, riflemen. Also, our UU is the cossack, an upgraded cavalry
I also used a trick I saw in one of kossin's recent play-throughs - build horse archers, get some money somehow & then upgrade them all. I had some saved up & put the science slider to 0% after I got to military tradition, around 1400 AD.So there I was, with 2 or 3 cossacks, 8 horse archers and a pile of money when what happens? Toku, who recently changed to Free Religion, renounces all our deals!!!
What a prat. I gave him 1700 gold in three seperate deals, and then finally Nationalism to make him my friend again. This set me back some 30 turns (I should've just given him Nationalism at the start) but eventually I had some 14 cossacks to go forth.I was worried they would have decent defence - this is Immortal after all - but it seems they were all too busy building armies to attack each other with. The Egyptian capital had a couple of longbowmen and some melee troops.... I mean seriously! I swept through Egypt, and after a while walked past their troops and started attacking the English, who at least had Knights and, in later days, pikemen. Seems most people had the biggest problem with the English so I think going for their heart was a good idea. I built 29 cossacks across the course of the game and still had at least 20 left at the end, they were unstoppable except for the odd unlucky roll, CR pikemen that I didn't see and when I lost concentration & left damaged ones on their own somewhere.
I could've continued & crushed the other princesses, but I didn't particularly have the inclination, I just wanted to finish & win the game. So after taking the most productive cities, and having some 52% of the landmass, I went all-out culture. The English founded Hinduism so I sent that religion back to my homeland too. The missionaries were particularly inept but after some 12 of them had been sent my 3 culture cities finally had the religion. I teched as far as steel for grenadiers and cannons. Not sure I really needed them but I like to feel safe....
A late scare occurred when the Spanish managed to woo the affections of the Japanese and their macemen appeared in my terribly-defended homelands. However I had some spare gold lying around to upgrade warriors/axemen to grenadiers but all was well. It's not like they sent a stack anyway, just a few odd macemen. Really near the end of the game, they got musketmen. Oooh, I'm so scared.
Think I used about 7 culture bombs too. This game isn't going to win any awards (except maybe slowest culture win) but I did have fun & enjoyed the theme/map, thanks Cactus Pete!
Yes, it can.
The proactive princess (pp) was at first reluctant to take on Immortal level. However, assured that shrewd play would make this one seem easier, she put on her big-girl panties and set out for victory. Unfortunately, she did not have a very good plan as to how to show the prince that she, and only she, was worthy of his attentions. Jealous rage would have to substitute for planning. And a fine substitute it would turn out to be.
The PP was in a hurry. No time to spend 12 turns wandering for a 4 food site or any of that silliness. No, she settles in place, or maybe 1S, I can’t recall (and she didn’t really care as long as she could get settled on turn zero). Lets see… agriculture is useful right away, so that detour is acceptable. Then she realizes she’s going to get a lot of subjects who can be whipped harshly to produce pointy sticks… so bronzeworking and animal husbanrdy are absolutely essential to find strategic resources before the first settler is made. This settler can then go north to take the 2 seafood/horse site and start making chariots. There look to be quite a few very good sites, but now another detour for fishing is needed. But at least the PP is thinking that its on the way to astronomy, anyhow, which will be needed to vent her rage on her rivals.
Wheel then Pottery for granaries to help the whipping, and cottaging the floodplains. She has an extra corn now, so decides that she must start showing her prince the sweet end of the rose, and gifts him one. (Her rivals will see only the thorny end!). Despite admirable defogging efforts in her lands, barb cities spawn. The first has 4 warriors… it will reach size 2 just in time for her chariots and axes to liberate. Nicely placed on the coast, it’s a keeper. And a second one spawns with 4 archers, in the next place she wanted to settle. So increase the size of the army, and take that one as well.
Meanwhile, her tech path takes her on a beeline to monarchy, so that her people will remain happy when she whips them even harder. And furthermore, she can offer casks of her best vintage to the prince. Neither the pp nor her beloved prince have any religion… the rivals have been hogging up them the early religions, and can’t seem to spread them, what with the war and the borders and such. Poor them. But the pp decides not only is it time for CoL, but that this would be a perfect opportunity to get some religion for herself… and she knows how to get it to the Prince. However, 1t before CoL is learned, the spanish hag steals it from us. She will pay for that, the pp vows!
