GOTM87 - Spoiler #2

[civ_steve]

GOTM 87 - second spoiler, The Middle Ages

Reading Requirements:

1. Must have contact with All remaining Civs.
2. Must be able to research an Industrial Age Technology.

Posting restrictions

1. No maps showing Industrial or Modern resources.
2. No discussion of Industrial Age (or later).
3. Absolutely NO Discussion of any other active 'X'OTM contest!

OK, Ottomans ... Sipahi ... are they really necessary? (For you warmongers out there.) Any problems with the first continent? Any off-shore AI trying to rise to the challenge?

 

[tR1cKy]

predator, another science run - it took a while to decide what to do

link to AA spoiler

A science run seems the most interesting challenge, because of its ramifications. We plan to relocate the capital around Tenochtitlan and arrange the cities around into a ring at distance 5.5 from it. As simple as it sounds, the task is far from being trivial. First, we have to assimilate both the Zulu and the Aztecs, and we have to be quick because after the capture there will be a lot of improvement work to do and if we are late the whole thing wouldn't be worth the effort.

But at the same time we do not have to be *too* quick. Tenochtitlan is building the Great Library and it's better wait to have the Aztecs either complete it or be beaten and turn to another wonder that is likely to be the Great Wall. Seizing that wonder will turn the golden age problem into a no-brainer - all it takes is to time correctly the prebuild for Newton and we'll have the golden age when it needs most: at the dawn of the Industrials.

The military campaign itself won't be that straightforward. The forces available will be limited (we'll have to spend the most into improvements) and we won't have anything stronger than horsemen until some AS decides to research Chivalry.

---

We left the Ancient Ages while in the middle of the Zulu campaign. Poor Shaka is unable to offer any meaningful resistance and we seize our objectives with almost no losses. Gem city is owned and relocated, then the Zulu are given peace in return for a size 1 settlement, and left to play OCC in the north-western peninsula for another 20 turns.

Research goes the usual way, with Engineering followed by Invention. Meanwhile, we complete the Forbidden Palace and the Great Lighthouse. Galleys can finally sail the seas safely and reach the lands oversea. The AS there are in such a sorry state that we almost regret to be pursuing science - at least we are lucky with the Greek MA pick (Monotheism), but as the game goes on nobody is able to research Theology and Education, so we have to go for them ourselves.

In 230 BC, the Arab city of Mecca completes the Great Library and the production of Tenochtitlan turns into... nothing. The damn Aztecs were building the Great Wall elsewhere and Monarchy is still unknown, so there's nothing left for them At this point, there's no reason to wait any more and we start the invasion. Tenochtitlan is taken and the 1st great leader comes almost immediately. Monarchy is bought in the same turn and the leader is spent into the Hanging Gardens - golden age problem solved.

The campaign is easy at first, the only Aztecs forces we meet are jags, archer and defensive spears. But soon after swordsmen start popping out from the iron city and we begin to take losses. Luckily, the 2nd leader comes out by the time the AS have researched Chivalry, so we can rush Sun Tzu and upgrade quickly some horses into knights. Any problem seems solved now, but the Arabs decide to complicate things and sneak-attack us in Tenochtitlan. The defending knight survives against the invading ansar, so a major setback is avoided. But the ansars are a real pain, and the Aztecs are building medinfs and pukemen now, so we start taking casualties - again.

The end of the campaign is almost a thriller. The aztecs are down to 3 cities when stumble into a SOUR and our attack to the city NE is repealed. We capture it the next turn, but a second SOUR causes us to fail badly again at the western city. It is captured next turn, with the last knight reduced to 2/5, but we spot an ansar on the mountain nearby. We manage to sign peace with the Arabs and start the attack on the final city, but things aren't over yet. A third SOUR hits, and we collect another disastrous failure!

Luckily, the bad luck seems over. Next turn we capture the last Aztec city and collect the 3rd leader, that is kept spare for the future capital jump. The city is moved, two more cities are founded to complete the circle and our massive force of workers can improve the land undisturbed.

Research went pretty fast through the whole Middle Ages. We got only one tech (Metallurgy) from the AS, yet we're able to hit the Industrials in 290 AD. The scientific trait gives us Nationalism, but once again the Greeks help us by picking Steam Power. All the AS except for Arabia are gifted into tech parity. Golden Age is about to start, as we're 1 turn from completing Newton in our FP city.

The Industrial Ages may still be bringing a pair of surprises. The most developed country is France, that has a record of behaving unexpectably, sometimes. Giving the vast amount of work still to be done around the new core i may choose to go for an unconventional path (Electricity -> Rep. Parts) hoping for the AS to research something else.

Here's the tech log of the MA:

_750bc: Feudalism (scientific trait);
_590bc: Engineering (research);
_530bc: Monotheism (trade, Greece);
_470bc: Invention (research);
_350bc: Gunpowder (research);
_230bc: Chemistry (research);
__90bc: Chivalry (trade, France);
__70bc: Education (research);
__10ad: Astronomy (research);
__90ad: Physics (research);
_170ad: Gravity (research); Metallurgy (trade, France);
_250ad: Magnetism (research);
_290ad: Banking (research); Nationalism (scientific trait); Steam Power (trade, Greece);

And here's a shot of our empire around our future capital:

 

[Più Freddo]

as the game goes on nobody is able to research Theology and Education, so we have to go for them ourselves.

Wouldn't you normally research these yourself in a science game, and hope for the AS to research Invention for you in the mean time?

