GR13 - AWE on LK's world map

[Northern Pike]

550 (0): We manage to kill two Impis around Giza, but there's nothing we can do about the one in position to pillage our incense (2-0).

Our incense is duly pillaged.

Memphis settler --> settler, Giza walls --> catapult (eventually).


530 (1): A Bab Bowman perishes attacking our iron town (3-0).

Disease strikes Memphis.


510 (2): We get some bad RNG around Giza, and defeating two Songhai archers costs us two of our own (5-2).

Pi-Ramesses barracks --> swordsman.


490 (3): We have to get a Bab spearman off the Alexandria-Byblos road, and it costs us an archer (6-3).

We found El-Amarna on the Red Sea--the only useful site that won't add to our defensive burden.

An Impi attacks our spearman in Heliopolis, a little surprisingly, and perishes (7-3).

Our heroic exploring warrior is finally trapped and slain (7-4).

A Bab swordsman appears.

Mathematics --> Writing.

Thebes swordsman --> swordsman, Heliopolis walls --> catapult.


470 (4): Alexandria swordsman --> swordsman, Byblos walls --> barracks.


450 (5): We dispose of an Impi and a Songhai warrior around Giza (9-4).

We endure a very close call at Heliopolis when the Zulus attack en masse, but it works out well, as we strike down three Impis and two archers for the loss of one spearman (14-5).

The Babylonians are building the Great Library, and we're still twelve turns away from Writing.


430 (6): We get incense hooked up again.

A Bab swordsman and a Bowman fall attacking Alexandria (16-5).

Thebes swordsman --> swordsman.

Giza catapult --> catapult.


410 (7): Not much.


390 (8): Helio catapult --> catapult, Pi-Ram swordsman --> swordsman.


370 (9): We bombard and destroy an Impi around Giza, with the Imp's irritating retreat ability necessitating two attacks as usual (17-5).

Two Bab Bowmen attack Alexandria and perish (19-5).

Thebes sword --> sword.


350 (10): Seven elite victories this round, three of them defensive, didn't produce a Great Leader.

 

[Northern Pike]

Right now our losing the Great Library to the Babs looks like a greater threat than the military situation, so some of our cities are micromanaged more for commerce than for shields. Memphis is the extreme case, since I don't think we should sacrifice population for settlers until we've discovered Literature. We could extend the same principle to the capital, if the next player feels confident about accepting slower production of swordsmen.

The Zulus could have pillaged our southern lands into the Stone Age this round, but wasted their Impis in foolish attacks on cities, or in moving towards ungarrisoned cities. The latter wasn't conscious manipulation on my part, just the natural result of our unit starvation.

Alexandria is unusually micromanaged because it's about to complete a build, and Pi-Ram because it has no garrison at the moment.

We're at 60% research presently, but we can go to 70% whenever we have enough gold to cover the deficit involved.

I've left one worker with its full movement, so the next player can decide whether to use it in risky projects around Byblos or return it to our heartland.

Many of our units have used 1/3 or 2/3 of their movement, so if you're inclined to make moves before pressing Enter, check carefully.

 

[Northern Pike]

The present danger:

 

[ThERat]

good turns, NP

we will be in trouble if we do not get the GL. in case babs get it, at least we could capture the city and try to hold it

hope you guys will do well!!!

 

[plarq]

If you lost the Glib, what would you build instead?

 

[vmxa]

Ok, I got it and will get to it later today. I have no idea what we would be in position to make as I doubt we will be up to the FP count for this map.

 

[M60A3TTS]

If you lost the Glib, what would you build instead?

A 185 shield swordsman, and I suggest we discuss paying the bill without delay.

Here is the math. We are 215 shields short. At 6 spt, that's 36 turns. We know a despotic GA is of no real benefit here with regards to shields, so if a horse showed up in Thebes it really wouldn't matter for this build-other than getting the techs a tad sooner.

The danger isn't that the Babs build the GLib. ThERat is right- we can capture it. The real danger is in their geographic location they probably already have contact with a lot of civs who are not at war and before too long more of them will jump into the contest. I'm fine with Hammy completing the GLib, my concern is that someone like Mao could. It's a long haul to Beijing. If the AI starts building it in a 15 spt capital, they would complete it in what? I forget the discount at emperor, but I'm guessing like 22 turns at a 20% discount.

Their 22 is a lot less than our 36. Even if we go to 8 spt after discovering literature, the best we can probably hope for is 30 turns. If we change Elephantine to a sword, our loss is 156 shields, but given that we can then up the town to 8 spt immediately, that 36 turn build window would allow the town to produce a further 8 swords- or more cats if you prefer. That could go quite a ways towards improving the military situation.

In any case if we decide to stick it out, the next turn set should tell us who our competition would ultimately be for the GLib. Anyone who comes in later than that would probably be too late.

 

[vmxa]

Yes we have no chance at the GLB at the rate we are going. It is 400 for us and 320 for them. So 22 turns is the number, unless they have problems with pillage, happiness or something.

I agree 100%, we may as well get a unit out now and hope Babs is the one. Are they in a GA yet? I do not know if they have had a bow win Vs us or not.

I have not looked at the game yet, but will in a few minutes. I guess I need to run a check to see what the OCN is for us and if we are close to the FP number.

If we were 2 or 3 towns away, we could wait for that.

 

[vmxa]

Pre:

Nothing much that I can see. I move a cat into Giza and the aforementioned worker moves out. The best I can figure is that we are making 44BPT now and will not be able to maintain that for long.

