GOTM as a CIV learning tool - make it easy PLEASE!

[HangingChadDad]

I suppose I am not part of the group which obviously follows and enjoys playing these games in "real time". I am, however, a member of a very large group hungry to learn more about CIV as I have time.

I reach this "learning point" the same as many I expect. I am a very patient player and have been playing CIV for many years even tho I only play in spurts of interest. (I'm a bit stogey I expect as I use no "cheats" as I perceive them in my own mind even tho it doesnt bother me for others to use them.. and I enjoy reading about the many clever ways they can be used)

I am often driven to "learning mode" after a spurt of play in which I do very poorly compared to most players in this forum and feel like I am quite possibly the slowest learner on the planet when it comes to Civ..

This brings me to the POINT OF THE POST finally: WHY is it that there is no

=link to the older game downloads for the GOTM games=

I suffered this same frustration in Civ2 and now that I am experimenting with Civ3 (comp was too slow before) I did end up finally finding them for Civ2 but it seems to me there should be a PROMINENT LINK on the GOTM HOME PAGE that points to these files.

Now I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm not a dunce I don't think, and it always seems that I spend HOURS trying to find a game when I want to play an old game and read peoples comments and see how clever they were and what their different styles are. And I'm pretty internet knowledgeable. I can't imagine how many people give up and perhaps never get into CIV games because of this frustration. I can tell by reading these posts that this use of the GOTM dl's is VERY COMMON in the users of this board (which is perhaps the best board on the net by the way.. congrats!)

Please add a single page link to the download of the old GOTM files and link in new games as they are added. It wouldn't hurt for the link to be on the "locked in" messages either.

I'd be most appreciative. Thanks
If I've missed something obvious, please forgive me.

 

[Gyathaar]

Go to http://gotm.civfanatics.net/
select the game you want to play in the pulldown menu in bottom left corner, and click game details..
the links to the starting save games are on those pages
the links to the different players end game saves are on the game results page

 

[ainwood]

Hi - welcome to CFC and the GOTM.

The links to the old downloads ARE on the GOTM homepage:

go to http://gotm.civfanatics.net and look on the menu on the left-hand-side. There is a combo box with the header aobve it "completed games". Selecting one of those and pressing the "Game detail" button will take you to the web-page where you can download the starting save. Alternatively, you can use the "Game Results" button to get a list of results, and you can also download (completed) saves from each player.

The only thing we don't have is a link to the 'spoiler' threads, which, as soon as Alan sees this, I'm sure he'll start thinking about how he can get them linked as well.

 

[AlanH]

Hmm! As Gyathaar and Ainwood point out, the links to all the actual game download pages are available in one place, on the left hand side of every GOTM site page.

No one has mentioned another place that meets most of HangingChadDad's requirements, provides the pre-requisite add-on pack links, and links in the threads for each game, right here in River City and IMMEDIATELY above this thread in the forum list.

The GOTM Reference Thread is "a single page link to the download of the old GOTM files", as well as providing a wealth of links to additional educational and historical detail on the competition compiled by civ_steve. And it always has been "on the 'locked in' messages" as well. I did "link in new games as they are added" until it only became necessary to link to each game's reference thread. I admit to not having updated it recently , so it's five months out of date, and the game reference threads have ceased again. In my defence, it hasn't been obvious that there are many people using this resource, but spurred on by this reminder, I'll do something about that Real Soon Now (TM).

So we are not really that bad, are we?

 

[HangingChadDad]

Go to http://gotm.civfanatics.net/
select the game you want to play in the pulldown menu in bottom left corner, and click game details..
the links to the starting save games are on those pages
the links to the different players end game saves are on the game results page

I did see this menu (and this "new" intro page is a NICE change to the GOTM btw .. a tip of the hat to whoever came up with it.. a clear move in the right direction ) but it seems to me that many games are not listed here. For example there was an extended discussion about GOTM11 in the forum.. but it doesn't seem to be in the list. I do appreciate that many of you seem to be zeroing in on this need, I just don't think its quite there yet. I know that while the old Civ 2 GOTM history was being put together that many games got "lost" and I think were recovered by various people who had files stashed away on their own pc's. Thanks for the prompt note.