Tenochtitlan is taken and the 1st great leader comes almost immediately

No one knows if that was a disappointment or a relief for Tenochtitlan, but maybe the 1st great leader can practice some Kama Sutra until next time.

 

[tR1cKy]

Actually no, i always go for Invention -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry and usually get at least Theology from the AS.

Oh, the great leader has its problems to deal with, let's not make fun of them please, it's not nice at all

 

[Più Freddo]

Actually no, i always go for Invention -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry and usually get at least Theology from the AS.

What is the advantage over getting Universities sooner and perhaps building Copernicus'? I realize that it could work on higher levels, but this was Monarch.

Would you then not gift all AI Engineering, as you would in order for them to research Invention etc.?

 

[tR1cKy]

Well, this is right... in theory.

In practice, i've never found myself into a situation in which i build universities that early.

In terms of added research, universities are the same as libraries, but with 2.5x of the cost and 2x of manteinance, not really worth it until your cities grow big enough and produce enough outcome. And this leads to another problem to be addressed first: unhappiness.

So i end up building other stuff first, tipically markets and aqueducts, because the cities have to grow big enough without going into disorder, have to pay back the cost of manteinance and, usually, have to pay their share of military upkeep.

Of course, the military buildup is another thing that gets the priority, because there's always some territory to be grabbed from enemies, to grow big enough (and produce more research), to seize luxuries and to get a decent spot for a new core around a new capital.

At the end, it's a matter of keeping things balanced. Building universities too early is a burden instead of an asset. Overbuilding may let you go broke, same story for an excessive military, and if unhappiness is not addressed you have to spend too much on the luxury slider. All those things impact negatively on your ability to research fast.

Copernicus is pretty much the same stuff. Although it has no manteinance, you have to prebuild it, spend shields on it, and in the early medievals those shields are usually better spent on an aqueduct, a marketplace or some offensive units.

It may sound strange, but aqueducts, markets and military units are often the best scientific improvements

 

[Più Freddo]

It may sound strange, but aqueducts, markets and military units are often the best scientific improvements

Of course I concur to this, ecpecially in PTW where you can get a second Core.

But you don't really gain an advantage for this strategy from Invention, Gunpowder and Chemistry unless you actually go for Military Tradition, which I would in most science games consider a waste of four turns of research. So it all comes down to which Technology the AI might research for you, Theology or Invention.

And perhaps the possibility to build a single University in the Capital or some other Super Science City, where it might actually pay off even at an early stage.

 

[PaperBeetle]

And if your universities only cost 100 shields...

Well I always take the top branch in a research game, if only because there is nothing of interest on the bottom branch. Also, while they are hard to verify in actual gameplay, Ambiorix's calculations of AI research probabilities suggest that they favour Invention and Gunpowder over the likes of Theology and Education. So if one could get Engineering into their hands, one should be able to rely on them to make a start on the bottom branch. Never seems to work out in practice of coure.

 

[tR1cKy]

mhh... yes, if the 1st row of techs is known the 2 path are actually equivalent... but i still have a preference for the lower one.

That's because if you choose the upper sequence you leave more unwanted paths open for the AS - they may end up wasting turns into researching Printing Press, Music Theory and Economics.

About this:

And perhaps the possibility to build a single University in the Capital or some other Super Science City, where it might actually pay off even at an early stage.

It may happen, sometimes, but of course i'm talking about a general rule... one must always judge the particular situation.

If, by example, my free pick was Monotheism, the obvious choice would have been Theology, the only tech that could not be obtained by the other scientific civ (Greece).

But i got Feudalism, so i had to choose between 2 techs that could have been obtained by Greece. I picked Engineering because of its usefulness (rivers).

Once it was completed, the AS oversea were still unknown (all the suicide attempts had sunk before making contact) so at this point the choice was between a tech that had to be researched for sure (Invention) and one that could also be picked for free (Monotheism). The best path is Invention then.

EDIT: PB: couriously, for me it works (not always)

 

[Più Freddo]

I tried to make a spread-sheet comparison between military units and city improvements in a science game in terms of extra beakers per turn per shield. I haven't got time to finish it now, but a few intuitive ideas were supported by my first results:

• Military units pay off a lot more as long as you are paying maintenance for them, since captured cities both decreases maintenance and contribute beakers
• A city must produce around 40 beakers per turn for a 200-shield University to pay off better than Knights in a typical early Middle Ages setting with unit maintenance

 

[Kulko]

Hmm I would really be interested in that spreadsheet.

 

[Più Freddo]

OK, here it is, in its present state.

 

[Lanzelot]

• A city must produce around 40 beakers per turn for a 200-shield University to pay off better than Knights in a typical early Middle Ages setting with unit maintenance

Is that true?! In that case I need to correct my research strategy quite a bit... I usually build Universities, when a city has 15-21 bpt (10-14 base research plus 5-7 from Library).

However, two points should also be taken into account here (mostly on higher difficulty levels):

1. If the city still has potential for growth (i.e. it will later get to 40bpt), it might be ok to build the University earlier. It'll be needed later anyway, and the earlier we have it, the earlier it will reach the break-even point for the invested shields. (Plus more culture, which might be important sometimes, too.)
2. If there's no easy target for your Knights (all neighbors are fortified with pikes or even muskets), the Knights may have so heavy losses, that they don't pay off.

Lanzelot

 

[Più Freddo]

If the city still has potential for growth (i.e. it will later get to 40bpt), it might be ok to build the University earlier

This is the kind of thing which I didn't have time to put into the spread-sheet yet.

If there's no easy target for your Knights

Of course. That's why I said "typical". Because typically, Horsemen and Knights rule.