Gotm21-Melee - Pregame Discussion

[CruddyLeper]

TheFounder: Go back to Page 1 of this Forum. On first post (Cracker) there is link "Game Announcement Page for the Gotm21-Mediteranean Melee".

At bottom of page there is link to either PTW or Civ1.29f.

You will need FULL DOWNLOAD if this is your first GOTM. Civ1.29f is 5 MB, PTW is 3.1MB.

As for which is better, which do you usually play? Stick with version you are used to. No difference between PTW 1.14f and 1.21f for SINGLE (not MULTI) play. I do not have PTW, so I stick to 1.29f.

Hope that is clear - and welcome to the GOTM

EDIT: Save game for GOTM21 not avilable for a day or so.

Don't forget to swap resource files! Check on other threads in this forum...

 

[TheFounder]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
TheFounder: Go back to Page 1 of this Forum. On first post (Cracker) there is link "Game Announcement Page for the Gotm21-Mediteranean Melee".

Thanks for this! I'm not beginner in Civilization world. Now I'm playing Deity games without any reloads and win in 3 of 5 absolute random maps. I don't know level of local players, but I will try to be in first places.

 

[CruddyLeper]

We will see, TheFounder. I like GOTM because it is a good training ground - and top "local players" are VERY GOOD INDEED...

Now, have a look at start position, think about early moves, read other posts... and then Post what you think best start strategy. That is the purpose of these "pregame" threads.

 

[Yndy]

The last two games I did not build a granary right away and that proved wrong. It seems that no matter how crowded the map we always have room to expand.

I will probably settle on location if the worker will not discover something spectacular. I’ll shoot right for Pottery and build a couple of warriors and a worker before starting on a granary. I’m going to experiment Ring City Placement big-time, it proved very powerful in my two test trials.

I plan to shoot for both the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus, but I suspect that many capitals would be on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea so that might be harder than usual. I will use some early galleys to find some strategic islands that might be there as well as to establish trade routes.

 

[ControlFreak]

Anyone catch the Discovery Channels "Spartans at the gates of fire" last night? What a great buildup to playing the Greeks.

The story (history) was about Leonides commanding 10,000 men at Thermopylae, defending a narrow pass between the sea and mountains against 2 million Persians for a few days.

In the end, a greek traitor told Xerxes about a path through the mountains that Leonides inexplicable left a handful of mercenaries to defend. 10,000 immortals were sent around the Greek front line and surrounded the Spartans, killing them all. The bright side was that the standoff gave the remaining Greece cities the time it needed to defend itself.

Anyone think we'll be pinned on the same continent with Persia on the other side of a choke point?

 

[scubagtr]

Alright, only one more day until we play !!!!!!

 

[feght]

Righto, I'm leaning toward the SirPleb way of doing things, with a rush at writing and mapmaking after hopefully buying pottery off a neighbour.
Without throwing all my eggs in one basket here, I have a gut feeling there aren't going to be that many Civs with access to certain resources. I'm going to hope we get iron, so I can fall back on the trusty old swordsman rush...

 

[rabies]

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Anyone catch the Discovery Channels "Spartans at the gates of fire" last night? What a great buildup to playing the Greeks.

I did! I agree with you 100% - after watching that, I am stoked to play as the greeks! Watch out Xerxes! On predator difficulty, you may out number me (just like at the battle of Thermopylae), but my spartans will chew your immortals up!

 

[mad-bax]

My worker will move to the lambs/sheep/wool whatever it is, and unless something special is revealed I will settle on the spot. It seems unlikely that a settler factory would be a very good idea in the start location, and I guess whether or not to develop the olives early will be a consideration. That said I will (probably) be building two (maybe 3) warriors then a settler.

If the map seems like an archipeligo I will leave the palace where it is and build a temple next for a 20k attempt. Otherwise I will not improve the capital and prepare another city for a free palace jump and use Davidsj(sp?) RCP idea.

I will use the 40 turn research path for writing then Lit. If its 20K I will get a library quick enough to get lit b4 the QSC limit (researching Lit in 38 or 39 turns even if I move the settler) depending on if and when I get the collossus. I will trade writing, but not Lit until I'm confident I can get the Great Library. This is not my usual style I have to say.