I did go there and check a sample game after you mentioned this (picked 10 for no particular reason). I apologize that I didn't realize that by clicking the player that I could get their game; and even when I realized that, I didn't realize that this included the START game as well as the player's game. You fellows are doing many nice things.. thanks again.

PS: I'm also trying to get a handle on the "mods" that have to be put into C3 in order to use them.. lol.. this is getting too high-tech for us old fellows.

Heck I can barely get my pc to run C3 [an "old" 1.5GHz 125MB (which I might add is BARELY good enuf to run C3 Complete.. the one I happened to buy) that my kids didn't want anymore since it was too old.].

My best pc before was a 233MHz P2 with 200Meg of mem.
gamers! the driving force for home computers!

 

[Offa]

I rather agree with HangingChadDad here, having recently tried my hand at a very old gotm. Although you can access old games and the results, it does take quite a bit of effort to find the old spoiler threads. Obviously this isn't due to the GOTM staff doing anything wrong, but is due to the archiving of old threads, and the limited search facility on the site.

 

[HangingChadDad]

Thanks to all of you for
the QUALITY of the web content
the RESPONSIVENESS of the moderators and other useful folk here
the THOROUGH and THOUGHTFUL followthrough on many levels of demand to users!

I *think* I may be catching on.. this is sooo much better than it was a couple of years ago when I tried this for Civ2. I think I may have let some of that frustration color my thinking this time . I am stunned by the improvements you folk have made. Now if I can just master the confusing world of the many versions of C3 and its many formats and modification.. heck I can barely remember all the abbrev's for all the variations.. this ain't ur pop's game anymore!

*goes off to sooth nerves and meditate on life*

 

[AlanH]

We are trying to make the information and history we have accessible, but I'm sure we fail from time to time - it's too easy to assume newcomers know where to find things that become second nature to regular site visitors. Also, I've only been around for a couple of years, so all this talk of GOTM's before about 17 is pre-history to me - I have enough trouble tracking the games that fall within my living memory. Please let me know if you spot any problems that you think we can address.

@Offa (and anyone else reading this): If you find any buried treasure that you think others might want to know about, please drop me a line and I'll try to find an appropriate place to add a link.

[PS] We take no responsibility for Civ2 in this department

 

[DJMGator13]

As far as the mods go you should just download AlanH's All in One Installer. It is listed in his sig and is very useful.

 

[HangingChadDad]

Oh I do have one further question. I have Civ III "complete".. I assume this is the C3C abbrev that I see around? When I look at the games, I often see that it is "important to select the correct format" and I see (I assume for games prior to the C3C release) that they are for "the MAC" the pc "PTW" and for pc "v1.29". I feel kind of dumb but I can't figure out which version my C3C is.. normally I can find "about" but this one seems to have a variety of DIFFERENT versions built in.. in the menu I can select just "start" and its variants.. is this "v1.29"? then there is "Conquests" (is this "PTW"?) which have modified rules so it seems.. does this still fall in the "v1.29" or is this not relevant to any of the GOTM things? then there is a "Conquests" which also seem to be "modified" games.. is it also "v1.29" or is it something else.. and does it relate in any way to the GOTM? both of these last groups ("Conquests" and "Content") seem to be what I would have previously called "scenerios" I find nothing in any of the menus or notes that say this is "version X.XX". Can I tell?

When I go to the Civ3.com web site it tells me that I have the latest version and need no patches. Is this true from the GOTM standpoint?

When using the C3C version, it also behaves rather oddly. In all the cases where I can make sense of it it seems to relate to the fact that C3C is such a computer hog and that my pc is only just on the edge of ok. I have to shut down all but explorer and systray or it pretty much just bombs with various messages.

Does "Multiplayer" have any relevance? That is also an item on the opening menu and is an online version as I understand, tho I've never played it.

