GR13 - AWE on LK's world map

[Greebley]

My hope is that we'd start the attack on Karakorum with seven or eight full-strength armies adjacent to the city, and then take it in one turn, making second or third attacks with armies as necessary, though ideally not too many. I don't like the idea of a long process in which we wait and heal as the AI rushes new defenders.

With the knight army now around This heading for the choke, we can even put three knight armies into the new expeditionary force bound for Karakorum, rather than two, if we want. This would require more passive blocking of the choke with sword armies, and less actual killing of enemies, but I think we could get away with it.

That works if we have sufficient armies compared to defenders. I guess we can try the attack and if we still have armies with decent HP we can decide if we want to continue the attack. Taking it in one round would be nice if it can be done. I am unsure how many defenders to expect. If it is as high as 12 it may not work.

 

[markh]

Maybe a stupid question, but what radius around Karakorum will we pillage before attacking ? We are in the middle of the Mongol empire, so the city radius of the taken city will be like a new city. Cavalry will easily hit it, although I think that all possible units are gone towards our border, so 5 or 6 armies should hold for a turn. Is it worth pillaging at all in this scenario ?

 

[vmxa]

I do not have the save up, but ideally you would like to cut enough roads so a 3 move unit cannot reach you in one turn.

This may be done with less than 3 tiles in all directions, IF terrain allows. Hills, mountains and others. The issue for me will be how many tiles and how many turns will I need to cut them all.

It may be that it can be done in one or two turns and is worth it. It may be that many of the tiles are blocked by unts and they cannot be killed without risking exposure. I just do not know right now.

 

[Greebley]

Note that you can keep some road and still have Cavalry take 3 to get to you. You just don't want 2 in a row. Cut at distance 3 I believe is all that is needed (for plains. Moving into and out of the cut area is 2 movement and moving into our lands is the last move.

We have at least one knight army that is hanging around for several turns and there is mountains and hills as welll so we don't need to cut in every direction.

 

[ThERat]

another option would be to block Karakorum with our armies os nobody can attack. we would need 8 healed armies for that

 

[vmxa]

I am not so sure we can count on them not attacking sword armies, even at full health. Sometimes the will attack them with cavs.

 

[vmxa]

Ok, i just started and want to post this Pre in case anyone wants to chime in or be up to date.

Pre:
Wake up two cats at Katsina and ping Russian frigates.
Switched Sebennytus from a CH to an aqua. It has a harbor and can grow.
Wake some cats at New El-Ash to redline a Zulu galley.

"The two native workers next to Kahun (and probably others later) should be merged into the city. This town is too strong to be left to rely on its own slow population growth."

I agree it needs to grow, but I would like to get one of the workers to do some work there, such as roading the forest and cutting the jungle and minning the hill.

If we cut all roads to Karakorum, that will raise cane for Temujin as they must have lots of deals now. Looks like we are not all that far from doing that.

Depending upon the timing of the attack, I would say we should expect at least 10 units in Kar. If we cannot take that many down, we have to have more forces. I would not want to go in hoping to find less than 8, that is just too optimistic. So I think the 4 sword armies and 3 knight armies is minimum.

I would think that is probably not enough to take an hold for even 1 turn, unless no one can counter. They will be rifles and cav, with more rifles I am sure. Not a sure bet for a Sword army.

I will see if I can cut off the improvements to strave them some and park on the wheat till I can get all the troops to bear. It would be nice to be able to get them down to size 6, but I doubt it.

Maybe some attacks to soften them up while the rest come along. The good news is that we can get steam for sure by then.

 

[vmxa]

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR13_AD1350.SAV

 

[vmxa]

IBT:
Hear from France. Not now.
A privateer sinks the reline Zulu galley after it dropped off a Kesh.
Another one sinks a Bab galley.
Create 1 Knight and 1 Treb, man that is not much production.

1305AD:
Reline the Kesh and 8th kills it. Redline one of the Privateers. (1-0)
Redline a French frigate at Walata.
Found New Buhen and start a worker, it can be changed. I am thinking that Steam is hopefully ours soon.
New Alexandria, I find a worker irrigating a mine, while the town is at size 6 with the ability to generate 24 food already. Switch to a market as it has a joker. I switch it to a taxman for now.
Found New Bubastis
Found New This and started a LB to act as an MP as it is the cheapest we can make.
Cats go 1 for 3 on Persian frigate at New Kahun.
Send out 2 knight armies.
Helio needs a taxman. We cannot lower the research with another beakerhead.
Asyut also needs one.
[1-0]

IBT:
Zulu galley sinks an attacking privateer.
LB attacks the 2nd and it is quite yellow now and is at risk (1-0).
MDI attacks 15th (2-0).
I suspect these are just due to the NoAiPatrol, but that is not good at this juncture.
We make 3 knights and 2 trebs. [3-0]
Persian start Bach and Fr start Newtons.

1310AD:
Goa needs a spec. Switch from CH to market as it is making 4 shields, lossing 2. It will have to use the shield pop as specs soon anyway. With a market we can get some back to work to do a court.