I disagree that the lighthouse will necessarily be that important. The amount of water on the map is very low so if its an island map then other islands should be reachable. Remember that the condition for the forst spoiler is that we must have the world map and all contacts. This leads me to suspect either a pangea or a closely formed archipeligo. Since a lot of trouble has been taken and discussion has surrounded naval movement, the title of this game being what it is, and the fact that the Celts game was pangea and the Spain map might as well have been for many players, I favour an archipeligo.

I think the map will be arid and the amount of jungle should be manageable. The Carthage game was a jungle bound archipeligo, and I don't see that happening again (for a while).

I'm wary of the new resources. I think they may just be a vehicle for building cities in desert and hills. I think that city placement will be really important.

Renata said the map didn't look promising for a 20k. I agree. But I've committed to it now, but I'm kinda wishing I hadn't.

 

[Ankka]

I've tried GOTM only once before, aand that was something like GOTM 12 or so...
I've never played Monarch before... Usually I play Warlord. I'll be playing Conquest class...

Any ideas?

Wizard

 

[simonsezz]

More a question post than new ideas as my head is spinning already with all of the conflicting possibilities from all the posts from better players than I.
Capital definitely doesn't look like a settler factory and the better players are talking about not building a granary and palace jumping so we'll need another coastal city for wonders plus an optimally placed palace jump city which may or may not be used in conjunction with RCP (meaning location is more important than any food or resource considerations i.e. probably no settler factory here either) plus we need some galleys, etc. etc.
So my question is this: How many cities do you feel you (especially the top players who may have a firm goal here)
expect to have at the end of the QSC period? 6, 8, or 12-14 like gotm20?

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by simonsezz
So my question is this: How many cities do you feel you (especially the top players who may have a firm goal here)
expect to have at the end of the QSC period? 6, 8, or 12-14 like gotm20?

This is a "How long is a piece of string" question really IMHO. I realised that I was becoming competent at the early game when I could comfortably build 10 cities in the QSC period, but it depends so much on the type of map and how crowded it is etc. that a rule of thumb would be dangerous. But now the number of cities is an almost secondary consideration for me. Now I think more of how many warriors I have to upgrade to swords, and do I have enough money for the upgrades, and many other considerations. Really, what I am doing is preparing for my first war by 1000BC if at all possible. It was being able to do that that changed me from a newbie to a regular player. Cracker talks about the "power" of a civ. It's this power that gives you the platform you need to enjoy the rest of the game, and the number of cities on its own is only part of the story.

I will now shove a couple of magazines down the back of my trousers and brace myself for the inevitable....

 

[hotrod0823]

Please explain the PTW/non-PTW differences about science. I missed that day in school A non-scientific Persia would be nice.

As far as I can tell cracker has edited the civ traits from scientific to something else without changing the starting tech but giving another trait (expanionist, commercial and industrious come to mind). This as far as I can tell is to eliminate the possibility of the PTW 1.21 players getting a boost from the free techs at the age change.

Under 1.29 and 1.14 the free techs were virtually always the same ~90-95% IIRC that the free techs would be Monotheism, Nationalism and Rocketry. On rare occasion you may see a different one. Under 1.21 the free tech is truely random. One player may get Feudalism while someone else may get engineering.

I think the changes are to make other civs - not necessarily Greece a bit different. Ottomans and Persians come to mind. They may still start with the Scienitific tech but will not get a free tech at the era change. This is to eliminate the decided advantage the 1.21 player may have over the 1.29 player. By having all 3 free techs more readily a possiblity you can open up a host of trading possiblities that may not be afforded the 1.29 player just because of the new changes that were implemented with the 1.21 patch.

Cracker in his GOTM19 writeup has so much as said that the scientific trait on the Ottoman's is incorrect and not historically accurate. I fully expect to see Ottoman scouts running around.

