Graded Invisibility/Vision Improvements Feature Development

[primem0ver]

This thread is to discuss the implementation of Graded Invisibility and Vision Improvements.

Originally, this was submitted as two separate mods that I created for the Genetic Era Mod. I want to implement them here in C2C. A good description of the features I included can be found here for graded invisibility, and here for vision improvements.

For those of you who have contributed to the ideas in C2C, feel free to post them and we can discuss what we will do do add to/change this original mod.

 

[primem0ver]

I've posted the original articles on this mod above.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, so from what I gathered there, you pretty much set up what I was looking to do, nearly verbatim.

However, I'm also looking for some of the following details:

1) any unit CAN be invisible to another based on the most basic form of visibility/invisibility categories (say, stealth perhaps).

2) This stealth value would default to 0 but all units would have a stealth value regardless. Obviously, units designed to elude detection such as rogues and spies and such would start with higher base values that would increase with upgrades. But many animals would have higher base values as well.

3) There would be basic stealth promotions available to Scoundrels and Spies that would powerfully increase their stealth value. Other units could gain some access to these too... units like Skirmishers, Special Forces, Mercenaries, Some trained animals, Recon...

4) Promotions to enhance stealth when the unit is on specific terrains such as Forest etc... More widely available.

5) Promotions that enhance stealth by round fortified (Blend In ability)
Available to most units that can fortify.

6) Terrain itself would naturally either increase or decrease the stealth value of a unit. Marsh alone could possibly hide even a large army from the less vigilant.

7) Distance from observing unit should play a role: -1 stealth if only 1 spc away, 0 if 2, +1 stealth for 3, +3 for 4 etc... obviously the visibility range is also going to be an ultimate limitation.

8) Improvements could make stealth values higher or lower (higher if an improvement was a hiding hole for example, lower if its a village where people may see and report you to authorities.)

9) Then there'd be an Alertness value on all troops that would play a factor in this. I believe you basically have the setup for all of this established in the previous mod already... And of course there'd be promo lines, and equipments like spyglasses and night vision goggles, for Alertness as well.

10) City Buildings and Fort Upgrades should also increase Alertness on present units. Tech improvements to communication infrastructures such as phone lines, courier systems, mail etc... should also grant modifiers to concealment of enemies when inside your city radii.

11) I really wanted to work in an ambush mission into all this - maybe I can still do that here (an ability for a unit who's hidden from an enemy that has inadvertently moved into the same plot, to attack said enemy. Same plot to Same plot combat... tricky stuff.) I also wanted to create a promo line that would enable Scoundrel types to get enormous benefits when attacking units that individually had no visibility on them. (Backstab)

12) Down the road, weather effects could work into the visibility system as well.



In short, I think you've managed to work out a method that would enable lot of what I wanted to do here and I'd be more than happy to have you go ahead with setting it up. I noticed we seem to already have some of those effects you mentioned such as increased visibility range on towers etc... but you'll see what overlaps as you go I'm sure. Obviously, you had well thought out different methods of being invisible into your workup, something I had not yet fully incorporated into my plan yet... and I think that's right on target.

One other thing that may go hand in hand here and that's 'states of units'. If we made it possible for units to 'phase out' of physical reality or to travel underground, or underwater, that could play into such a visibility system quite a bit and I think your familiarity with these kinds of 'Domain/visibility' matters could be helpful in establishing those kinds of possibilities as well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Increased visibility from buildings, in C2C, does not work as far as I have been able to test.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

how about units could hide behind other units also it should take time for units to tell you where the enemy. also you could things like fog would appear like storms which could hide units

 

[primem0ver]

@Thunderbird.

I get the gist of what you are trying to do. I think that most (if not all) of these changes can be accommodated by broadening the "invisibility" level and then using those invisibility levels as a base setting for each unit. It would be fairly simple change.

However, adding all those different logistics may be time consuming. I say we start with a basic system and enhance it as we go.

One other stipulation. I think we should limit the range of invisibility to a number between say 0 and 31 or at most 0 and 63. The reason for this is because of turn processing time. Working through invisibilities for each unit can add up. Currently the max is 100 but I don't think it needs to be that high and the highest level I use is something like six or seven.

 

[primem0ver]

Increased visibility from buildings, in C2C, does not work as far as I have been able to test.

I see no reason why the code I used for Warlords couldn't be updated for C2C. It is based on fairly simple algorithm (in concept) and it worked flawlessly once I got the bugs out. The only shortcoming it had was the AI making vision improvements on land. It did a decent job in the ocean (because of the fewer choices it had).

 

[primem0ver]

how about units could hide behind other units also it should take time for units to tell you where the enemy. also you could things like fog would appear like storms which could hide units

Interesting idea. But since troop placement in combat is not an aspect of the game, hiding a unit in combat would be moot (unless we used its invisibility as a bonus increase in its withdrawal chance).

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sure... we can take it one step at a time. I stand prepared to help with any promo or unit tag setups that become necessary here.

 

[primem0ver]

Just to give you an idea of how vision improvements work (and the fact that the AI can build them effectively in water)...

Here is a sonar buoy up close and personal:

Here is a picture demonstrating its vision range at the end of the tech tree. (Techs can increase a vision improvement's range). Notice also the spacing of the AI's buoys... which was appropriate considering their original vision range.

 

[Hydromancerx]

This looks cool. Of things we have already are ...

- Camouflage (A Promotion)
- Stealthy Units (Rogues, Thieves, Assassins, etc)
- Anti-Stealthy Units (Canines)
- Radar Stealth (Stealth Bomber, Stealth Submarine, Stealth Fighter, etc)
- Invisibility (Trans-Human Tech)

I could also see "Cloaking" for Galactic Era stuff to mask Spaceships.

