GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

[AlanH]

I agree we have lots going for us. I'm not so sure about Republic being a net plus, though. That would absorb a lot of unit support costs as well as requiring higher lux tax to counter war weariness, and I don't see it generating enough extra income to compensate. When you revolt to Republic, I think war weariness immediately hits the level you would have reached if you had been in Republic throughout the war, so it could be very painful in this case, as we have been at war for at least 50 turns.

I don't normally switch to Republic until I have a significant number of markets to generate cash and to keep the people happy.

The PTW team have been playing maybe twice as fast as us, and I think they expect to be finished in a day or so. I've no idea what date they have reached.

I've checked in my Mac GOTM25 installer. It's nearly 1:00 am, though, so although I might be able to complete the turns I can't see myself writing it up. Think I'll go at it fresh on Saturday.

@Keath: i think we had mostof those swords in the area when I last played, and more were on the way. We also had maybe three or four horses, with at least three more on the way. That was twenty turns ago, so I can't see why it would be difficult to get the stack together that's there now.

Happy Halloween.

 

[smackster]

The good thing about an SG is that we have time to think about and discuss the Republic switch. The only civ we have war weariness against is Rome and they will eventually be gone and the war weariness associated with them gone.

Being Religious if we agree we can certainly try it when the dynamics are right, and analyse the net effect. Then switch back if really bad. If for the sake of what we'll learn its only two turns lost.

We should discuss this again around the time that we defeat Rome.

We should also discuss when we break our rep as that will speed up the game. Not sure that we really need any trades anymore. Initially I'm just suggesting when Rome is down to say 3-4 cities (after Rome) we declare peace for as many cities as we can get and go back to war immediately. We can basically just keep doing this and will save having to capture the small outlying cities.

We also have one chance for a ROP rape, but leave that until we need it or it doesn't matter.

 

[AlanH]

Sounds reasonable. I thought ROP Rape was outlawed in the GOTM rules of engagement.

 

[smackster]

No its allowed because there are consequences, such as your reputation is totally broken, so any GPT type trades or ROP deals are over. Also the AI does do it all the time.

 

[smackster]

AlanH, AlanH
he's the bravest of the brave
AlanH, AlanH
where is that game .save

I'm concerned that the reason you have not posted is because our stack of 16 crumbled on the walls of Rome. Please tell me at least that we took Rome.

 

[AlanH]

I just surfaced after the longest ten turns I've ever played. I hadn't appreciated the extra pressure to make every move count in an SG!

OK, finally, here you go ...

In summary:

Turn 1 260 AD
Sold peace to India for 25 gold + wmap.
Sold peace to Egypt for 20 gold.
Built Yamama on souther lake.

Turn 2 270 AD

Our horsemen took Rome with the loss of one horseman. Yay!

Caesar only offers a couple of small villages for peace. No deal.

Turn 3 280 AD
Moved our swords towards Veii.

IBT: Forbidden Palace complete in Madinah.

Turn 4 290 AD
Moved forces to the gates of Veii.

Turn 5 300 AD
Uthman arrives in Rome to a triumphal civic reception. Ticker tape, or its medieval equivalent in the form of small tablets of stone, was hurled and much wine was consumed. The morning after, they built a Palace. Just like that!

Our swords took Veii. Two swords and one horseman perished.

Accelarated the research. Chivalry due in 9 turns.
Renegotiated peace and the alliance vs. Zululand with Spain. Instead of paying 5 gpt we get 14 gold and a worker, oh, and another damned map.

France has learnt Theology, but doesn't think peace is worth it.

Turn 6 310 AD
Corruption is reduced from 79 gpt before to 52 gpt now. Chivalry is now due in 6 turns.

We take Cumae with the loss of one horseman.

Rome now has Theology, and will give it plus a small town for peace. I'm not enthusiastic. I'll let Smackster to the deal-breaking.
Build Bukhara.
Egypt has Theology as well now.

Turn 7 320 AD
Two vet horsemen take Pisae with no losses,

but we lose one horse killing a spear escorting a settler.

Egypt and Persia have settler pairs wandering around. I guess the central southern region is the only spare land left now.

