Grand Strategy Thread

SoZ takes 2 turns.

The only outlying island that we can settle without risk of drowning is to our north. That's towards SABER.
The southern island is towards FREE. We can try to have our galley cross the water towards this island. But we need to have two galleys in different locations down there to safely get units across to the island.
 
We should revolt to Republic right after reaching the Middle Ages.
We won't be able to build a barracks in The Academy before the first AC is trained, but I guess we'll find some barbs for training purposes :rolleyes:

The SoZ might be convincing BABE to go after SABER if they are not prepared yet - or to go after us if they can strike within ~20 turns. Four ACs really can't cope with ten MW and the SoZ is a nice bounty... :(

FREE and SABER I would like to offer financial support in case of an attack. Maybe they offer it back... :rolleyes:
 
I'm tossing out an idea here:

1. All scientific civs announce Defense Cooperation pacts. If one is attacked, the other two will assist as much as possible.
2. All scientific civs boycott tech trading with Babe. They have the Great Lighthouse, and if any of us add to that advantage by helping them climb up the tech tree, then one or two of us will likely fall.

What was it that Benjamin Franklin once said? "We must hang together or we will surely hang separately."

I don't know if we could get Saber to agree to that - FREE and we would likely have to compensate them for removing a potential trading partner.
 
I'm also tossing an idea here: :D

We'll want lots of H'Watchas. While it's illegal to "share" arties with an ally by using it twice every turn against a common enemy, it's not explicitely forbidden to capture foreign artillery units to spare unit upkeep. :p
Spoiler :
from the ruleset:
2.1 - Coordinated Capturing of Units
It is prohibited for teams to capture and recapture each turn units such as workers, catapults, and other non-combat units for the intent of using them twice in a turn against another team.

IIRC it was discussed regarding trade of workers and it was ruled okay because slaves are less productive than native workers.

If we found an agreement to capture cats from FREE (or SABER?) for Gold, tech, workers, whatever - we could get quite a cheap army. :D
I really would consider this a banned exploit because compared to worker - slaves foreign artilleries iirc are not less effective than natives. But it is certainly not banned - Should we do this? I'm quite torn. :dunno:
 
I thought foreign artys cost upkeep, no? :hmm:
 
You mean, be at war for the purpose of capturing each others artillery?

that's not banned, but I would *have* to think that is against the spirit of the game.
 
Even if it's allowed, I don't think it'd be honourable enough for the Council to do that. But then again, in war anything the Meleet does not forbid is allowed...

edit: same time post with at
 
Even if it's possible, I'd agree that it would be against the spirit of the game.

Clever idea though :clap:
 
I'm a little unclear about what is being proposed here... but the easiest way to clarify the issue is to submit a private message to the admins, and request a ruling. The letter should delineate precisely the mechanics involved, and the intended effect / result. This sort of 'grey' situation came up a couple of times in the last game, and the admins were very attentive to our concerns.

So, even if we're just exploring a possibility that we may not want to pursue, assuming it's legal, I think an admin request is the proper way to proceed.
 
We won't have to consult the admins if we have a consensus that we don't want to exploit that.

I'm pretty sure this is not illegal though, otherwise it would have been ruled out either in the "trade worker" discussion or in the "shared artillery" discussion. ;)

Three reasons why I consider this a minor exploit:

And artillery does not frequently occur in multi player games I guess. Unless it's featuring Korea. :D

We won't be able to trade arties big time as we are certainly the only civ building them unless we ask someone to build them for us. :rolleyes:

And the "deal" would always involve a war which is a problem for other trades. Can you immediately sign peace again or is there also a minimum that the war must last before peace negotiations are possible? :confused:
 
I've tried to compile some ideas on how we can progress as an early Republic, and how to deal with the threat of overseas invasion. We will become a republic on turn 102, and we will (probably) have peace at least until turn 129.
Let's discuss this!

Road network and troop positioning

I've tried to set up a military road net in this map:
MTDG2_Strategy_earlyRepublic.jpg

The red roads are needed to connect our towns and two future ones, indicated by dark green and yellow dots. The cyan roads will speed up the movement of our units. (Some of the roads are under construction already.) Assuming all these roads are built, then a group of 2 move units (like horses) stationed at the lightgreen square (near The Treasury) can reach the area indicated by the lightgreen outline. This covers most of our important towns and I would make this the main army group. Two secondary defense groups stationed at the pink and orange squares would cover every other square. Of course, it may well be possible to find a better solution, for example where the most likely landing zones are covered by two groups.
Our warriors could be used to cover the high landing grounds, so that any attackers will be forced to land in the open. We have 8 coastal hill/mountain tiles, and 16 coastal forest/jungle/swamp tiles, so covering all this is a bit much.