 

[Nimek]

@hydro

We should add ambush - some very erly promotion:

Ambush
- invisible on forest/jungle/tundra (wood terrains)
- +1 first strike

 

[primem0ver]

Keep in mind that these buoys have the ability to see stealthed submarines up to a certain invisiblity level. However, the range for seeing stealthed units is LESS than that of regular units... Makes it more realistic!

@Thunderbrd
One thing I forgot to mention: the way stealth works currently, is through a series of tags with a number assigned to them. This allows the units to have different stealth types (such as submarine stealth, air stealth, and unit stealth) in a series. If we were to go totally number level based, we would have to change it so that each stealth type has a stealth class. Makes things a bit more complicated...

 

[Thunderbrd]

When you say a # assigned to them, do you mean the degree to which that unit is stealthy in stated manner? Or do you mean that the types are simply enumerated?

There should be different stealth types such as Depth for subs, Stealth for land units, UnderRadar for flight etc... but each should have a value system by which the perceiver's ability to perceive can be matched to the hider's ability to hide.

Then again, when you say 'buoys have the ability to see stealthed submarines up to a certain invisiblity level.' it sounds like each type of stealth gets its own measurable value on each unit. I believe you pretty much have, in concept, the same idea I do. All I want to be able to do is make those numbers highly manipulable on all units.

 

[primem0ver]

The best way to answer your question is to use this code excerpt from the Invisible infos xml file that I created for Warlords:

<InvisibleInfo>
	<Type>INVISIBLE_SILENTSUB</Type>
	<Description>TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_SILENTSUB</Description>
	<Domain>DOMAIN_SEA</Domain>
	<InferiorInvisibleType>INVISIBLE_NUCLEARSUB</InferiorInvisibleType>
	<iLevel>4</iLevel>
	<iSpyLevel>1</iSpyLevel>
	<bGraded>0</bGraded>
	<bAlwaysInvisible>0</bAlwaysInvisible>
	<bStatic>1</bStatic>
	<bSpy>1</bSpy>
	<bCity>0</bCity>
	<bTrees>0</bTrees>
	<bHills>0</bHills>
	<bPeaks>0</bPeaks>
	<CamoTerrains/>
	<CamoFeatures/>
</InvisibleInfo>

The iLevel tag defined the invisibility level. This invisible type was linked to the next one in the chain by the InferiorInvisibleType tag with an iLevel of 3 and so on until we reached one. (You might catch the inspiration of The Hunt for Red October here )

This allowed the creation of invisibility "chains" for each different type of invisibility system. Submarines were one chain, spies were another, etc... A unit in a series defined by this chaining structure could see all units of the same or lesser iLevel but only if the unit was in the same series. That way, a submarine of a higher iLevel could not see a spy of a lesser iLevel.

I don't think I ended up using the "spy" tag though I meant it to be taken literally.
The rest of the tags were for the camouflage aspect to designate which terrains/features the units were invisible.

Earlier, I suggested using invisible classes as a way to keep the chains separate. Doing this would also allow a unit such as a spy to see multiple chains. (Inferior values of both spies and camouflaged units for instance).

 

[Hydromancerx]

@hydro

We should add ambush - some very erly promotion:

Ambush
- invisible on forest/jungle/tundra (wood terrains)
- +1 first strike

I don't know about tundra but i could see forest/jungle/bamboo. Actual terrain features rather than terrains.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Earlier, I suggested using invisible classes as a way to keep the chains separate. Doing this would also allow a unit such as a spy to see multiple chains. (Inferior values of both spies and camouflaged units for instance).

I see what you mean now. And yes... the above would represent the vision I have had in mind for this for some time now and would reflect the accuracy of strategic depth that I feel we should be seeking in C2C.

 

[IronClaymore]

(You might catch the inspiration of The Hunt for Red October here )

This allowed the creation of invisibility "chains" for each different type of invisibility system. Submarines were one chain, spies were another, etc... A unit in a series defined by this chaining structure could see all units of the same or lesser iLevel but only if the unit was in the same series. That way, a submarine of a higher iLevel could not see a spy of a lesser iLevel.

The moment I started reading this thread I immediately thought of Red October. The sonubuoys were what did it.

However I can see the merit of units of a certain chain seeing others of a different chain, in some circumstances. My mate used to fly drones in Afghanistan, the Aussie ones armed only with cameras (the most deadly weapon) not missiles, to locate insurgents for the infantry to go after. Similar to how I use wardogs to find assassins for my light cavalry to hunt, but air units locating ground units. So, military satellites, spy planes, drones, all could help find hidden units. Ooh, I would love some military spy satellites to find enemy subs through their heat signatures. Even better, a spy mission to steal the location of the enemy's special forces and nuclear missile subs so I can sneak in a pre-emptive strike and destroy their nuclear first strike capability.

Remember also, in The Hunt for Red October, we were introduced to that enlisted guy Jones (IIRC), on the American sub. He could find Red October because he was such an excellent sonarman. So, if possible, the possibility should exist for promotions to increases a unit's <iLevel>, promotions available only through high experience, not free from buildings or technology.

 

[primem0ver]

Remember also, in The Hunt for Red October, we were introduced to that enlisted guy Jones (IIRC), on the American sub. He could find Red October because he was such an excellent sonarman. So, if possible, the possibility should exist for promotions to increases a unit's <iLevel>, promotions available only through high experience, not free from buildings or technology.

Good point. I don't like the idea of introducing concepts that may significantly increase processing time but... I have to admit, the principles are sound and would make for some nice, interesting options.