Turn 8 330 AD
We take Viroconium with one horseman lost and one promoted to elite.

Turn 9 340 AD
Stack moves towards Pompeii. Continue build-up on the Persian border.
I still can't bring myself to sign peace with Rome. They stubbornly refuse to give us real cities. We could get Theology, but it's not a lot of use as we can't wap it for anything we want.
Chivalry is now due in 2 turns.

Turn 10 350 AD
Our stack takes Pompeii with nothing to spare, but no losses.

Status:

We have taken 6 Roman cities [EDITED - I originally wrote 5]. Pompeii is garrisoned by a single wounded horseman, and there's a solitary Roman archer at the gates, so it will probably fall between turns. But we have sufficient troops available to take it back from a single, probably-wounded archer.

We have a couple of settlers en route. One is standing on a suitable site on the edge of the desert. The other could go anywhere, but I was planning to fill a gap to the west of Rome in its first ring.

We probably have enough horses and swords to make a mess of the Persians, but I figured it would be much tidier if we started it with Cataphracts. The horses are all garrisoned in the northern cities, and we will need a couple of rushed barracks to enable the upgrades.

Watch out for a stray Persian horse in the mountains south of Madinah. We have an undefended city he can reach in two turns, so some defensive moves are required to head him off before we start hurling insults at Xerxes. I have a horse moving that way from the west. There's also a French settler pair in the mountains between us and Persia. Easy pickings when they come down to sea level, and there's a Persian settler pair marooned in the middle of our eastern desert. I expanded a city and wiped out a lot of neutral territory they had their eye on.

I've turned the science slider down to minimum for Chivalry next turn. As soon as we have that you can turn science down to zero, use a scientist to keep it ticking over, and you'll have 100-ish gpt for upgrading the 30 horses we now possess. Have fun, and try to spend it all at once

Here's the save

Here's a minimap and headcount ...

 

[AlanH]

And the roster:

AlanH
Smackster (playing, I imagine!)
Karasu (on deck)
MacBaldrick
Alweth

 

[smackster]

SG23 350AD

Quick diplomatic survey tells me that we can trade with Egypt and I don't believe we plan to attack them for a while. Trying to get every inch I trade spices for Chivalry, 26GP and and fantastic looking map, I'm sure they must have copied ours. So I rack up the slider this turn to 10.0.0 and get +140GPT.

IBT Madinah complete marketplace->Cataphract (oh yea baby), Pompeii is taken but an elite sword takes it right back.

T1 360AD


Kill the french spear, catpure the settler. Tell Persia to get of our land. Take back Pompeii.

T2 370AD

Allepo formed.

T3 380AD

Lose two horses (one elite) and one vet sword attacking weak spears in Ravena. Roman archer dropped of Galley next to Kurasn, not enough defence in range.
Building attack for Neopilis but only 6 troops, don't want to wait will go in. Rome still wont give cities. Trade wines with Egypt, 6GPT, 67GP, WP.

T4 390AD

Rome take Khurasan, and burn it to the ground. We have a settler there and build it right back after killing archer.
Attack Ravena again, and elite horse retreats (without loss on defender) and elite sword dies (one hp loss on defeder).
Attack Peopiliss, horse dies, horse retreats. Eventually get it down to one hp spear, elite sword attacks and this happens.....

Mu'awiya emerges

The Scourge of Rome is victorious.

"The Romans would, according to custom, scourge a condemned criminal. The Roman scourge, also called the "flagrum" or "flagellum" was a short whip made of two or three leather (ox-hide) thongs or ropes connected to a handle as in the sketch above. The leather thongs were knotted with a number of small pieces of metal, usually zinc and iron, attached at various intervals. According to history the punishment of a slave was particularly dreadful. The leather was knotted with bones, or heavy indented pieces of bronze. "

Now we take the peace from Rome for Ravena and Lugdunum. That leaves them left with only one city that we intend to take. Our reputation will be less than good, not as bad as a ROP brake but it really will help us in the long run, now we can destroy Rome easily.

