Grand Plan of the electoral Electoral College

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zjl56

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Ok I have seen some debate about the electoral college recently and here is what I think could help.
Each town in the U.S would get a certain amount of points for whoever wins the popular vote in that town. All the electoral votes from the towns would go to the counties. And each whichever canidate has the most electoral votes from the towns wins the county. And all the counties in the state would all put there points toward the state. Whoever has the most countie points wins the state.
This could work in the U.S for many things like electing the President. Electing Senators, Governors and Congressman. And all the points would be population wise.
Anyone like this idea or think it is unneeded?
 
It just sounds like a more complicated version of the electoral college. And what happens when a candidate wins a state? Is it the more states and the candidate wins? Because that is stupid.

BTW, Why the change from Prince to King?
 
Bad idea. it still retains the same fundemental bad points that plague the electoral system; those who live in a predominantly republican town would not bother to vote democrat.
 
Syterion said:
It just sounds like a more complicated version of the electoral college. And what happens when a candidate wins a state? Is it the more states and the candidate wins? Because that is stupid.

BTW, Why the change from Prince to King?
It would just be like the normal electoral college the states points would be based on population. I don't know why my thing changed I think it is just my post count.
 
But that does nothing, it magnifies the problems, actually. Looking at my home state, every county is either one way or another, with your system, no point voting against the grain. And even if a candidate sweeps a little less than half the counties, if his opponent gains a bunch of larger counties by a hair, thus having a lower popular vote, the latter would still win. Votes truly would not matter.
 
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005582

Electoral College Mischief
How to make the 2000 Florida brouhaha look like a kerfuffle.

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

"The Electoral College is so 18th century," read a protester's T-shirt slogan before the Republican National Convention. Since the 2000 election dispute, serious people have sounded the same theme, including New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, who after Al Gore's defeat called for direct popular election of the President. But since America has survived as a democratic republic for more than two centuries, we're inclined to think the Founders got it right.

The rap against the Electoral College is that it's undemocratic. As one recent newspaper editorial complained, "The majority does not rule." Strictly speaking, that's not true. The Constitution requires a majority of electors to choose a President; otherwise, the House decides, which hasn't happened since 1824. True, the popular majority doesn't rule, but only one Presidential candidate--Samuel Tilden, in the disputed election of 1876--has ever lost while exceeding 50% of the popular vote.

Under direct popular election, the majority often would not rule either. In six postwar elections--1948, 1960, 1968, 1992, 1996 and 2000--no candidate had a popular majority. If it's an outrage against majority rule that President Bush was elected while receiving only 47.9% of the popular vote, would it be that much less so if Mr. Gore had won with 48.4%? And what about Bill Clinton, who mustered a mere 43% of the popular vote in 1992?

This points to one of the Electoral College's great virtues: Under normal circumstances, it strengthens the Presidency by transforming a popular plurality into a majority, or a majority into a bigger majority. Mr. Clinton's 370-168 electoral victory over George H.W. Bush in 1992 put to rest any doubt about the new President's legitimacy. In every election since 1828, when popular balloting for Presidential electors became the rule almost everywhere, the winner's proportion of electoral votes has been higher than his share of the popular vote. Only three times--in 1876, 1888 and 2000--have the popular and electoral votes diverged.

Direct popular election would also vastly increase the risk of corruption and electoral disputes. With every vote competing directly against every other vote, dishonest politicians everywhere would have an incentive to engage in fraud on behalf of their parties. And a close race would make the 2000 Florida brouhaha look like a kerfuffle. Every one of the nation's 3,066 counties could expect to be overrun by lawyers demanding recounts.





Similar objections apply to a mischievous measure that will appear on Colorado's ballot this November. It would divide the state's nine electoral votes according to each candidate's proportion of the popular vote, so that if, as expected, Mr. Bush carries the Centennial State, John Kerry would still pick up three or four votes.
Supporters argue this is a more democratic way of doing things. But if this system had been in effect nationwide in 2000, Mr. Gore would have edged out Mr. Bush, 269-263, with Ralph Nader picking up six electoral votes, all in large states. This would have thrown the election to the House, where Mr. Bush presumably would have won--unless Mr. Gore managed to manufacture a plurality in Florida, which would have swung one electoral vote and increased his total to 270, a bare majority.