Posted by cracker it the GOTM19 write up:
The spectacular growth of the Ottomans in history originally hinged on two major phenomena:
1) the ability of nomadic people to unite and quickly ride into the older more settled territories of wealthy neighbors to capture, plunder, and enslave those resources, and
2) the skills and predisposition to tax, transport, and exchange the wealth and raw materials of the Orient to Europe in exchange for weapons, ships, and manufactured goods.

The normal controls and restrictions on despotic rule that were typically present in other civilizations would have balanced the power of the ruler with external religious restrictions or the rise of a necessary commercial or intellectual class. Under the Ottomans the state was never separate from Islamic control. Muslim scholars created centers for religious and literary teaching, but no real research in universities that might lead to military or social innovations, technological progress, or an independent economic renaissance was ever possible. The historic Ottoman empire was one the most unscientific and unproductive civilizations in written history and thrived only while it could maintain exclusive control over trade routes and exploit the resources of captured territory and position of exclusive facilitation of communication and exchange.

Enter the magic wand of the Firaxian history Gods and magically we now play the Ottomans as a Scientific and Industrious civilization capable of enlightened choice of government and task assignments beyond a virtual slave economy. You have the choice to repeat the history of the Ottoman Empire or to chart a new course.

Looks like cracker is righting a Firaxis wrong . My guess is that it is toss up wether they (the Ottoman's) will be commercial or expansionist to go with the industrious. It is more historically accurate to modify the Ottoman's than to drop in the American's.

Hotrod

 

[SirPleb]

I've changed my mind about something: Unless the first turn reveals some wonderful riches, I'm going to start by researching Writing at the 40 turn rate. (Not at maximum speed as originally planned.)

Based on the resources visible at the start my guess is that in 40 turns of 100% research we can only produce about 75 to 80 percent of the beakers required for Writing. (Assuming we build a settler as soon as possible.) So might as well research it at minimum and build up the treasury.

Also one detail to add to my previous notes: Unless the first turn reveals something better, I'll have my worker mine the lambs before roading them. Based on the tiles visible at the start this will make it possible to produce three warriors before starting a settler and still get the settler at turn 20.

 

[drewshark]

A couple of thoughts for GOTM 21 which I am very excited about.

1) I cannot stop thinking about the noticable and unfamiliar setup of a world with lots of Mountains and probably very few rivers. A lot of times we get used to the normal conditions of several river settling points in our early QSC period. There are a few thing that this signifies to me to be aware of'
a) Commerce will be quite a bit more difficult to amass in our treasury especially with the difficult to work tiles and a non-industrious civ. For this, I have to put the Colossus at the top of my early wonder building wish list.
b) Carrying out war in the early ages will most likely require the use of galleys and the surrounding terrian, which will be difficult to navigate and, most likely will include defensive bonuses for AI cities.
c) The increased shield production will probably be negated a bit by the squid, which I am sure will be aplenty and will require multiple galleys to distract them.
2) I think we will face some difficult decisions involving the hoplites. A hoplite fortified in a town with a defensive bonus will be basically as powerful a defender as a rifleman in most circumstances. While it is optimal to crank out offensive units, I feel we will be traveling through difficult territory making knight production (after horseman upgrades) very questionable given what may be many one movement turns.
3) Food production should be quite a bit less than usual. Those who can harness and reap the benefits of the bonus resources, (especially sea food eg. oysters, fish etc) will really be able to improve their population early. I think this will be very difficult and, therefore, I forsee a lot of size 6 cities early on as aquaduct production will take a backseat to military production and conquest.
4) I find it quite interesting that, as the only scientific civ, that space race victory, is the neccesary condition for the medal series. I have an inkling that our scientific bonus will be highly neccessary and we will need to balance out library/university builds and military prodution to increase our empires and commerce.

These are just a few things that I'm thinking about before the start of the game. As far as early movement, use of resources, I tend not to focus too much on them as ususally the decision is fairly obvious once we see the surrounding terrain and potential bonuses. I will be sure to grab food first to pump out some settlers as I'm not worried about shield production.

 

[Svar]

OK, I have tried this three times and get pretty much the same thing every time.