I think for some time about what to do with Mu'awiya, there are really only two options, Sun Tzu or Army. The Army only so that we can get Herioc Epic and generate more leaders, but I decide on Sun Tzu as this is the most important wonder for us, to be able to get barracks right away in distant captured cities is too much to miss.

Find ourselves at war with Ottoman, they were not at war with us last turn, guess they didn't like the peace with Rome. Didn't even realise we had an alliance.

T5 400AD

Persia horse charges through our territory, tell them to go again, they declare war. Sorry guys but the only defence near is the Cataphract, and that has to kill it or risk losing a core city. We enter our Golden Age. +254 GPT.

Sun Tzu is rushed in Rome. I think Persia may not live to regret this action. They probably declared war because of our reputation break (sorry).

T6 410AD

We now have barracks in all cities, 18 horses are upgraded to Cataphract. Even Makkah is switched to Cataphract for the Golden age period.

Bactra destroyed. Cataphracts gather.

Now up to +336GPT.

T7 420AD

Pasargdae taken. Samaria destroyed. Anitoch taken. Yes Cataphract move fast. Shiraz formed.
Spices for 10GPT to Egypt.

T8 430AD

Inidans are all over Antioch, we'll ignore them for now.

Declare war with Rome, have to get rid of that last city. Then I notice the attack is over the river, but the first Cataphract attack succeeds against the elite spear with 1hp left.
Next attack, Rome is gone, all their troops (and there where lots of them) all disapear. Reputation, what reputation.

Capture Perian capital Persepolis we now have Great Wall but who cares, capture Sidon.

T9 440AD

Indians may be actually going over to France, with one turn left in our alliance, maybe not.

Sardis captured, Tarsus taken,
Izmit captured, Aydin captured, Otto destroyed.

T10 450AD

Gordium captured, Arbela captured, super spearman kills two Cata, but the third takes it.

Summary

Only one Persian city to take, the northern forces may need to be grouped to attack the next civ. All the alliances are either over or about to finish, check the dip screens to see this. Inida don't have Chivalry still, so may be an easy target. Look in Fez next to Carthage there are 7 Cataphracts waiting for attack orders, plus two others to the south, we have already cultured their iron out of them. I put Madinah on a Cathedral as it was on 29 shields per turn, needed 30 to get Cata in 2 and on 29 we wasted 26 every three turn, so switched to cath. Maybe we should trade for Theology and start the Sistine Chapel with it. We don't need the Cathedral.

As we don't really have anything left to upgrade I put science on 20% so that we would at least get Invention a little sooner.

.zip

 

[AlanH]

Go Arabs!

Well played Smackster. What a warmonger! Two civs consigned to history in one stint and a third about to join them? I love it when you can get all the leaders on the F4 screen

The Egyptians must have just completed or purchased Chivalry, I didn't even look at the diplo screens at turn 10. (a) I wasn't supposed to do anything and (b) I was just relieved to reach the hand-over point and start the write-up. I've often bought a tech on my last research turn, it's usually dirt cheap and you either get an early start on your next project or, as you did, a cash windfall.

Pity about Khurasan. Sorry about the low defences in the south .

Excellent timing on the leader and good decision on Sun Tzu. Those barracks are just what the doctor ordered. There were a lot of civs going for it, and only two are building the Sistine now, so there was no cascade. That must have resulted in a few very expensive buildings

Don't you just those cataphracts? That is one fast, mean species at this stage in the game. The RNG still manages to screw them up sometimes, though. We just need to keep them busy during the time between now and gunpowder/muskets.

I agree that India looks like a good next target. We need to shut them down before they get Chivalry and too many elephants start charging around. I think we have a big enough drop on them not to worry too much, though. Our cataphracts, 38 and counting, should be enough to destroy anything they can build, and I don't think they can upgrade anything to a jumbo, can they? Carthage or Egypt might decide to commit suicide anyway, so it would be a good idea to maintain a counter-attack force in the south/west, and maybe upgrade a few spears to pikes in case of a sneak attack. [Edit: Whoops - sorry they are all upgraded ]

I've run JMapstat on the 450 AD save, and we are well over half way to territory domination. We need 900 more tiles, and the remaining civs have about 100 or 200 each. The good news is that there are over 800 unclaimed tiles somewhere, so we should probably keep the settler pump churning, and maybe build a galley or two? . To do it purely by conquest we need to wipe out all the civs and occupy all their current territory.