Zunguin needs a joker, so switch the beakerhead and the build was a treb to a MDI. We need some MP's in these places or we lose tiles being worked.

The town of This is in the same boat, no MP and needs a spec, so it loses some shields and a turn off the build.
I open the choke now as the armies are well.
[3-0]

IBT:
Lots of Persians and Mongols on the move, presumably to the now opened choke.
We make 1 knight.

1315AD:
Giza nees spec.
Gwandu needs one.
New Memphis needs one.
Umtata needs one.
Capture 2 Persian workers and disband, cut the salt Persepolis.
Asyut retains its new knight for now and I take the pop on the coastal tile as a taxman.

It was not contributing any needed food and the gold was lost to corruption. Went from 9g to 13g.

IBT:
Germans start Bach as does the US.
15th hit by a Kesh, looks like no damage or at most 1 HP as it was on a hill.
We make a treb. (1-0) [4-0]

1320AD:
2nd, 7th and 9th have joined up. Now the 2 yellow ones are protected.
Redline Fr frigate.
3 new settlers made, but I am not sure where to put them. I have some on the way to the desert area. I figure we do not want to plant on the hills under the Babs culture or the beach under Fr culture right now, so I sent them to the cap for now.

I doubt we can expand from the choke until we have cavs or at least more armies or the ones out return, if they are coming back.
Move the 1st to Bapedi to prevent a riot as it was right there.
Walata needs spec.
5/5 K kills P-cav (1-0).
If this was Moo I would wish for a Wealthy merchant to donate some cash as I would then upgrade these crapy cats to not quite so bad trebs. Lots of misses on the Persian cavs at the choke.
Two 5/5 MDI's kill P-cav and 4/4 MDI and knight kill the last 2 in that stack (5-0).
Two 4/4 K kill P-cavs, one goes elite (7-0). [11-0]

 

[vmxa]

IBT:
lots of bombardment and roads are cut and units redlined. I see the privateers are Ghandi's.
Germans want to talk, not now.
Babs start Newtons.

1325AD:
Hum 16 Persian cavs and 2 knights arrive at the choke. I hope the cats are better this turn.
Persia is laying rails, so at least 2 have Steam.
Found New Oryx.
36 cats manage to take 10 HP's off the stack of 11 cavs and 11 trebs nearly matched it and 5 are now redlined.
4th kills 2 P- cavs. 5th kills one and 4/4 knight goes elite after getting one (4-0).
4/4 K kills one and goes elite (5-0).
5th kills one (6-0).
5/5 MDI kills one (7-0).
4/5 MDI gets one (8-0).
4/4 gets one (9-0).
2 more vet knights kill cavs (11-0). One stack down, one left. It has not been hit by cats, so I leave it for now.
New Pi needs spec, swap to MDI.
Timbuktu needs one, switch to market.
Ping Russian frigate.
[22-0]

IBT:
I see a Fr pike coming our way with a cat, huh?
I am seeing Iroq ships in our waters now.
We make a Knight and a treb.

1330AD:
4/5 MDI retreats a knight.
4/5 MDI kills knight (1-0).
4/4 K kills cav (2-0).
4/5 K kills cav (3-0).
*MDI kills cav (4-0).
5th kills knight and cav (6-0).
4th kills cav (7-0).
5/5 kills cav (8-0).
11th kills 2 cavs (10-0).
Found New Sebennytus, a bit shaky.
New Alex I have to switch from tax to joker. [32-0]

IBT:
Iroq start Bach.
We make a treb.
Babs drop 2 units at New El-Ash.
Mongols drop MDI at Swazi.

1335AD:
4/4 MDI kills cav (1-0).
*MDI kills Gr LB (2-0).
4th kills cav, but is forced to cut off the choke for a turn (3-0). No movement left.
4/4 K kills Fr pike and captures the cat, thanks (4-0).
5/5 K kills Gr LB (5-0).
3/5 MDI kills cav (6-0).
3/5 kills cav and finally a leader (7-0).
Create 16th and slap in 2 knights to cover 4th for now.
5/5 kills cav (8-0).
8th is finally heard from and kills Bab knight and LB (10-0).
10th kills Mongol MDI (11-0). [43-0]

IBT:
Zuku land one LB. Privateer sinks redline Zulu galley. Note I had seen a Bab galley sunk by a privateer a few turns back and did not list it, so that is the 3rd iirc.
Russia destroyed Greece. So we have lost Song/Greece/Vens/Brazil. Not met Argintina.
At war with the rest.
We made 4 Knights.

1340AD:
Start on MT at 50% -19gpt with 130 in hand.
Swap specialist to put some taxmen as beakers. Anyone needing a joker instead gets changed.
Now MT in 8 with -11gpt.
10th kills LB at Swazi (1-0).
Forgot to mention that I had cut off the Mongol capitol, but 1 sword army is not grouped with the others. The 15th has joined those armies near the capitol. The 2 knight armies are 5 tiles away, but stacks are blocking the direct path.
Clear the choke now as everyone turned around last turn, now they can head back to the battle. [44-0]

IBT:
We make 1 K.
Privateer sunk by Mongol ships as it attacked a convoy with a galleon and 2 frigate. Good plan as it had been pinged once by me.