Ironically, the Prince had similar notions, and bulbed theology on the very same turn that CoL was discovered in Spain! Not only that, but there is spontaneous spread of christianity to Moscow… on the same turn. Revolt to christianity, and open borders at Pleased. OK, lets call off this charade… the prince from here on out knows that the pp is his one true love, and the other rivals are detestable curs. But… the prince values his honor, and says the relationship cannot be consummated until the conditions he has stipulated are met. But in a gesture to his future wife, he will gift (with a gentle urging from his beloved) the knowledge of Mathematics, and archery, and eventually meditation, too. What’s a little -1 for close borders between betrothed?
Anyhow… very late the pp decides to learn alphabet, only to discover that she has not been all that shrewd after all. All her rivals are on par with her betrothed in their knowledge, that is to say well ahead of the pp. Some sort of witchcraft, surely!
A quick change of plans… Axes and chariots, even with a lot of catapults, just won’t do. They are so last year. Everyone at court is talking about these things called macemen and horse archers. If you don’t have that, your nobody. So metal working, machinery are needed (Civil Service for Bureacracy already known). And OK, 8t to build the Collosus isn’t such a bad deal, considering how many water tiles she’s working now. And it goes so well with the Great Lighthouse that was also built in St. Pete’s… which was not as useless of a bauble as she once believed, now that the prince is so congenial.
And now… the spanish hag will get her due. To make a long story short, lets just say that the pp is a rose with a lot of thorns (and a safe haven in Japan). The conquest of Spain took some time, but would have been faster if not for the meddling of that egyptian skank, who rather than attack her hated rival(s) with her stack, decided that the pp’s forces in the field were more interesting than a poorly defended spanish city. Our prince comes through, and gives us engineering, however. Very timely, prince. Thanks you sweety! A few pikemen make quick work of that skank’s horse archers, as well as improve the rate of movement across his lands. But the egyptian skank has sealed her fate, one similar to that of the spanish hag’s. But such revenge is best served cold. That british tart is getting a bit too big for her britches, and needs someone to take her down a peg, first. And I’m afraid that the forces will need to be upgraded before that can happen.
And the prince wasn’t all just sweetness, either. He shows his cunning during the war with spain, by following my war party with settlers. He’s now up to six cities and is making starting to think too much of himself. The PP desperately races a settler to block a few of the better available settling sites. He’s also gotten Taoism and Islam, and is clearly pushing his borders towards Moscow. Not good. He’s only a few percent from being able to block domination victory by land %. She would geld him if she could, but that isn’t possible (and not really advisable if a consummated wedding is the goal… see what jealous rage does for planning?).
On the tech side, education was achieved well in advance of any of the AI. A slow Oxford after that, but still long before anyone else. Now the tech gap is closing. And quickly. In fact, a race to liberalism is almost assuredly in the hands of our pp. Which free tech to aim for? Military Tradition, of course, for cossaks. However, Toku gets Edu before nationalism is finished. Risk and wait 3 turns to get Mil Trad? Yes. Then after nationalism finish the 1 turn to liberalism, and discover that the pp forgot to learn Music. Mil Trad is not available as a free tech. Grrr… after hours in her chamber where the servants could hear shattering of all sorts of funrishing… she calmly emerged telling her technology advisor to take astronomy as a free tech. We’ll see if that british tart has forgotten to lock the back door, she says.
Anyhow… another 14 turns she has learned music, gunpowder, and mil trad. Cossaks are being built at full press, with aid from a TajMaj-inspired golden age. Horse archers are upgraded. Next tech is Mil Sci, and mace are upgraded to grens. There is no force on earth which could withstand such an onslaught.
And again to make a long story short, the british tart was felled. The pp took her from behind, thus preventing her beloved prince from sneaking out even more cities. (She was still a bit upset with him that he culture-flipped the spanish holy city of judaism recently). But the prince has settled on ice, anything to thwart the pp, because now he sees clearly how truly black her heart is. No more friendly relations as he decides that freedom of religion is the way to go. But there is more than one way to control a man… mercantilism ensures that he will be at least pleased for the rest of the game.
But the damage is done. The dom limit requires 70% of land area in this game (iirc), and Toku has reached the 35% range. Domination is out of the question. As conquest always was. Toku’s going culture, and the pp’s science rate is kicking butt… so she could go for space and surely win. However, she has a point to make, and such a statement will best be made by having the whole world elect her queen (the he can come begging to her for marriage, and see how he likes it!). Assuming* 66% of world population is needed, the pp is carefully watching pop counts. Yes… beeline mass media seems to be the way to go. Then beeline biology for some insurance.