I'm practicing with the Greeks on random worlds as close to the starting conditions of Gotm21 as possible. The first two put me on islands isolated from my 11 AI rivals and by the time I got Map Making and galleys they were well ahead of me in techs.

I always started researching Pottery at the max science rate then going for Map Making at the minium because there wasn't any advantage trying to get Map Making any faster even with added cities.

There was fresh water in the first two but without contact with other Civs tech growth was painfully slow. Particularly tough was no temple building to increase cultural borders.

The last try was an engineered world that looked like the starting position with enough added space to get a 1000BC start. This world purposely had no fresh water and the result was the same as the two ranom worlds.

The result is I think that Cracker will make sure the we have some contact with other Civs so we don't get so far behind.

The one thing I have noticed in playing Gtom20 and my just finished Gotm19 is the starting position is much better than a randomly generated one.

By the way on my engineered world the SE, SE resource was cattle to simulate sheep (I used wheat for lambs and grapes for olives) and I went S so I could work all 4 bonus tiles from the starting city. My next city was on the coast to make galleys for the painfully slow Map Making.

 

[denyd]

A couple more thoughts:

1) Since the conquest players get to build galleys cheaper and the predators have additional challenges in using them, I've got to believe that they'll be a very important part of the game.

2) Since the new resources are mostly not for grassland or plains, I suspect lots of hills, mountains, desert & coastline, namely lots more of what you see in the opening screen shot.

3) With the Minoans a new Civ, they'll either be on the same island or next door. Their early UU and different traits will make them either a tough foe or a solid friend.

4) With the other AI's being engineered to be non-Science, we could become the tech/trading leader with agressive research and exploration.

5) The probable terrain will constrain growth, so finding fresh water and additional food sources will be a priority.

6) Resource & luxury monopolies seem probable, so grab all you can ASAP.

7) At monarch, happiness won't be as critical, so early warriors should be exploring not military police.

8) Since the first spoiler requires whole world knowledge, expect map trading and many early (pre-1000bc) contacts.


Just 8 hours til game release, see you in the spoilers

 

[CruddyLeper]

After further consideration, moving the worker west does seem to yield more warriors and and earlier settler than an early barracks. And given the rough early expansion area listed (each civ = 300 tiles?) an early barracks seems more a hindrance than a help.

Scratch my earlier ramblings - moving the worker west reveals more tiles and gets the early mining bonus as SirPleb noted.

I guess I'm just too hyped up for some early warfare... Maybe finding the other Civs before building the military mincing machine is a better strategy.

 

[Smirk]

I concur that there is something SE, SE but its not ivory. The elephant has a much rounder back and I am not familar enough with the new resources to guess what it is. I also see something W, NW, but can't guess what it is. All are gotten by settling where we stand.

My initial plan is to check that water, I assume its *not* fresh water since there are sea tiles present, but thats just a guess on my part. But getting fresh water to irrigation is going to be a early choice. With the +2f you could irrigate to get +3f on the lamb which is what I will do if I can. I'll actually get all those plains irrigated. I think I will try to get an early GA so those +1s plains will benefit, I'll try to do this while building the colossus or the lighthouse. I won't avoid using hoplites to avoid the GA this game with the hope that we will be land pressured by the large number of civs. Maybe some archer action, depends who my immediate neighbors are.

I don't think barracks will be a major choice, the hoplite is good enough and if this is a heavy ship based game I'll stick with 1 movement units much longer. I may try what I call an agressive defense, but that very much depends on what the land looks like.

Also if it does turn out that sea travel will be high getting an early harbor in the capital will be very useful, both for the sea squares (and the increased gold from my assumed production of the colossus). But this will be possible only if my second city or other can be a good replacement for settlers since the capital looks to be weak on that mark.

As for techs, I'm thinking Writing simply because I am assuming all or most of ther civs will go for Maps.

 

[jeffelammar]

I just had a thought that might be an interesting difference in this game.

How will the AI react to the new resources. It seems to me that the goats could cause the AI to waste lots of time improving mountains when there are more efficient uses of time.

My understanding is that the AI looks to improve the most powerful available square, and Goats change the whole mountain dynamic.

Anyone have ideas on this.