GR2 - Sherman's War (C3C AW).

Excellent push forward. :goodjob: to Slinger!

Let's hope Handy is available to play, and that we hear from him before tomorrow afternoon. I think he will be pleasantly surprised by how much progress has been made.

Couple of quick notes from the save:

Research can be turned down to 50%, Education is still due in 2 but we would make +65 gpt. Our "illustrious" opponents now have zero Iron and zero Saltpeter in their combined territories, so the blowout continues.

Lots of MM opportunities exist. Williamham is terribly corrupt, but has truckloads of food, so could be running some specialists. (Already size 7, so we get the extra unit support.)

One criticism. We have a couple of weird army combinations, in particular the knight in Men of Troy. The army moves as fast as its slowest member, so we only get two moves anyhow. If we wanted to put a 4th unit in the army, a much better choice would have been a Crusader. This army now cannot be transported to the other continent until Combustion. The second problem was that it was a veteran knight. We really don't need to add 4th units to any army right now, but when we do we should have enough elites lying around that those should be added. It is incredibly difficult to promote any unit in an army that is not on top, so we likely won't be able to get an 18th hit point in the Men of Troy through promotion. Since that is the only 4-member army, and the combination is so weird, I have to assume it was a mis-click.

Secondly, and I'll put it in bold:

To invade the other continent with caravels, we MUST have armies loaded with only two units!

@Handy - do NOT put another unit in the army garrisoning Dixon. We'll take two more knights on a separate caravel, and form a 4-member army when we land. Also, be so kind as to score us two more leaders, so we can invade with three armies at once.
 
Originally posted by Greebley
Good turns. We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory)


I think Handy said he would be back today so lets give him a chance for an "I got it". Handy, if you are back and read this, then post an I got it or a request to switch with TMcC.

If we don't hear from Handy within 24 hours (from now), then you can take TMcC.

I GOT IT

Very Nice Progress :D

I'll read through all of your recent posts and make a "to do" list before I play. I'll probably only play 5 turns since I'm a little out of the flow of the game. I'll play & today (Saturday) 12-20.

It's good to be home! :)
 
Won't we be able to build caravels in around 7-8 turns? Also, you can get education in 1 and I think I saved it that way.
 
Pre Turn Review (1050 AD). My how time flies…

To Do – Italics are quotes from teammates prior posts
Set research to 50% ok
…Our "illustrious" opponents now have zero Iron and zero Saltpeter in their combined territories, so the blowout continues… OUTSTANDING :D
Lots of MM opportunities exist MM is not one of my strengths. I don’t stink, but…well, you know. I’ll do my best, but the next player should have a look @ cities to make sure they are efficient.
We have a couple of weird army combinations… the army moves as fast as its slowest member… this army now cannot be transported to the other continent until Combustion... we should have enough elites lying around that those should be added. I agree with this. If our continent has zero salt & Iron, we can afford to keep armies to size 3 and all of the same unit is a good idea.
To invade the other continent with caravels, we MUST have armies loaded with only two units! Pretty amazing. I’ve never been in a position before to invade with caravels in AWM. I was never ready until Galleons came in. Who was the guy who was worried we could not win this start… ;)
do NOT put another unit in the army garrisoning Dixon OK
We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory) Scout for Ivory & see when & how we might make preparations to hook up.
Note to self- remember to starve captured cities & sell improvements.
I need to go back & read to see what the research plan was after we get education. I see a Sistine pre-build, but since we will probably build few if any cathedrals I’m guessing that’s intended for Bach which has an effect on all cities or some other wonder.
Research… I found these posts…
T_McC ”…either Music Theory in 7 or Astronomy in 11 … Georgia…Palace pre-build” Research Guns, Education, and then Astronomy… Georgia is for Copernicus' … Chattanooga on Sistine to pre-build for Magellan's. Chattanooga will be building for ~30 turns (450 shields), and should then instantly complete Magellan's… if someone else completes Sistine before we discover Astronomy…Swap Chattanooga to Cathedral, then immediately to University to hold 160 shields and 2 turns building time. Repeat as necessary until Astronomy comes in and the Palace becomes available… I’ll probably go towards Astronomy.
We really needed the dye lux. I would just continue to use that stack to work your way to the gems.
Actions:
I dial research down 50% & still get education in 2, making 64 GPT.
I admire all of the blue on the Mini map. :D
Swap some Greebleyville & Lancaster tiles. Lancaster has a lot of extra food.
Rearrange some Lancaster & Shiloh tiles so Shiloh can grow.
Changed Paducah so it won’t starve.
Upgrade a pike in Boston.
I see the Ivory near around Edrine.
No other civs have Chivalry – good. :D
Upgrade Pike in Dixon
Fix Augusta, Bedford, and Paducah so they won’t riot.
MM Charleston – still get the court in 3, now grow in 9 instead of 26.
Swap Charleston & Briar Creek tiles.
Nashville gets a Charleston tile and the aqueduct comes in 3 turns sooner.
Switch Mason, Seattle, and Atlanta & Boston to worker. We can rush temples in these corrupt cities by disbanding drafted units and disbanding obsolete units. We don’t need temple in corrupt areas except to gain landmass. I think we need workers more than temples right now. Roads to the battlefront will put more heat on Otto & friends. We can join the workers to cities later if we don’t need them anymore. I left the wall builds for now, may be able to switch to workers if the attacks are weak. I hurry the worker @ Boston to get the pop down faster to reduce flip risk. Wasted 3 shields in Seattle when I switched.