But Mr. Bush could have waged his own challenges to the vote in places like New Mexico, where he was 366 votes short of a plurality, and Hawaii, where an extra 137 votes would have given him an additional elector under the proposed Colorado system. Columnist George Will has calculated that nationwide proportional allocation of electors would have thrown the elections of 1948, 1968 and 1992 to the House.

The Colorado initiative is a transparently partisan effort to give Mr. Kerry a few additional electoral votes, and Coloradans, even those who support the Democrat, would be foolish to back a measure that would diminish their state's influence by taking most of its electoral votes out of play.





The effort to institute direct popular election of the President is also likely to go nowhere. That's because the Electoral College benefits two groups of states--sparsely populated ones, whose representation in the College is disproportionately high relative to their populations, and closely divided "swing" states like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, where both parties have a decent shot at winning.
Based on 2000 Census data and election results, only 11 states are both populous and politically monolithic enough that their influence would grow with popular election of the President: California, Texas, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Massachusetts, Indiana and Maryland. Amending the Constitution to abolish the Electoral College would require the assent of 38 state legislatures, so at least 27 of them would have to vote against the interests of their own states.

No President has ever won re-election after "losing the popular vote." If Mr. Bush does so, and if the GOP holds both the House and Senate, we could be in the early stages of a prolonged period of Republican majority government. Democrats doubtless will try to explain away Republican success as the product of an "undemocratic" fluke in 2000. Given the futility of the campaign against the Electoral College, one suspects it is less a serious effort at reform than a pre-emptive attempt to rewrite history.
 
Why should I count as half a person voting here in California relative to a voter in Wyoming? This article doesn't anwser that question. Where is the rational democratic logic in that?
 
Your vote should count as less because the college is representing states, not people. I think it should stay but turn to proportional with like 10x as many electors as now. Give the small parties some as well as the big.
P.S. I live in NY and am mostly Dem. like the state but so I would end up losing.
 
If so many people oppose the current voting system in the USA, how come I've never heard of anyone making even the slightest inclination of a future desire to consider reviewing changing it?

Oh wait, cos the two mainstream political parties would lose out.
 
HighlandWarrior said:
But since America has survived as a democratic republic for more than two centuries, we're inclined to think the Founders got it right.
During one millenium France had been a monarchy, is that enough to say the system was right ?

If it's an outrage against majority rule that President Bush was elected while receiving only 47.9% of the popular vote, would it be that much less so if Mr. Gore had won with 48.4%? And what about Bill Clinton, who mustered a mere 43% of the popular vote in 1992?
The same is true to get each state electoral votes. Indeed in half of US states, the candidate who won the electoral votes didn't get more than 50% popular votes. What is true at a national scale is also true at each state scale, which makes this argument totally irrelevant.

Only three times--in 1876, 1888 and 2000--have the popular and electoral votes diverged.
Three times is already way too much. The point of an election is that "we the people" decide who they want to lead the country. In 1876, 1888 and 2000, the elected president has not been elected by the American people. I can't believe people can still defend the system after three massive failures.

Direct popular election would also vastly increase the risk of corruption and electoral disputes. With every vote competing directly against every other vote, dishonest politicians everywhere would have an incentive to engage in fraud on behalf of their parties. And a close race would make the 2000 Florida brouhaha look like a kerfuffle. Every one of the nation's 3,066 counties could expect to be overrun by lawyers demanding recounts.
I don't understand this. There's no logical consistency in this thing. It's harder to organize an enough massive fraud at a national scale to be able to win over the other candidate than to do it at a smaller state scale.

The Colorado initiative is a transparently partisan effort to give Mr. Kerry a few additional electoral votes, and Coloradans, even those who support the Democrat, would be foolish to back a measure that would diminish their state's influence by taking most of its electoral votes out of play.
The system of the "winner takes all" is the most unfair electoral process which exist in the whole Western world. Because of the "winner takes all" system, it is purely and simply useless to vote in the majority of US states !