Also since this C3C seems to have several complete (wow! wonder if thats why they call it that?.. hehe) versions of Civ on it does that mean that I can play all the versions? and if so do I need to follow special instructions? I have read what seems to be a neat section on the "installer". I dl'd it but have not applied it as I am not sure it applies to the C3C version. The "installer" doesn't seem to reference the C3C version unless I'm just not seeing it.

Sorry for exposing all of my ignorance in one thread.. i've been saving up..

 

[AlanH]

Civ3 complete is a package containing:

- Civ3 original, aka vanilla, aka version 1.29f. You shouldn't need to use this for recent GOTMs, but ancient ones from GOTM 16 backwards were based on vanilla if you really want to go back that far.

- Play the World, aka PtW. Should be version 1.27f. Use this to play Classic GOTMs since about GOTM 17.

- Civ3 Conquests, aka C3C. Should be version 1.22. Use this to play Conquests COTMs. We have only been supporting C3C with the COTM series, for the last 12 months.

You should have all three executables installed, but not being a PC user I've no idea which ones you can get to via shortcuts and which you have to get to via the Start menu. You can see the version number when you start each executable up - bottom left corner of the start-up screen.

PtW and C3C both have multiplayer capability which we don't exploit in GOTM. This is used for online play against other humans on a LAN or across the Internet. It's also used for Play By Email games (PBEM).

128 MBytes is below the recommended memory level for C3C, I think. I recommend you increase it. Memory is very cheap these days - go to Crucial's web site and look up the type you need for your computer. You should be able to put 256MB or 512 MB in and it may well transform the performance of your PC as well as make youer Civ3 experience far better.

 

[AlanH]

There are various "installers" relating to GOTM. During the phase GOTM 16 to GOTM 27 all games required that you installed some mods, whether you were playing in Civ3 1.29f/vanilla or PtW. Earlier games played in standard vanilla, and later games can all be played in standard PtW (GOTMs) or C3C (COTMs).

For those in-between games you can either play using PtW plus mods, using the mod pack installers listed in the Reference Thread, or play them in vanilla and use the All-in-One installer for version 1.29f linked in my signature (Edit: The Windows one, not the Mac one!). You'll have to read the Readme in the installer and do a couple of file swaps, as the installer is optimised to support current games, not those legacy ones.

Whew! It's complicated, isn't it! Sorry if I've confused you even more.

 

[HangingChadDad]

- Civ3 original, aka vanilla, aka version 1.29f. You shouldn't need to use this for recent GOTMs, but ancient ones from GOTM 16 backwards were based on vanilla if you really want to go back that far.

Well I did simultaneously discover this. I can find no way in game, but there is a readme file in the directory that says it is 1.29f. Thanks

- Play the World, aka PtW. Should be version 1.21f. Use this to play Classic GOTMs since about GOTM 17.

According to another readme.txt file in the PTW folder specifies that it is version 1.26f according to my CD install. Thanks

- Civ3 Conquests, aka C3C. Should be version 1.22. Use this to play Conquests COTMs. We have only been supporting C3C with the COTM series, for the last 12 months.

This is verified by my .txt files in the folders.. again it seems unidentifiable "ingame"

You should have all three executables installed, but not being a PC user I've no idea which ones you can get to via shortcuts and which you have to get to via the Start menu. You can see the version number when you start each executable up - bottom left corner of the start-up screen.

I did not see this when I was looking for it.. it is grey on grey and my eyesight is not great.. I will say tho that C3 Complete SEEMS to always startup with the "bank vault" screen which always says version is 1.22 no matter which of them you chose to play. (this seems true even tho u execute the file direct from the sub directory) I haven't explored this much for now. Thanks for pointing this out to me tho. They refer to the ability to start up each game seperately by selecting the executable from the appropriate file (they are seperated in the C3 COMPLETE directory structure) I made a quick shot at starting the PTW version this way and immediately started getting errors of "files not found" mostly seeming to be graphics etc.. it did start tho finally at least on the surface.. I did not enter the game to verify it would play.