Turn 1 1060 AD
Move some workers. I’m going to build a road to the front lines so knights do not get stuck in the jungle.
Slider to 40% Education in 1.


Turn 2 1070 AD
Set for Astronomy due in 8
Williamham – worker – worker
We get another crusader :D
Little Roundtop – market – harbor
Boston
We need a knight or two up here to kill archers & spears. Send a knight over from Atlanta.
Bomb three units that walked up IBT.
Upgrade a pike
Position galleys S of Pikes peak to reduce fog.
Yikes – What am I to do with the leader in Tecumseh? Where the heck did he come from – I didn’t see any leaders when I check F3. Was he on auto move??
Okay – he is a science leader. Must have gotten him by researching education first. I reloaded the 1060 AD auto save & he was not there. I didn’t see any pop-ups about getting a great leader. Did I miss a popup? Must have missed the pop-up message :confused: do you get a popup on science leaders?
Now what to do with the leader. Cannot build an army with a science leader. I can enter an “Age of Science” or build a wonder. I think I’ll save him and you can decide what to do with him. We won’t be able to rush Copernicus on my 5 turns since Astronomy is 8 turns away. Maybe we could detour & rush Bach’s for denial.
Science leader is fortified in our Capital
Pillage American horses.
Pillage Otto horses


Turn 3 1080 AD
Archer attacks & loses to Musket in Boston
AI dutifully moves into the kill zone created N of Pikes peak. The AI should move toward the empty tile where the gems are like moths to a light. You’ll need to kill them lest they pillage our gems. After we clear the tile next to the gems, we can fortify on the gems so there is no pillage risk. Since no one has horses hooked up, the pillage risk is already low.
Tecumseh – knight – knight
Montgomery – knight – knight
Grant – settler – settler
Charleston – courthouse – temple
Buy a worker in Boston
2 elites kill 2 archers near Pikes Peak.
Not really sure what the galleys were intended for. I set them in a line to reduce the fog.

Turn 4 1090 AD
3 archers move to gems near Pikes Peak
Bedford Forest – harbor – library
LSU – knight – knight
Boston – worker – worker
Bull Run – knight – library
Manassas riots :confused: I hire a tax dude
Paducah – knight – knight
Greebleyville – temple – market
Switch Tecumseh to university
Upgrade 2 pikes to musket in Mason where a lot of Archers are gathering. Maybe the upgrade will scare them off. Mason is on a hill, should hold easy.
Knight in mason kills archer on the hill.
Knight in Mason kills archer in the swamp. No more attacks because they would expose knight to counterattack. If AI archers want a piece of muskets on a hill, let them come.
Kill 3 archers near Pikes Peak. No losses, 1 retreat and 1 Knight promote.

Turn 5 1100 AD
Inca settler and a spear get off S of Pikes peak in the Jungle. (I sent two crusaders over to kill – hopefully before they settle.)
Sherman – knight – knight
Savannah riots – hire tax dude
Nashville – aqueduct – library
Jungle road completes – I’ll start the trebs north towards Pikes Peak.
Kill spear near Pikes Peak & capture an Otto Settler
Knight kills archer near Boston
Istanbul had horse hooked back up. I guess this army can go back & forth from Istanbul to Bursa pillaging horses.
Kill 2 archers near Mason
:mad: I miss clicked & put a knight on the “gems killing field”. I meant to leave that tile open, sorry.

