GOTM web page needs a revamp -- urgently

[siggboy]

You are free to edit the downloaded WB save any way you choose. It's just a text file.

We haven't given any thought to changing it to try to cater for every possible user requirement

That's fair enough. I know how to edit the WB files so I'm perfectly happy with what I get.

The average player doesn't, however. The average player will get the menu to select his favourite game speed, and will end up with getting not enough turns to complete the map (if the chosen speed is slower than the setting in the WB file). To add insult to injury, you don't even notice that before it's much too late (it's pretty frustrating to play a perfect game and then have "100 turns left" in 1850...).

Therefore, and since it's just a matter of changing one line in the WBSave before publishing it, you might consider to just do that, even though it might only be a "bonus feature" to the site.

 

[AlanH]

Ar you saying we should set Speed=NONE?

 

[siggboy]

Ar you saying we should set Speed=NONE?

MaxTurns=0 and Speed=NONE.

The former is essential to give the correct number of turns to the player, and the latter at necessary at least to assure that the AI makes correct assumptions about the game speed (the player selection does not override the "Speed" directive in the WB file as far as the AI is concerned; at least that's what I've been told).

 

[AlanH]

I assume that, if we put Speed=NONE, then the save will not play at the designed speed by default. I don't think that is what we want. If players are going to take the GOTM save and play it as a different game, then they might as well create a random game and play it. I see no point in using the GOTM WB save unless you are trying to compare results with other players.

 

[siggboy]

I assume that, if we put Speed=NONE, then the save will not play at the designed speed by default. I don't think that is what we want. If players are going to take the GOTM save and play it as a different game, then they might as well create a random game and play it.

If players want the GOTM game exactly as it was designed, they can simply download the official save file. No need for the WB save then. If you publish a WB file at all, it should be (a) working correctly and (b) allow the player to make full use of the scenario by adjusting speed, difficulty and options.

The player is going to download the WB save and going to assume that the difficulty and game speed can be chosen freely, because the appropriate options are available.

Unfortunately, unless you edit them, the WB files are generated by Civ are BROKEN, as the "missing turns" example from above shows. Do you want to publish broken WB files on the xOTM page? Probably not.

If you want to make sure that the games are only played in the speed they were originally designed for, you should set:

ForceControl=FORCECONTROL_SPEED
ForceControl=FORCECONTROL_MAX_TURNS

in the WB file. As I've said above, however, I don't see the point here because the official save files already enforce the rules via the HOF Mod requirement and the locking of the Assets folder.

 

[nokem]

I see no point in using the GOTM WB save unless you are trying to compare results with other players.

I sometimes play through old GOTMs instead of random games because the GOTMs have been selected and tweaked to provide an interesting and challenging experience. And sometimes there are little surprises like all-barb continents etc. At the moment I only play the Epic speed ones because that's my preferred setting. Now I know how to change the speed I can play the rest

Doesn't have to be any extra work for the game designers - just a short note to the download page explaining how to change the speed? I don't mind editing the save.

nokem

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Doesn't have to be any extra work for the game designers - just a short note to the download page explaining how to change the speed? I don't mind editing the save.

nokem

This sounds like a good compromise.

@AlanH - I'm not sure if you saw my post about the SGOTM graph.

 

[AlanH]

If players want the GOTM game exactly as it was designed, they can simply download the official save file. No need for the WB save then.

Not necessarily. They may not want the hassle of the HoF Mod, or they may have the wrong versions of software .....

If you publish a WB file at all, it should be (a) working correctly and (b) allow the player to make full use of the scenario by adjusting speed, difficulty and options.

I have already said I have referred your comments to the designers. I am NOT a game designer. Please do them the courtesy of allowing them to respond, then I'll be able to focus my attention on the issues I can do something about.

 

[AlanH]

@AlanH - I'm not sure if you saw my post about the SGOTM graph.

I did, but I haven't had time to look at the issue. I have had visitors this weekend. I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

[UPDATE] I've just had a look at it. How pathetic is that?! Windows can't scale a .png image without making a pig's ear of it! Actually, it looks fine at minimum size in Opera/Windows here, and all my Mac browsers render it OK. I'll try to find a solution for IE7 and Firefox/Windows tomorrow.

 

[AlanH]

I've rescaled everything on the graph now. It looks OK to me in my Parallels/Windows XP environment at the 1000px minimum viewport width, but please let me know how it works for you.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I've rescaled everything on the graph now. It looks OK to me in my Parallels/Windows XP environment at the 1000px minimum viewport width, but please let me know how it works for you.

Alan, that looks much more readable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Doesn't have to be any extra work for the game designers - just a short note to the download page explaining how to change the speed? I don't mind editing the save.

Thanks for the offer. Unfortunately, even if you were to volunteer to edit each save, that means we still have to send you the save, get it back from you, and store it again, overwriting the save we made when we created the game. (And we'd have to make sure the timing is correct: We can't send you the save until the competition is over, and we must have it back and installed before the results are published...) I think that adds up to being more complex than if we edited the saves ourselves. Given that this would have to reliably happen for every game, I'm rather inclined to the view that the worldbuilder save we make available really has to be the one that we used to generate the game, with whatever idiosyncracies etc. the game puts in it, because anything else just adds more work and more things that can go wrong.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's fair enough. I know how to edit the WB files so I'm perfectly happy with what I get.