1345AD:
The 6th should be on site in 3 turns, which should be when the others will be healed.
The 4 armies in convoy are 1 tile from the capitol. I was going to put them on a hill to heal, but may leave them where they are if not enough time to get well.
The 2 knight armies can stike in 2 turns and are full health.
I wish I could have had a shot at grabbing it, but it will be for the next one up.

16th has been filled.
Cossacks in sight of choke.
4/5 MDI kills cav (1-0).
*MDI kills cav (2-0).
4/4 MDI kills cav (3-0).
4/5 K kills cav and makes a leader. I form an army in Alex with no units now (4-0).
4th kills cav (5-0).
Avaris need a spec.
Jenne needs one as well (no mps).
New Buto needs one. I switched here and Jenne to MDI.
"This" needs beakerhead switched to joker.
[49-0]

IBT:
We made 4 knights.
Iroq starts Newtons.

1350AD:
Load *K into 17th.
two 4/5 MDI's kill cavs (2-0).
5/5 K kills cav (3-0).
4th kills cav (4-0).
11th need 5HP's to kill a redline cav (5-0).
12th and 13th on a hill 1 off of the capitol.
2nd, 7th, 9th and 15th on on a hill next to the cap.
6th is on a road that can be cut and will need 2 turns to be next to Kar. It cannot attack until the 3rd turn.
[54-0]

I just noticed that New Elephantine and Umtata are about to riot, so check them out.

Not a lot going on, One settler in position to found a town or move 1 to do it.
A bunch of places have MP units going, so they can be switch to whatever, but many of the cities are short of MP units.

 

[vmxa]

Roster:
Greebley - on deck
ThERat
markh
Northern Pike
vmxa - just played
M60A3TTS - up

 

[ThERat]

next player will have the honor of getting us the GL I hope. This will be interesting and hopefully turn the game around for us.
The land north of the choke should be good for us as it is fairly close to the capital, corruption should be limited

 

[Northern Pike]

Sounds good.

Hmm, three AI civs wiped out strictly by other AI already? We're lucky in that at least.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Since this is the critical point, I wanted to see what feedback there was. The situation is that the Mongols have no shortage of rifles with which to reinforce Karakorum. There are two in a position to reinforce the city next turn, and a stack of seven more behind that. By holding the hill tile directly south of the city, it delays their reinforcements by only one turn. And any attacks from there into the city become a cross-river one with the added defensive bonus.

Here is what we have to work with:

7th sword Army: 18hp- 1 archer, 3 swords. Can make two attacks
15th Knight Army: 13hp- Can make two attacks once across the river
13th Knight Army: 12hp- Can make three attacks
9th Sword Army: 10hp- Can make one attack once across the river
2nd Sword Army: 9hp- Can make one attack once across the river
12th Knight Army: 3hp- Can make three attacks

6th Sword Army will not be able to attack as is it is one turn behind everyone else.

I don't see how this will work. Maybe we will kill four rifles, but the capital has to be defended by more than that. Then next turn there are two more rifles defending, plus 7 more the next turn. The assumption has to be almost all armies would be redlined and killed by cavlary.

We are four turns from Military Tradition, which will at least give us military tech parity for some time. A couple cavalry armies could change things around. But if the Karakorum armies are sacrificed, this could put us in a hole we can't get out of. I think the attack should be delayed. Put the armies in pillaging mode and turn science off after military tradition. Upgrade knights to cavalry and have another go at Karakorum later.

If the decision is to attack now, I'll send them in. The counterattack we know will be at least two rifles and maybe follow-on cavalry.

 

[M60A3TTS]

 

[vmxa]

I debated sending the 2 new armies up there. The problem is that you can easily get block for a bit. I was surround twice with the last two knight armies.

As long as the choke is open you probably can get through. The tricky part is that I had to pass the lake and it has mountians adjacent, so it does not take many tiles to be blocked.

I would think we can wait for more armies as they are not going to get anything dangerous to use on use real soon. You may be able to send 3 knight amies now and that could be enough, especially if you can block some of the reinforcements.

Maybe they will do some drafting if you hit the place once with just one army. It would be nice to see them drop in pop.

The other thing I did not bring up is the ToE. Do you want to think about it? When to start and where?

If we do want to wait for more armies, we should spread out some and occupy some of the flood plains to deny them the food. The desert tiles will not feed them.

 

[vmxa]

BTW I do not think you have a real chance at 3 attacks with a knight army. I am not even confident that the sword armies can win one, but they should.

It will take some luck to get 2 attacks out of the sword armies, at full health.

 

[ThERat]

attack now I say, this is our chance, which won't come again soon I guess.

I also agree on ToE, which we need to start a prebuild with our shield poor towns

 

[M60A3TTS]

et tu ThERat?

Now I know how Von Paulus must have felt.

I'll wait a while longer and carry out the attack if that is the consensus.

 

[Salarakas]

lurker's comment: I would stack the armies, use all but one to attack the city and use the one healthy one for cover. Then just heal the wounded armies and rinse and repeat until the city is yours.

Might take quite a few turns though.