Summary
I build roads to the front through the Jungle. There are several knights on the road to Pikes Peak. You will soon have ample knights for another offensive push.
The trebs from Allegheny are on the jungle road headed towards Pikes Peak.
I almost pillaged all of America in 5 turns. They will fall easy, but can wait for now.
I’m second guessing myself on switching the corrupt cities to workers. You can switch to something else if you desire.
Don’t forget about the leader in Tecumseh. I woke him up as a reminder. :D

Here is the save. :D

GR2_1100BC
 
I hope you didn't put 4th units in armies. :eek: We won't be able to move those until transports and I suspect the game will be over before then. (which is why I keep mentioning it).

Remember that the Army counts as 1 unit so it is size 5 with 4 units in it.
 
Originally posted by barbslinger
Won't we be able to build caravels in around 7-8 turns? Also, you can get education in 1 and I think I saved it that way.

Greebley already mentioned this, but the Army itself counts as 1, and every unit inside the army counts as 1. So a two-knight army counts as three units for transport purposes. I have no idea why it is coded this way, but it is.

I'm not sure we shouldn't put a 4th unit in some of the armies, as I'm sure we will keep a couple on the home continent to deal with any landings. Plus, some of our armies are going to get outdated. I'm thinking particularly of the Javelin Army, as it only has a defense of 2. But better to be safe than sorry and wait until later to decide who gets a 4th on our continent. I do think that when we initially invade the other continent, we should only be using knight armies. The 3rd square of pillaging relative to our other armies will be quite helpful. And they are rather unlikely to get attacked.

Once those armies are on the other continent, they aren't coming back, so I think we should feel free to add a 4th (and 3rd) unit over there.
 
Nice comeback Handy.

You get the most interesting turns, a Scientific Great Leader! And just when we really don't need one.

I see two options for this guy.
(1) Detour to Music Theory (after Navigation) and rush Bach's wherever. We don't need it in Monarchy, but ... with 6 lux on this continent, Markets, Temples and Bach's, we might be able to do AW in Republic. A size 12 city will have a maximum of 21 unhappies (including War Weariness). Six lux with markets counter 16 of them, Bach's 2, and Temples 1. With a 10% lux tax, we should be able to keep all cities working. I have no idea whether we come out ahead economically, because we would have large unit costs, but it is an interesting idea.
(2) Save him and insta-complete Newton's in Georgia. Stacking Newtons with Copernicus would make for quite a strong science city.

Third option is to wait until the patch comes out, and maybe try a Scientific Golden Age. Best case scenario, we get 5 four-turn techs during the 20 turns, or effectively one free.

I like (2) the best, but am willing to try anything. I don't see us being threatened this game.

Oh, Got It.
 
From the other AW game I am playing, I believe that strength 2 armies are good until Cavalry (knights won't attack it). Even our Jav army should be able to pillage for a while if the other continent is not ahead (and I don't think it is).

Remember the variant is to maximize pillaging. I am hoping to be able to send ALL the armies to the other continent and make short work of the other civs developement.
 
Originally posted by Greebley
I hope you didn't put 4th units in armies. :eek: We won't be able to move those until transports and I suspect the game will be over before then. (which is why I keep mentioning it).

Remember that the Army counts as 1 unit so it is size 5 with 4 units in it.

I did not load any units into armies on my turns. They are as I found them. :D

Galleons don't come in until magnetism, so we can't transport armies with 3 units loaded until that time. Good news is Caravels can be upgraded. We should send the additional units along to load after the army + extra units off-load onto the new continent. I agree we should keep the armies units comparable. We don't want to mix 2 move knights with 1 move ground troops. The army moves at the rate of the slowest unit. Too bad the patch removed the ability to unload armies (and thus upgrade them). IMHO you should be able to upgrade an army.
 
Originally posted by T_McC
Nice comeback Handy.

You get the most interesting turns, a Scientific Great Leader! And just when we really don't need one...


:lol: I couldn't think of anything useful to do with the leader on my turns. Didn't want to waste him since C3C won't allow military leaders to rush Great Wonders.

I did not do the math (lots of chores to catch up on), but could we rush Copernicus, and use the prebuild for Adam Smith's? Or would it take too many turns to research for Adam smith's, resulting in a wasted palace prebuild?
 
There was no need to rush Copernicus, it was due the turn after Astronomy was discovered. Similiarly, Magellan's voyage should come in the turn after Navigation.

I like the idea of rushing Smiths with the SGL. We can pre-build for either Smiths or Newtons, and get both. After Navigation, the tech choices become less obvious.
 