I expect some prep work is required to get it to run properly. Windows seems to want to run to the "install directory" structure in the registry to run.. I probably can edit it and patch around to cobble it up. May try if I get some time. I will post any "revelations" that I may come up with if I do..

And of course one could easily create these icons to start from the desktop if one so desired.. I may even do this if I get into the GOTM. If I get it all set up to run cleanly I will post my setup for the benefit of others who use C3 COMPLETE.

PtW and C3C both have multiplayer capability which we don't exploit in GOTM. This is used for online play against other humans on a LAN or across the Internet. It's also used for Play By Email games (PBEM).

128 MBytes is below the recommended memory level for C3C, I think. I recommend you increase it. Memory is very cheap these days - go to Crucial's web site and look up the type you need for your computer. You should be able to put 256MB or 512 MB in and it may well transform the performance of your PC as well as make youer Civ3 experience far better.

.

Well it's dead on to be technical.. And thanks but I can buy a modest new PC for the price of 512MB of 40ns RDRAM.. ...

 

[HangingChadDad]

You'll have to read the Readme in the installer and do a couple of file swaps, as the installer is optimised to support current games, not those legacy ones.

Ok.. thx for the tip.. can I run the installer direct to the C3COMPLETE directory as is or do I need to convert the sub games (vanilla, PTW and Conquests) to seperate file startup structures?

Whew! It's complicated, isn't it! Sorry if I've confused you even more.

Getting that way.. and people tell me DOS was hard! lol..

*longs for the good old days and looks dreamy-eyed*

 

[AlanH]

Sorry, the version info I gave for PtW should be 1.27f.

Normally the start up screen indicates which executable you've launched, and I'd have thought they should all "just work". If you are having problems launching the different versions then either the installation is screwed up or you aren't doing it right.

Before you start installing the GOTM mod packs I suggest you make sure you know where everything *really* is, and how to launch each version successfully in its delivered form. When you are on solid ground you can then start adding the GOTM bits. It's called "taking one step at a time"

I think Firaxis/Atari are way optimistic on memory requirements if they think it'll run in 128MB. What's 40nS RDRam? SDRam should be all you need, and even if you *can* get another computer for the price of 256 or 512 MB of PC133, I guarantee you'll still need to give it more memory.

 

[Abegweit]

Well it's dead on to be technical.. And thanks but I can buy a modest new PC for the price of 512MB of 40ns RDRAM.. ...

I think your pricing info may be out of date.... Either that or I would sure like to know where you buy your PCs Google RDRAM

Getting a 256MByte module and replacing one of your 64s might be a good compromise on price.

@AlanH - RDRam was a kind of inefficient and very expensive memory used by the first P4s.

 

[AlanH]

Having now seen this on Crucial's site:

Currently, Crucial Technology does not offer RDRAM upgrades because a relatively small number of our customers have expressed interest in it. Crucial makes every effort to stay at the forefront of the memory industry while providing our customers with what they want and need. At this time, there is not enough demand for us to shift or broaden our focus

I should probably withdraw my comment about changing PC. It sounds like this machine is very much in a minority. Perhaps a replacement PC *is* in order. I'm now no longer surprised that I'd never heard of RDRAM

 

[Abegweit]

Alan, I think you are over-reacting.

RD RAM is a classic example of what happens when a company tries to use the artificial state-supplied monopolies called "patents" to milk an early technical lead for all its worth, instead of simply taking advantage of the fact that they are better in order to beat the competition in the marketplace.

Back when Intel first introduced the P4, everyone was touting Rambus as the way of the future. It was far faster than SDRAM (4X as I recall) and had other advantages such as lower pin count and better efficiency. Intel was so sure that RDRAM was the wave of the future that they didn't even bother to support SDRAM in their first P4 chipsets.

Being thoroughly puffed up by their obvious superiority, RAMBUS decided to jack up the price of its product and refused to licence it to other producers.

When they did this, people started looking for deficiencies in the design. And they found its Achilles' Heel - very high latency. The competition leaped on this fact. The market refused to pay the artificially high prices. Someone designed DDR and let the rest of the world use it too. Better than RDRAM in some ways and worse in others, but RAMBUS made sure that people would use the competition instead.