I'm sorry, I forgot to name a city in memory of Smackster's Revenge. Next captured city, Karasu?

[EDIT - PS] Karasu: Check F1. Baghdad and Antium are about to revolt, and there's some starving to do in a couple of resisting towns.

PPS: Just noticed that we haven't sold our hand built barracks in Iznik, and I suspect this applies to granaries and barracks elsewhere. I didn't sell the granaries at the time we took Rome as I didn't want to risk a counter-attack. No chance of that now So there's some more gold to be had, and it may reduce maintenance.

The roster:

AlanH
Smackster
Karasu (next up - 24 hours to get it)
MacBaldrick (on deck)
Alweth

 

[Karasu]

Got it.
I have a meeting now, will try to post some comments later on.

 

[smackster]

The Cataphract movement really does enable you to attack far off cities in one turn. One of the Persian cities I took was three deep in their territory, I had three Cataphract actually three squares deep in our territory. First two moves on road took the Cataphract to the edge of their territory, third move was one square inside (actually the first full move for the Cataphract), second move was next to city, third move was to attack the city. City fell that turn. In this case I was just trying to position them for an attack next turn and found that I could take it in one.

I do think we should use the Cataphract force next to Carthage (look in Fez), there are already 9 in position if I remember rightly, and we have already taken their iron. Although their defenders have 3 strength with our retreat ability this force should be enough. I was actually ready to launch the attack before my turn ended but thought I'd let the next player decide.

Smackster.

 

[Karasu]

I am a bit in doubt between Carthage and Egypt right now.

I had a stupid awful "technical meeting" today, with everyone feeling free to jump into the project after the critical design review and to make the most idiotic comments on the design of units that are presently being manufactured.

I spent the whole meeting thinking of cruel ways to eliminate every single person in the room...


Anyway, sorry for the OT digression.
I couldn't check the save, of course. By looking at the map I was thinking to send about 50-60% of our forces towards India, and the rest on Carthage / Egypt (keeping an eye on counterattacks or sneak-attacks, of course).

Attacking Carthage would put us in a nice position to procees on Zulus, Egypt, Spain and France quite nicely.
Egypt on the other hand is colonizing our southern lands, and taking those cities may allow us to send a flow of settlers more safely in that area.

Other than that, how is our reputation looking? I'd like it if we RoP-raped someone (I've never done it...) to close the game sooner :devil2:

 

[smackster]

First question we should ask ourselves is whether we all agree that we should do the ROP rape. Its a one time activity as once we done it most GPT type trades will be impossibe. The AI will still pay us for our resurces and lux's etc, and as we don't really need any tech from them its no problem. But morally some people don't like to do this, I'm playing a game so don't mind doing it.

In my opinion the best use of ROP rape is to take over the civ with the most distant mountainous terrain. In this game France is probably the best candidate as there are a lot of mountains/hills to get through. Consider if we declared war now, how long it would take even the Cataphract to get to their most distant city. However, if we sign a ROP and use their roads to get to the NW of their land then we sweep down taking their cities, when we finish our troops would be in position to take Spain.

So after (or before) we finish Persia, we should attack Carthage with 9 Cataphract in place. The rest of the troops attack India. Once both of them are secure. Sign ROP with France and move them into place, depending on how many Cata we have by then move another force to the south next to Egypt. Don't bother waiting until the trades expire, and attack them. Hmmm how about a double ROP rape?

Spain then is left if we need more space. But don't wipe them out.

Note the domination limit includes coastal squares, meaning that you should not be afraid to settle right on the coast, and start building a temple. We can then selectively rush some of the temples, but a totally corupt town will still give us a temple in 30 turns so we don't have to rush them until 30 turns before we think we can end. Actually 30 + 5 for culture growth. If this email does not make sense then please send questions on a post card to Santa.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Karasu
I spent the whole meeting thinking of cruel ways to eliminate every single person in the room...