Its too bad that Free Artistery is so hard to get. Shakespeares is now a nice little wonder. I don't think it is worth researching two unnecessary techs for however.

Does the fact we got a great leader from Education mean the other continent doesn't have it? In other words, can you get a science leader if someone else you haven't met has that tech?
 
Originally posted by Greebley
Its too bad that Free Artistery is so hard to get. Shakespeares is now a nice little wonder. I don't think it is worth researching two unnecessary techs for however.

Oooh, hadn't thought of that one. Agreed though that it isn't worth taking a 3-tech detour to get it. [PP, Demo, FA]


Originally posted by Greebley
Does the fact we got a great leader from Education mean the other continent doesn't have it? In other words, can you get a science leader if someone else you haven't met has that tech?

IIRC, you must be the first one to research the tech worldwide. So the other continent doesn't have education yet. That's really bad news for them.
 
GR2 - The Muppets go Medieval

1100 AD (0) - Hoo Boy, let's do some MM! Georgia is building the Palace, but secretly longs to see the stars. It is 308 shields into its project, and with Astronomy coming in 4 turns, will conveniently have just less than 400 shields when the switch to Copernicus can be made. Chattanooga is 210 shields into its foolish build of Sistine Chapel, although if Navigation comes up in 13 turns, Magellan's Voyage would be insta-completed. All things right on schedule! Play with the sliders, current distribution seems optimal. We have 1 settler active, I want more. Lots more. Will investigate possibilities. We are paying 70 gpt in unit support. This also speaks to the need for more cities. We seem to be on a library building kick. Some of these may get postponed. Handy likes building walls of troops. Will wake galleys to get back to Harbors for upgrade with Astronomy. We have 7, could use a couple more. Also want to get elite units to the front, I want a couple of more leaders.

Now to start actually looking at the cities. Put a couple of taxmen in Williamham. BedFor switched to settler. LSU (20 spt) switched to musket. Boston reset to starve, adding a taxman. With 50% corruption, I can't justify a library in Shiloh. When it grows, we'd gain more by creating a scientist than with a library. So switched to Knight. Switch Sherman to Courthouse. It should pay for itself, and then make every Knight and Cavalry build in one turn less. Swap a tile at Atlanta. Maybe it will be different with the patch, but we have a lot of cities that derive no benefit from mining. So growth comes sooner. Resaca swapped to Settler. Swap tiles to keep Manassas from starving. Swap tiles for faster growth at Mason. Paducah swapped to Settler. Lincoln swapped to Settler. Note to self, examine Greebleyville locale after next turn, due to growth. Montgomery swaps to Galley. I think an even dozen is a good start. We'll need a lot of troop transport capacity. Iron Hill swapped to Temple, will give same benefit as Harbor, at least until next growth (+2 food from whales). Swap tiles to get growth at Charleston 1 turn sooner. Swap Andersonville to Aqueduct, can grow before needing Temple. Sum total: added 6 gpt to economy. Ehh. :shrug:

Move small Knight army to cover Gems tile. I don't want to let the Ottos get off even one attack. I see it will take a couple of turns for the artillery to make it to the front.

<Return>

IT - Abe pulls out a surprisingly representative stack next to Boston. Inca settler-spear pair foolishly move onto ruins, where I can attack them. Otto archers threaten Dixon.

1110 AD (1)
Three dead American soldiers. Crusader kills spear, captures pair of slaves. Men of Troy take 1st Otto Archer, Elite Knight takes second, Elite knight takes third. [7-0]

IT - Everybody seems to run away?

1120 AD (2)
Bomb and kill Otto archer with elite knight. The jungle is starting to come down.

IT - Couple o'Incas come onto gems square.

1130 AD (3)
Bomb archers, kill w/Elite Crusader, Elite Horse. Redline three more Inca archers, kill w/two Elite Knights, Vet Crusader. [12-0]

IT - Ottomans advance, Abe puts a unit next to Boston.

1140 AD (4)
Astronomy --> Navigation in 7.
Kill American archer. Bomb stack of Otto units in jungle. Kill with Elite Crusader, lose Vet. Knight, win w/vet Knight, enslave with elite Jav, win with Vet Knight, win and promote vet Knight, win w/vet Knight, win w/Elite Horse. SOD heads out for Niagra Falls. [20-1]

IT - Now the Ottos run away.

1150 AD (5)
Copernicus completes, Georgia starts Uni. Adjust slider down to get more money. Assault on Niagra Falls: Two elite knights win, we burn the city and capture a settler. Kill American archer. Check dot-map. Assault force assembled for Grand River. [23-1]

IT - Get Palace expansion. Longbows seem to be the order of the day.