When DDR came along, RAMBUS's reaction was to sue for patent infringement. I have no idea about the technical merits of their case but they lost. For once the courts came up with a just verdict. They are history and they deserved it.

Their story kinda reminds you of another company whose name is that of a fruit

 

[HangingChadDad]

Normally the start up screen indicates which executable you've launched, and I'd have thought they should all "just work". If you are having problems launching the different versions then either the installation is screwed up or you aren't doing it right.

No they run fine afaik.. i only play the C3 vanilla normally but I have looked at a few games in the Conquest and PTW.. all 3 are launched normally from a common entry screen (labeled 1.22) I only looked at it in an instant passing and so can't answer much more in depth than this.. I have the skills to do it (too bad I'm not as good at Civ! ) but haven't had the time/interest.. Since they normally start from the common screen, i've had no occasion to use them from the individual launches other than the "quicky start try" mentioned above. If I find anything of interest I'll post when/if I get to it.. great help on your part tho.. thx

Before you start installing the GOTM mod packs I suggest you make sure you know where everything *really* is, and how to launch each version successfully in its delivered form. When you are on solid ground you can then start adding the GOTM bits. It's called "taking one step at a time"

Yes agreed.. just need the time to fool with it..

I think Firaxis/Atari are way optimistic on memory requirements if they think it'll run in 128MB. What's 40nS RDRam? SDRam should be all you need, and even if you *can* get another computer for the price of 256 or 512 MB of PC133, I guarantee you'll still need to give it more memory.

..... BEGIN TOTALLY IRRELAVANT BUT INTERESTING ( to me anyways )COMMENTS..

I think enuf has been said here.. lol... oh and for those interested MANY things still use RAMBUS memory (or RDRAM, etc) but all are specialized products now.. as someone mentioned, they kind of ran themselves out of the market.. too bad too.. it is a fine product used as designed.. just a bit pricey and agravated by the relative scarcity in the volume sellers. They did indeed cut their own throat.

wrt to pc pricing keep in mind that I am using a 1.5GHz now and the cheapie popoff pc's in the throwaway and "clearance" category are running 2.4+GHz now.. lol no doubt the accessories would far outway the pc price on a new system in this category.. even e-system pc's would not deign to build one of these now..

Fact is i'd prolly have to sort through mounds of merchandise sold on todays market to find one as bad as the one I run.. HAHA

Plus it is worth note that there are only a few reasons to having ANY pc as powerful as todays "hot" units.. games, games, games, games, games, games, games, games, video editing, big databases, and compilers.. any business app runs very nicely at 200MEGAhertz.. (no that's not a typo.. lol).. games drive the pc market.. Just popping off, I'd say 98% of the pc market is for game users.. even for people who pretend to "need" it for business, etc.. lol.. and todays games are H O G S hehe.. you know that when 3 yr old turn-based strategy games like CIV and SIMCITY choke on a machine, its a sad case indeed..

I mean most patches today are larger than the sum of all the HD space I owned in my life through about 1995.. that's how old I am.. hehe that's only slightly tongue in cheek. My first pc cost me 7000 dollars, had a 12 inch amber "4 color" screen, 64k of memory, ran at 4.77MHz, a dot-matrix printer, and had a WHOPPING 10Meg HD and ran DOS only..

oh well.. enuf old man stories.. hehe

Seriously tho.. I thank all of you for ur attn, patience, and help..

 

[Peanut]

What ?!? You had a 10 M hard disk ?? Sheer Luxury ! You must be a just a young fellow !

The first desktop I worked with only had 2x 5 1/4 " floppy drives (128Kb each), a 2-colour screen (black & sort-of-white), 32K memory and ran CP/M (kind of DOS around before Microsoft was born). And we were very excited when Borland's Turbo Pascal v1 came out (ie. Delphi as it was back about 20 generations).

... Oops ... back on topic ... I do encourage you to go back over the older GOTMs say from 14 or 15 onwards and read the published accounts of the different ways people played. I found it very instructive.