Do you realize Highland Warrior that the election of your president affects only people living in 18 of the 50 US states ? How can you defend this ? There had been almost no campaign in states as huge as Texas or New York simply because we don't care of the result since it's sure Bush will have more votes in the first one and Kerry will have more votes in the second.

This is that exact point which I'm really not able to rationalize. In each state of the US, if the candidate A has 42.5% of voice and the candidate B has 42%, it has the exact same impact on the final result than in the case A had 75% and B had 18%. How anyone could defend this ?

The effort to institute direct popular election of the President is also likely to go nowhere. [...] Amending the Constitution to abolish the Electoral College would require the assent of 38 state legislatures, so at least 27 of them would have to vote against the interests of their own states.
Welcome in the Banana Republic of America !

Given the futility of the campaign against the Electoral College, one suspects it is less a serious effort at reform than a pre-emptive attempt to rewrite history.
The "futility" of the campaign against the Electoral College ? Is the writer aware that he's actually considering the election of the US president by the US people as "futile" ?
 
slothman said:
Your vote should count as less because the college is representing states, not people. I think it should stay but turn to proportional with like 10x as many electors as now. Give the small parties some as well as the big.
P.S. I live in NY and am mostly Dem. like the state but so I would end up losing.
Slothman, you live in the state of New York. As such, Kerry has already won your state and there's no point for you to vote. Indeed, the "winner takes all" system has as consequence that there's no difference in case Kerry wins with 40% or with 75% of votes. You will be only a spectator of the election of your president, and you are comfortable with this ?
 
Mise said:
If so many people oppose the current voting system in the USA, how come I've never heard of anyone making even the slightest inclination of a future desire to consider reviewing changing it?

Oh wait, cos the two mainstream political parties would lose out.

I don't think that's the main problem. I think this system will never change because it's very difficult to change the USA constitution.

A change is only possible if :
- 2/3 of the members of the House of Parliament approve it.
- 2/3 third of the members of the Senate approve it.

And very important
- 3/4 of the States ratify such a change.

Because small States will probably not accept that the power they have now will be reduced, it's very unlikely that the current system will be changed.

You can also ask the question how important it is that the electoral college system will be changed. In the history of the USA president elections in only a few elections the winner of the elections didn't win the popular vote. So in almost all elections the winner as decided by the electoral college system will also be the winner of the popular vote.

OTOH I think that the people who support it overemphasize the importance of the electoral college. They are afraid that the big states will screw the small states if the EC will be abolished. I don't understand that point because laws are made by Congress, and in the Senate the small States have just as much power as big States. So IMO that arguement is more emotional than logical.
 
zjl65 said:
Ok I have seen some debate about the electoral college recently and here is what I think could help.
Each town in the U.S would get a certain amount of points for whoever wins the popular vote in that town. All the electoral votes from the towns would go to the counties. And each whichever canidate has the most electoral votes from the towns wins the county. And all the counties in the state would all put there points toward the state. Whoever has the most countie points wins the state.
This could work in the U.S for many things like electing the President. Electing Senators, Governors and Congressman. And all the points would be population wise.
Anyone like this idea or think it is unneeded?
The point of the Presidential elections is that American people determine who they want as President right ? :coffee:

Then let them decide for God's sake ! :wallbash:
 
Marla_Singer said:
The point of the Presidential elections is that American people determine who they want as President right ? :coffee:

Then let them decide for God's sake ! :wallbash:

I don't know if this post is directed at me, but because you just posted after me I guess it is and therefore I will reply.

1) AFAIK I have never told the Americans how they should vote. And if I should have done that, then they shouldn't listen to me.

2) This is an international board. The Americans like to discuss their elections. I take the time to read their posts, check articles, read their constitution etc.
Do I have the right then to give my opinion, yes opinion not more than that ?
IMO I have.

3) I believe you are also commenting on the EC system in another thread. (if necessary I will give you a link ;))
So you are allowed to do it, and I not ?