1160 AD (6)
Found Antietam NE of BedFor. Kill American archer. Off Iro archer. Assemble task force for Oil Springs. [25-1]

IT - I always pause when I see a Chasqui Scout, as the graphic looks a lot like an Infantry. A few Longbows advance, none into threatening positions as of yet.

1170 AD (7)
Assault on Grand River: Four Tre shots, an Elite Crusader win and a Vet Knight win. City burns and we capture 2 workers. Elite knight kills softened spear. Found Vicksburg. Inland. In the middle of the jungle. :crazyeye: Oil Springs is in the cross-hairs. [28-1]

IT - Otto Longbows like The Men of Troy. Others just wander around.

1180 AD (8)
Found Birmingham on ex-Iro Iron. Found Tidewater NE of Antietam. I'm running out of names. Think ... Dixie ... burning ... Found Tara SE of Atlanta. :) :rolleyes:

Assault on Oil Springs: Two Vet knight wins, one promotion and ...
Buh-Bye-Awatha :lol: :mad: [30-1]

IT - Ottomans are now attracted by the naked settler just out of their reach. Perverts. :nono:

1190 AD (9)
Two more elite victories, no leader. The Western Task Force is loaded and out to sea west of Boston. [32-1]

IT - These clowns are very accomodating. Defense 1 units on flat ground! Come on, Papa needs a leader ...

1200 AD (10)
Incan Longbow dies to elite knight. Elite Crusader kills Otto spear. American archer offed. Knight retreat, knight victory, Crusader victory against Incas. Knight and Men of Troy kill two Otto longbows. Fin. [39-1]

Most Caravels are out at sea, so the next leader can see them. There are two tucked inside Montgomery, waiting for an Eastern Task Force to be assembled. The Western Force is loaded, and off the coast of Boston. On Greebley's first turn, Navigation will come in, and those boats can head off into the darkness. I also believe that Chatanooga will switch to Magellan's and be due on Greebley's 2nd turn. There is a settler in the eastern marshes, tucked under the Crusader. He is standing on one of our dots. In the west there is a settler trying to get to the hill square occupied by the MDI pair. This is also one of our dots. In the north, the Handymen are covering a stack that includes a settler. They are destined for the forest tile being guarded by the Men of Troy. That will account for all but one of the dots on the latest map.

I thought about letting the Iro survive, but it was too easy to knock them off. Abe will provide some leader fodder, so we can let him live. I also think either the Incas or the Ottos should be allowed to keep a tundra city, to keep tech costs up for the other continent, in case they meet folks other than us.

We currently have 28% of land area, and 45% of population. By the time we invade the other continent, we should only need land area to trigger domination. We are actually paying less support costs at the end of my turns than the beginning.

I had a disturbing thought during my turns, which I will address in the next post.
 
There is no save because the upload server is down. :(

Here's what was troubling me: The SGL shows up on the military advisor screen. I know you can't have two MGL's at once, so I wonder whether you also cannot have an SGL and MGL at the same time? After Navigation completes, Magnetism is 3 techs away, so we don't really need a fresh 2-member army, but these are going to be ~25 war-heavy turns before Galleons. If we used the SGL to launch a scientific GA after Navigation completes, I think it would be effectively like trading the leader for ~1200 gold, and re-opening the possibility of more armies.

I really don't have a strong idea of what to do here, or even whether this is a valid concern.
 
Originally posted by T_McC

IIRC, you must be the first one to research the tech worldwide. .

The c3c manual (consider the source) says "anytime you are the first tribe to research a tech, the opportunity for receiving a great leader is increased".

I think that means the first tribe worldwide to research a tech. It's not totally clear from the language used in the manual, but it's probably the case.

The manual is silent with respect to whether or not you can generate more than 1 scientific leader per game. Hopefully there is not a limit. :D

You raise a very good point about the Science leader perhaps preventing us from a military leader. I wonder if anyone on another forum has the definitive answer to this.

T_McC

:goodjob: Nice set of turns on the offensive. :goodjob:
 
I think they are separate. the methods to generate are to separate types of engagement. I would take the chance. BTW why don't we just use him for a science GA. We're so much ahead of everyone I think we are guarateed the balance of the wonders until we sail and meet. I read the posts that we are sailing, are the armies on those boats?
Also, I know have read in posts of more than 2 sci leaders. Its a 1/16th chance IIRC every time you are 1st to research.
 
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