Economy

Additional troops and other units require 2 gpt upkeep per turn. The best way to deal with this is to grow our towns to city size (i.e., at least 7 citizens). Each city supports 3 units for free, a town just 1. We need to be careful not to choke our economy with units.

Research

When we become a republic I would turn off research for a while, for two reasons:
  • A cash reserve is quite useful in Republic and helps to deal with sudden threats.
  • We will not be able to pour all income into research: some of it will have to go to tax to pay for unit upkeep. As we are still building some libraries, it is beneficial to postpone research so we profit as much as possible from the libraries.

I would try to time it such that we build up a bank account sufficient to fund full speed research (with deficit spending) up to Gunpowder or somewhat beyond.

Towns

Some suggestions for the role of each town. Towns in blue can and should (IMO) reach city size without aqueduct. Towns in red can reach city size without aqueduct, but their suggested role prevents that. All green towns need an aqueduct to grow to city size. I have indicated the corruption percentage under republic, assuming there is an FP in The Silo (but not taking into account the effect of unfounded towns).

  • The Chamber (corruption and waste 0%): I think we no longer need this town as a settler pump and are better off using it to train units. It can do 15 spt at size 8 for a 2-turn horse/pike pump (e.g., work the cow, 2 bgs, 1 sugar, 2 mined plains, forest, mined grass). It might be beneficial to mine the cow, then we can work the floodplains instead of a regular grass. Of course it needs to build a rax first. We can skim off a worker every time The Chamber grows too large.
  • The Admiralty (10%): because of its low corruption this town can use a library and an aqueduct soon. It will grow to size 7 in 30 turns, an aqueduct would take about 13 turns to build, a lib about 6. So we have some 10 turns to train units first, enough for 2 pikes/horse.
  • The Gulag (12%): By borrowing the wheat every other turn it should be possible to make this a 4 turn settler pump (size 4-6 probably).
  • The Bayou (13%): little corruption and excellent growth (+5 fpt pre-harbor), this town should probably start an aqueduct right away. Apart from that it can train some ships.
  • The Treasury (17%): wonder construction. It would be helpful if we mine the hills and irrigate some of the grass, but this is fairly low priority IMO because of low gains and high worker investment.
  • The Igloo (17%): With low corruption and decent commerce, this will be a good science town. I would finish the lib, after that no idea.
  • The Ways (25%): galleys? Maybe a temple or market?
  • The Pier (29%): Probably lib followed by aqueduct, maybe a galley, temple or market? This town will need some work.
  • The Silo (16%): FP should finish in 3 turns after the anarchy is over. This town can easily do 10 spt at size 7, but I don't see how to get to 15 spt unless we invest in a courthouse as well (and even then it seems hard to accomplish). I would like to see a lib, a rax and train units. The lib can of course wait until we restart research.
  • The Institute (28%): fairly corrupt but over time this seems an excellent production center to me. A court will be helpful to lower corruption to 20%, but a lib can wait. The forests can be chopped for a production boost. I'm not sure what to do here, perhaps first a courthouse?
  • The New Yard (40%): needs a lib and court, and a lot of work.
  • Chamsuri's Cove (32%): it should be possible to run this as a 4 turn worker pump at size 2-3.
  • The Aerie (31%): needs a lib and court, and a lot of work.
  • The Meeting Room (33%): needs a lib and court.
  • The Arboretum (35%): needs a lib and court, and a lot of work.
  • The Nursery (51%): don't know, a lib is always good in a coastal town to enhance vision.
  • The Greenhouse (51%): id.
  • Dark Green Dot (?): id.

In summary: The Chamber can be groomed as a military town right away and can be expected to produce around 10 units before turn 129. The Silo would probably do 6 or 7, if we postpone a library. The Admiralty 2, plus another 6 ACs. So these three alone will build 25 horse/pike, a rather respectable number. Note that we will need to grow 12-13 towns to city size just to support this! The list indicates that in the short run only about half a dozen towns will grow to city size, with another half dozen or so at a later stage. So it will not be easy at all to support more units, and more rax towns seems useless right now.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we'll need to start temples and cathedrals at some moment, in order to profit from The Chapel. Markets will also be useful.
 
Very nice zyxy! :thumbsup:

I'm not usually fond of shutting down research like you propose, but in this case, since we have FREE working the important side, I agree it will probably be beneficial. We should notify FREE that we do this, so they don't start to wonder what's taking so long with Invention. I too think max research up to Gunpowder is a good goal.