Regards :)
 
@AVN :

I was answering to the initial thread poster zjl56. Sorry if you thought it was directed to you.

But anyway, to answer to you, the electoral college has an effect on the elections which is much more massive than you expect. Indeed, in the majority of US states, there is simply no point to vote since we already know who will be the local winner of electoral votes. As such, it leads people to abstain massively during the election. What's the point to go out of his job in the middle of a tuesday when in the end we already know the winner ?

I consider this as the major bias of the system.

And the point of my post, just above yours, is that the best way for American people to determine their president is to decide directly.

EDIT : I have quoted zjl65 so that people could know it wasn't targetted to you. :)
 
Marla_Singer said:
@AVN :

I was answering to the initial thread poster zjl56. Sorry if you thought it was directed to you.

Apology accepted :)

But anyway, to answer to you, the electoral college has an effect on the elections which is much more massive than you expect. Indeed, in the majority of US states, there is simply no point to vote since we already know who will be the local winner of electoral votes. As such, it leads people to abstain massively during the election. What's the point to go out of his job in the middle of a tuesday when in the end we already know the winner ?

I consider this as the major bias of the system.

I don't know if this is a major reason for people for not voting.
These elections are not only for the president of the USA, but also for a lot of other functions, Senators, Representatives, Gouvernors, Members of State Parliaments, etc. I have read somewhere that in certain places people have to cast 40-50 votes. I don't think all those elections are already decided. And if one goes to the polling-station to vote then I don't think it costs much time to fill in an additional box.


And the point of my post, just above yours, is that the best way for American people to determine their president is to decide directly.

EDIT : I have quoted zjl65 so that people could know it wasn't targetted to you. :)

Thank you for clarifying. I interpreted it (it's clear now that I did that wrongly, sorry) as that Europeans shouldn't comment in USA elections threads.
 
AVN said:
I don't know if this is a major reason for people for not voting.
These elections are not only for the president of the USA, but also for a lot of other functions, Senators, Representatives, Gouvernors, Members of State Parliaments, etc. I have read somewhere that in certain places people have to cast 40-50 votes. I don't think all those elections are already decided. And if one goes to the polling-station to vote then I don't think it costs much time to fill in an additional box.
Don't you get the point ?

There's no difference for each state if the candidate A wins with a 0.5% margin or with a 25% margin, the winner takes all !!!

There had been almost no election campaign in the majority of the states because both sides knew it didn't worth it since the result is given.

Without any Electoral college, there would be a purpose in campaigning all over the country because the vote of each american would count ! There wouldn't be any place where it would be revealed as irrelevant to campaign or to vote ! The electoral college profoundly changes the way to do politics and that is made in a direction which is totally against the interests of the voters !
 
Just leave it to the Supreme Court, so you leave all the expenses to bureaucracy, spin doctors, media campaigns and wasting peoples time and money walking to the election booths. Or just take inspiration from Imperial Rome or the Old Republic of Star Wars....
After Florida, USA got a global credibiity problem.
 
Marla_Singer said:
Don't you get the point ?

Madame, don't worry, I do understand your point :)

There's no difference for each state if the candidate A wins with a 0.5% margin or with a 25% margin, the winner takes all !!!

I'm aware of that :)
There had been almost no election campaign in the majority of the states because both sides knew it didn't worth it since the result is given.

Valid point :)
Without any Electoral college, there would be a purpose in campaigning all over the country because the vote of each american would count !

Yes, that's probably correct :)
There wouldn't be any place where it would be revealed as irrelevant to campaign or to vote !

Again, I agree :)
The electoral college profoundly changes the way to do politics and that is made in a direction which is totally against the interests of the voters !

I agree that IMO the electoral college system is outdated.
A popular vote would be more fair to all Americans, but for a number of mostly emotional reasons (at least that's my explanation) the Americans will probaly not change it.

At that moment the question should be : is the current EC system really so unfair ? Because in more than 90% of the elections the result of the EC system and the popular vote were the same, it's my opinion that the answer is no.

But I can agree to disagree :)

Regards :)

AVN
 
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