Our Cataphracts will probably take out a contract on them!

I couldn't check the save, of course. By looking at the map I was thinking to send about 50-60% of our forces towards India, and the rest on Carthage / Egypt (keeping an eye on counterattacks or sneak-attacks, of course).

Attacking Carthage would put us in a nice position to procees on Zulus, Egypt, Spain and France quite nicely.
Egypt on the other hand is colonizing our southern lands, and taking those cities may allow us to send a flow of settlers more safely in that area.

We're spoilt for choice right now. We could just let Egypt settle the south, wait until we have taken out Carthage, and then take over the Egyptian cities when they've grown to 2 or more. It will give us shorter travelling times to the Egyptian core., and reduces the number of settlers we have to build. Taking Egypt first would leave us with a very long border to defend/attack across, with Carthage and Zululand as enemies. Carthage first keeps the border a bit shorter, I think.

I think we could wipe out Carthage quite fast, and maybe deal with India at the same time, then go for Egypt, Spain, Zulus and a final showdown with France. During this we want to avoid a Conquest victory, so we need to leave at least one foreign city alive.

Other than that, how is our reputation looking? I'd like it if we RoP-raped someone (I've never done it...) to close the game sooner :devil2:

Rep? What rep! I think Smackster removed that small consideration by making peace with Rome and then destroying them. I don't think we are going to need any gpt deals anyway, so it's not an issue any more. We could use ROP rape to stitch up Carthage a little faster. But ROP rape is mainly a way to get our attackers into position fast, and with Cataphracts we can do that pretty well anyway as Smackster has described.

 

[smackster]

Actually what you say is a good point, having broken our rep with Rome and Otto, can we still get a ROP with France. I did not ROP rape Rome, just broke the alliance and I think there is a big difference. Will have to check later on.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster
First question we should ask ourselves is whether we all agree that we should do the ROP rape. Its a one time activity as once we done it most GPT type trades will be impossibe. The AI will still pay us for our resurces and lux's etc, and as we don't really need any tech from them its no problem. But morally some people don't like to do this, I'm playing a game so don't mind doing it.

The main reason ROP rape is a one-time deal is that no one will sign a ROP with us after we've done it, so we can only do it once.
I don't feel strongly about it is it's allowed by the GOTM rules. This isn't RL, so morals don't come into it.

In my opinion the best use of ROP rape is to take over the civ with the most distant mountainous terrain. In this game France is probably the best candidate ...

That's a plan, and you're right, we really ought to get to France before they start producing musketeers.

Hmmm how about a double ROP rape?

That's one way to make it work twice! If you're going to do it, you might as well do it thoroughly.

Spain then is left if we need more space. But don't wipe them out.

... and the Zulus. We'll have to take them all down to near zero to reach domination unless we can find more space. Check my post above on MapStat - there's enough unclaimed land about somewhere to allow us to reach territory domination with one more big civ under our belts, but remember we also need 2/3 of world pop.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster
Actually what you say is a good point, having broken our rep with Rome and Otto, can we still get a ROP with France. I did not ROP rape Rome, just broke the alliance and I think there is a big difference. Will have to check later on.

I don't think ROP rape is a separate crime as seen by the AI. It's a breach of a 20 turn deal and a declaration of war while in the opponent's territory. Did you redeclare while you were in Rome? I don't know whether we'll get a ROP deal now, but I'm guessing we can if we pay up front.

 

[smackster]

No I was not in their territory when I declared. In my opinion there are different levels of rep, its easy to find out see if anyone will sign ROP with us right now.

 

[AlanH]

... our trusty trade adviser informs me that we could have a ROP deal with Egypt for free - they'd probably pay us for it. But they will not take any amount of gpt for anything we can take away up front, not even their world map.

So our rep is trashed, but we can have a ROP.

 

[Alweth]

Well, I'm back and it looks like you guys have made great progress while I was gone.

Karasu, don't worry about making me miss my turn--there's no point in playing a succession game if you have to rush in order to let the other people play. Watching what happens is about as fun as playing, for me, so I'm willing to miss out on a turn and just wait for it to come around again.