The average player doesn't, however. The average player will get the menu to select his favourite game speed, and will end up with getting not enough turns to complete the map (if the chosen speed is slower than the setting in the WB file). To add insult to injury, you don't even notice that before it's much too late (it's pretty frustrating to play a perfect game and then have "100 turns left" in 1850...).

I really don't see that. A player who plays till 1850 before noticing that the gamespeed wasn't what he thought it was and he only has 100 turns left would really have to be incredibly unobservant! When I play, I tend to notice the speed within the first turn or so (the time it'll take to build the first warrior kinda gives it away.... )

ISTM that people who download the worldbuilder saves are likely to have already looked at the results; many of them will have read the spoilers, some of them will even have entered the game and want to have another go (When the patch or HOF mod version changes, it often becomes impossible to play from previous savegame files, so the worldbuilder save is the only way to retry early GOTMs). So many, I would guess most, of the people downloading the saves will already not only know who all the other civs are, but have a pretty good idea even of what the map is like. So surely what we currently offer is good for those people, with the added bonus that they can opt to play a different civ/speed/difficulty if they so wish? I can't see that changing the save is going to offer any substantial improvement - certainly not anything that would justify the effort/coordination involved in editing it every game ???

 

[siggboy]

I really don't see that. A player who plays till 1850 before noticing that the gamespeed wasn't what he thought it was and he only has 100 turns left would really have to be incredibly unobservant! When I play, I tend to notice the speed within the first turn or so (the time it'll take to build the first warrior kinda gives it away.... )

You get the correct speed. But you don't get the correct number of turns. So, for example, if the WBSave is created on "Normal" speed, and you then select "Epic" speed when opening the scenario, you get Epic game speed (e.g. 23 turns for a Worker build etc. etc.) and 500 turns to complete the game.

This will end the game at around 1900. Which you won't notice unless you have a mod that shows the total/remaining number of turns. Even with such a mod it's very easy to miss because it's totally unexpected (plus the player might not even know how many turns he is supposed to get on a given speed).

I've also heard that the AI assumes it's playing on the speed specified in the WBSave -- that would mean the AI miscalculates build and movement times when making decisions. I have had no opportunity yet to actually verify this but it would make sense. It doesn't really matter much since the missing turns issue is a game breaker already.

I can't see that changing the save is going to offer any substantial improvement - certainly not anything that would justify the effort/coordination involved in editing it every game ???

Way too many words have been lost about this by now, so let me point out the essential fact here: unedited WBSaves, as they are generated by Civilization IV, are broken, unless you lock the game speed so it cannot be changed by the player (and then they would not be unedited files anymore in the first place). Hence, the substantial improvement gained from editing them would be that you won't be offering broken WB files on the homepage ;-).

 

[nokem]

.. even if you were to volunteer to edit each save(

I certainly wasn't volunteering for that. I meant if you added a short note to the download page explaining how to change the game speed then anyone (me, for example) who downloaded the WB save would be able to choose the speed by editing it.

However the instructions are in this thread so I'm perfectly happy already.

 

[schmiddi]

What I just stumbled upon when uploading a save:

Under notes it says:
5. * Beyond the Sword will be supported in the GOTM competitions in the near future.

seems a little outdated.

 

[AlanH]

Under notes it says:
5. * Beyond the Sword will be supported in the GOTM competitions in the near future.

seems a little outdated.

The last footnote on the page ...

If that's the biggest criticism you can offer then I assume you don't feel the site has any major problems

I've removed it.

 

[BakeliteRules]

My 2 cents....

As a reletive newbie who is hooked on CIV4 I can attest to a frustration in navigating about the site. I feel like GOTM submssions, HOF stuff and private game challenges are geared entirely towards the experienced gamer and doesn't promote the newcomer like me to test the waters. Example: I have tried playing the last few GOTM's but find no incentive to submit my pittiful losses to the forum. I follow the SGOTM and am learning a lot- but just try and find it from the main page. Even worse is to try and find the current progress page for a SGOTM. The only way I do it now is with a direct "favorites" in my browser. I don't know the last time I used the main page (too confusing). If I can find the forums I am usually OK. No computer geek, nit picker or mathematician here (like a lot of the SGOTM longwinded bloggers. "Just play for God's sake")- just a guy who wants to learn CIV4 as a fun game-not my life. As I stated: Just my 2 cents. :>)

 

[MarkM]

I have tried playing the last few GOTM's but find no incentive to submit my pittiful losses to the forum. I follow the SGOTM and am learning a lot- but just try and find it from the main page.

I don't think there will (or should) ever be "incentive" for you to submit a loss (or, many times, even an average win), I'm not sure what you are expecting?

Just consider the submissions/results mechanism to be a service provided to allow you to track your relative progress in skill over time, and/or against others, and that you submitting your game helps other people do the same. Try to shake this feeling that submitting a game should have some kind of reward attached to it.

 

[AlanH]

If you lose and don't submit, you get zero global ranking points.

If you lose and submit, you get some global ranking points.

That ought to be a small incentive to submit a loss.

The SGOTMs have a Progress and Results page on the main site, linked from the left and right borders on every page. From there you can link to any team's thread. SGOTMs also have their own forums here. Not very difficult to find, and you can track new posts in any forum using the site's RSS feeds.