But first, lets get some payback on that egyptian skank who is so backwards she’s still defending with lb’s and pikes, and… horse archers! LOL… what self respecting dame would be caught dead with horse archers in this day and age???
Very quickly, the world is down to two civilizations. One big and mean, able to choose its victory condition, and one very cultured but kind of shoddy one. Well… which would you choose as YOUR UN president? That’s right… our proactive princess is recognized as the only worthy suitor to Toku… by voting herself diplomatic victory against her betrothed around 1840AD.
As a wedding gift, the pp presents to her groom 3 aged casks from her vinyards. Upon opening them, he finds the heads of her three rivals preserved in the ferment. And the pp says sweetly, “You weren’t planning on drinking beer and watching football this Sunday, were you? I think it would be nice if you finished remodelling the kitchen first, dear. And after that, honey, wouldn't you rather like to massage my feet?”
And so they lived happily ever after…
*Note, after the vote, I think only >60% of the world pop was needed for UN victory. Oh well, the egyptian skank needed to be dealt with anyhow, and it didn't affect the finish date.
The PP was in a hurry. No time to spend 12 turns wandering for a 4 food site or any of that silliness. No, she settles in place, or maybe 1S, I can’t recall (and she didn’t really care as long as she could get settled on turn zero). Lets see… agriculture is useful right away, so that detour is acceptable. Then she realizes she’s going to get a lot of subjects who can be whipped harshly to produce pointy sticks… so bronzeworking and animal husbanrdy are absolutely essential to find strategic resources before the first settler is made. This settler can then go north to take the 2 seafood/horse site and start making chariots. There look to be quite a few very good sites, but now another detour for fishing is needed. But at least the PP is thinking that its on the way to astronomy, anyhow, which will be needed to vent her rage on her rivals.
Wheel then Pottery for granaries to help the whipping, and cottaging the floodplains. She has an extra corn now, so decides that she must start showing her prince the sweet end of the rose, and gifts him one. (Her rivals will see only the thorny end!). Despite admirable defogging efforts in her lands, barb cities spawn. The first has 4 warriors… it will reach size 2 just in time for her chariots and axes to liberate. Nicely placed on the coast, it’s a keeper. And a second one spawns with 4 archers, in the next place she wanted to settle. So increase the size of the army, and take that one as well.
Meanwhile, her tech path takes her on a beeline to monarchy, so that her people will remain happy when she whips them even harder. And furthermore, she can offer casks of her best vintage to the prince. Neither the pp nor her beloved prince have any religion… the rivals have been hogging up them the early religions, and can’t seem to spread them, what with the war and the borders and such. Poor them. But the pp decides not only is it time for CoL, but that this would be a perfect opportunity to get some religion for herself… and she knows how to get it to the Prince. However, 1t before CoL is learned, the spanish hag steals it from us. She will pay for that, the pp vows!
Ironically, the Prince had similar notions, and bulbed theology on the very same turn that CoL was discovered in Spain! Not only that, but there is spontaneous spread of christianity to Moscow… on the same turn. Revolt to christianity, and open borders at Pleased. OK, lets call off this charade… the prince from here on out knows that the pp is his one true love, and the other rivals are detestable curs. But… the prince values his honor, and says the relationship cannot be consummated until the conditions he has stipulated are met. But in a gesture to his future wife, he will gift (with a gentle urging from his beloved) the knowledge of Mathematics, and archery, and eventually meditation, too. What’s a little -1 for close borders between betrothed?
Anyhow… very late the pp decides to learn alphabet, only to discover that she has not been all that shrewd after all. All her rivals are on par with her betrothed in their knowledge, that is to say well ahead of the pp. Some sort of witchcraft, surely!
A quick change of plans… Axes and chariots, even with a lot of catapults, just won’t do. They are so last year. Everyone at court is talking about these things called macemen and horse archers. If you don’t have that, your nobody. So metal working, machinery are needed (Civil Service for Bureacracy already known). And OK, 8t to build the Collosus isn’t such a bad deal, considering how many water tiles she’s working now. And it goes so well with the Great Lighthouse that was also built in St. Pete’s… which was not as useless of a bauble as she once believed, now that the prince is so congenial.