We should also remember that Education won't be all that far off, we should ask FREE about some predictions, so that we can start Unis in good time where needed.

I'm not sure about all the units, now that the threat has diminished I think we should keep an eye on BABE troop counts and adjust as we go.
 
A few thoughts, some useful, some not.

I think we will need to start throwing markets in some of these cities, as well.

I like the idea of the chamber spitting out horses - we don't need that many to make us pretty safe.

The road network is important - but I think maybe we should consider not putting them on the coast where it can be helped. If the road is on the coast, an invader could land a blocking force on the road and we can't reinforce a threatened city.

Specifically:

From the arboretum, cut roads as follows:
1) N, NE to The Meeting Room
2) NW x4 to The Greenhouse
3) NW, W, SW to Yellow Dot - eventually adding one through the swamp.

From The Treasury - I'm not sure about these.
1) SW, S x2 to The Pier
2) SW, S, SW to The New Yard


The Roads from The Institute work for me.

These might be faster to build, as well.
Connecting them will also reduce corruption, as they are not currently on the trade network.

When we place defensive units, we should probably put units on coastal roads for cities that don't have non-coastal roads.
 
I'm not sure I understand the part about shutting off research. My first impression is that we're about to sign a treaty that specifically says we're not to slow burn to stockpile gold. The treaty also says we agree to progress to th IA as fast as possible. If shutting off research gets us there faster then I'm all for it. But I think we need to have some numbers to back this up since we will be bound (assuming MAAP II is signed) to inform FREE of our progress. (By numbers I mean, it takes 30 turns to get to gunpowder, but if we shut off research for 5 turns then we can fund science and get gunpowder in 19 more turns - saving 6 turns. BTW, I just made these up - they have no basis in reality.)

We surely need a road network. AT's comments about blocking a coastal road combined with all those jungle tiles on the proposed main road make me think we should look for alternative routes. (I had a somewhat bad experience last game building a military road through the jungle.) If we were going to try to block the coast then a coastal road is called for. If we're going to station army groups in the interior then we need roads radiating from their bases to the coast.

zyxy's proposed city production plan doesn't leave much room for a navy. I'm a bit concerned about not having a decent naval force. It's going to be tough to balance our land and sea forces and economy - especially if SABER is attacked and we have to shell out 20gpt. What we really need to do is decide how big a force we need, get working on it and the ecomony to support it and then plan in frills like temples. (I think I'll look at the planning for an invasion thread for discussion on the needed size of our forces.)
 
Yes, the idea is to actually speed research up by shutting it down short term. Every commerce spent on research is more worth with a library than without, so commerce spent later counts more than commerce spent earlier. And since we cannot afford constant max research at any rate, it would be better to hoard the gold while we wait for the libs to finish, and then run at max science, eating up the hoard again. However, if we build markets at the same rate we build libs, the advantage is nullified.

But yes, we should have more concrete numbers to play with.
 
So, we have 17 cites and one settler right now for #18. zyxy estimates that half of these can grow to size 7 without aqueducts. That's (3*9)+9=36 units we can support for free. If we want 1.5 workers per city we'll need 27 workers (ten more than we have right now). If we have just four galleys for lookouts that leaves five units left for our defenses before we begin paying support costs. We'll probably need about twenty units in our defensive force so we're looking at about 30gpt in military expenses.

Looking at the city placement dot map it looks like we're planning on 27 cities total including our three islands. That's nine more settlers to make (5 for our homeland and 4 on islands). What if we let The Chamber grow (and make military) and then alternate between settlers and military while The Gulag continues to make workers?

I'd put The Admiraly on library and The Bayou on an aqueduct while building a couple galleys in The Ways.
 
I'd let The Chamber stay on settler duty. Could we do three-turn-settlers there? :hmm:
2 flood plains (+4), a cow (+3) and city center (+2) leave one surplus food missing, if we irrigate a grassland, we got +10fpt. The other two turns at +5fpt get the shields.

I really want to get our towns asap and also liked to have a shot for the islands. Even the southern one with a suicide galley!

Given the current military balance, we should seize the situation and focus on expansion. :old:
That would also relax our unit support costs as those islands would get some science farms.
 
wow. That's a great idea, Paul. Can we do it? I've never seen a 3 turn settler factory - I really, really like it!!

Wasn't there a SGOTM with a 2 turn settler fac!!??

One of the conquered capitals ifrc.
 
Yep, the Gandhi to Space gam. Team klarius captured Entremont and rushed the FP, plenty of sheep in the surrounding lands. Easy 10 fpt and 15 spt.
 
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