We are +6GPT now, but that will drop as more units are made. We can squeeze out a town or two to sort of hold the level. Even if we assume 44 all the way, it looks like 7 turns left for Write and 16 for Lit. That is right on the edge for the LIB going up elsewhere. What it all means is we will finish the palace beofre we get lit anyway, unless we build more towns. I am too lazy to figure out how many towns for how many shields.

I am not real clear on how we can up the shields Elephantine. I mean if we add pop we need more food. If we irrigate we do not get shields. If we move ove the coast, we lose 1 commerce and the beakers will drop.

We would need to up the lux to have more working pop and that comes out of beakers as well.

All of this presumes the Babs are the front runners for the GLB and they may not be the ones.

Since I have company right now, grandkids, I will wait for some feedback. My question is do we give it up now or not. If we do what is the tech we go for after writing, instead of Lit. Do you want lib anyway or do we go for Monarchy?

I figure that markets are not a top priority right now and aquas can wait. Do you want horses over all the others?

 

[Northern Pike]

I don't think our chances will be very good if we don't build the GLib ourselves. Even if we were able to take it from the Babs, doing so would push us into a wrong strategy, in which we'd be making the contacts we've so far avoided and trying to hold cities beyond the choke.

So I'd rather make a maximum effort to win the race to the GLib. A crucial point here is that our workers don't have a lot of important jobs to do now. So as soon as we discover Literature, or a little before, we can adjust the improvements around Elephantine--this would involve irrigating some mined plains--and then merge some workers into the town, raising the lux rate as necessary. I believe (without opening the save) we could get the town to twelve shields before corruption by doing this.

 

[Greebley]

15 spt seems high for a capitol for this early in the game. 10 seems more realistic to me. However, at 11 it is still only 30 turns for them. The AI also switches cities.

So I am torn. Going Max on the GLib would be a huge gamble with probably less than a 50% chance of working. I would still give it 1/3 or 1/4 of working though which isn't non-existant.

If we do bag the GLib, I would like to consider going on the offensive. If we can take land we can research faster and have a better chance. I think following the Nile south and going for Songhai makes most sense.

The reason for the attack is that we have tech parity now. We will never have it again and need to grow large to have a chance.

I think if we just sit here and don't take out an AI and lose the GLib, then we will have the smallest chance of winning.

Try to maximize our chances for an army.

 

[M60A3TTS]

If we hire a bunch of scientists, we can get writing in 5. We could have vmxa play to that point and then see how far we are from lit. Elephantine can do 11 spt with zero growth and no terrain changes. If we go max science like that, it is likely going to stretch our military right to the edge.

I do agree that building down south along the Nile and taking the fight to the Songhai is the way to go.

 

[vmxa]

Well it is late, so I will check in here around 10AM my time and see if anyone else has some input and then get to it. Looks like the consensus is to give it an all out run.

I was wondering why we decided they were doing so many shields, but if they are at full size or near it and in a GA..... The draw backs of being at war are they are not pushing out settlers to stay small.

I have not played much emperor in the last 2 years, but I am some what surprised to see them jump on Lit and the GLB so soon. I often see Sid games where they go deep into the middle age or even into industrial and not research Lit.

I have a bad feeling that they have several more civs in contact. Also we can see the greenish borders. I will try to remember to look to see if we have contact. I think not as the price for writing is about right for three civs.

 

[Greebley]

Tech is random. They can go for Lit right away or they can avoid it for a long time. It depends on chance.

We simply got unlucky and one of the AI's went for it pretty early.

 

[ThERat]

I think we stand no chance to get the GL as babs would certainly be in their GA. Unless you guys defeated every single bowman, they are right in there and would make decent shields.
I rather we try and expand towards Babylon and hold the ground in the south. Babylon looks better land. Maybe they have horses as well (anyone seen horses from any enemy so far?)

 

[markh]

I did not see and horses and I just had two bowmen suiciding on our defenses, so no GA for Hammi during my set.

 

[Greebley]

I think we stand no chance to get the GL as babs would certainly be in their GA. Unless you guys defeated every single bowman, they are right in there and would make decent shields.
I rather we try and expand towards Babylon and hold the ground in the south. Babylon looks better land. Maybe they have horses as well (anyone seen horses from any enemy so far?)

I don't think the quality of the land is as important as the number of fronts. We need to hurt the African civs so we don't have to devote resources to the southern front. We take out songhai and it is only 1 vs 1 on the Zulu. We can do those. Then we have one front and a good chance to win even without the GLib if we can stay close enough in tech.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I did not see and horses and I just had two bowmen suiciding on our defenses, so no GA for Hammi during my set.

That assumes he wasn't fighting or won't soon fight someone else.

We just need to be clear if we're going for the GLib, we need to focus our efforts on getting to lit ASAP and hire as many scientists as it takes. Elephantine needs to get to max shields as soon as it makes sense. It can always be dropped to 2 spt. What we don't want is to discover literature with the palace several turns from completion. Obviously same turn is what we should be aiming for.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: For what it's worth, I agree with Greebley: more fronts, more trouble. TGL is a nice accessory but it isn't quite vital, not if your closest neighbor has a decent shot at it. Heck, I'd even consider suiciding a warrior on a bowman to gift them a GA and make sure they win the race.

Also, the land gets better and better as you go south, from what I observe, and anyways covering 2 fronts actively is never a winning strategy. Holding a tighht front while cleaning the other side of the map was a positive factor in last game, as I recall.

 

[ThERat]

ok, Greebley and BeF, you guys are right, we should expand south not north with a smaller front. But, we might be able to acquire Arabia without expanding our front too much, if we can put a foothold into Iraq.

The south of Africa should be better of course, then Sahara desert we have now.
BeF argument to get babs to GA to make sure they get the GL sounds very good to me too