And now… the spanish hag will get her due. To make a long story short, lets just say that the pp is a rose with a lot of thorns (and a safe haven in Japan). The conquest of Spain took some time, but would have been faster if not for the meddling of that egyptian skank, who rather than attack her hated rival(s) with her stack, decided that the pp’s forces in the field were more interesting than a poorly defended spanish city. Our prince comes through, and gives us engineering, however. Very timely, prince. Thanks you sweety! A few pikemen make quick work of that skank’s horse archers, as well as improve the rate of movement across his lands. But the egyptian skank has sealed her fate, one similar to that of the spanish hag’s. But such revenge is best served cold. That british tart is getting a bit too big for her britches, and needs someone to take her down a peg, first. And I’m afraid that the forces will need to be upgraded before that can happen.
And the prince wasn’t all just sweetness, either. He shows his cunning during the war with spain, by following my war party with settlers. He’s now up to six cities and is making starting to think too much of himself. The PP desperately races a settler to block a few of the better available settling sites. He’s also gotten Taoism and Islam, and is clearly pushing his borders towards Moscow. Not good. He’s only a few percent from being able to block domination victory by land %. She would geld him if she could, but that isn’t possible (and not really advisable if a consummated wedding is the goal… see what jealous rage does for planning?).
On the tech side, education was achieved well in advance of any of the AI. A slow Oxford after that, but still long before anyone else. Now the tech gap is closing. And quickly. In fact, a race to liberalism is almost assuredly in the hands of our pp. Which free tech to aim for? Military Tradition, of course, for cossaks. However, Toku gets Edu before nationalism is finished. Risk and wait 3 turns to get Mil Trad? Yes. Then after nationalism finish the 1 turn to liberalism, and discover that the pp forgot to learn Music. Mil Trad is not available as a free tech. Grrr… after hours in her chamber where the servants could hear shattering of all sorts of funrishing… she calmly emerged telling her technology advisor to take astronomy as a free tech. We’ll see if that british tart has forgotten to lock the back door, she says.
Anyhow… another 14 turns she has learned music, gunpowder, and mil trad. Cossaks are being built at full press, with aid from a TajMaj-inspired golden age. Horse archers are upgraded. Next tech is Mil Sci, and mace are upgraded to grens. There is no force on earth which could withstand such an onslaught.
And again to make a long story short, the british tart was felled. The pp took her from behind, thus preventing her beloved prince from sneaking out even more cities. (She was still a bit upset with him that he culture-flipped the spanish holy city of judaism recently). But the prince has settled on ice, anything to thwart the pp, because now he sees clearly how truly black her heart is. No more friendly relations as he decides that freedom of religion is the way to go. But there is more than one way to control a man… mercantilism ensures that he will be at least pleased for the rest of the game.
But the damage is done. The dom limit requires 70% of land area in this game (iirc), and Toku has reached the 35% range. Domination is out of the question. As conquest always was. Toku’s going culture, and the pp’s science rate is kicking butt… so she could go for space and surely win. However, she has a point to make, and such a statement will best be made by having the whole world elect her queen (the he can come begging to her for marriage, and see how he likes it!). Assuming* 66% of world population is needed, the pp is carefully watching pop counts. Yes… beeline mass media seems to be the way to go. Then beeline biology for some insurance.
But first, lets get some payback on that egyptian skank who is so backwards she’s still defending with lb’s and pikes, and… horse archers! LOL… what self respecting dame would be caught dead with horse archers in this day and age???
Very quickly, the world is down to two civilizations. One big and mean, able to choose its victory condition, and one very cultured but kind of shoddy one. Well… which would you choose as YOUR UN president? That’s right… our proactive princess is recognized as the only worthy suitor to Toku… by voting herself diplomatic victory against her betrothed around 1840AD.
As a wedding gift, the pp presents to her groom 3 aged casks from her vinyards. Upon opening them, he finds the heads of her three rivals preserved in the ferment. And the pp says sweetly, “You weren’t planning on drinking beer and watching football this Sunday, were you? I think it would be nice if you finished remodelling the kitchen first, dear. And after that, honey, wouldn't you rather like to massage my feet?”
And so they lived happily ever after…
Spoiler :
*Note, after the vote, I think only >60% of the world pop was needed for UN victory. Oh well, the egyptian skank needed to be dealt with anyhow, and it didn't affect the finish date.
Nice write-up kcd_swede.
Can I ask something, is PP a nickname for my wife, she sounds eerily familiar.
Can I ask something, is PP a nickname for my wife, she sounds eerily familiar.
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