Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Oh sorry... a Guderian Great General for Germany.
[Graphic Mod] Varietas Delectat v9.2 [civ specific unit sets]
- Thread starter avain
- Start date
avain
(key)
Come to think of it, I'd like to see a Canaris Great Spy for Germany...
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
You mean a Canaris Great Spy for the Allies... that man betrayed his government! (at least from a Nazi standpoint)
avain
(key)
He cared for the interest of Germany, not the Nazis...
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Well Canaris did everything he could to help Germany lose the war... so whatever you want to call that... 
avain
(key)
It was a war already lost.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Canaris was screwing things up in 1939. The war was far from lost then.
That's what I thought when I saw him mentioned in my thread!
I will get on to Rommel eventually, I'll try to get him included in the update after this one.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
No problem... I can wait till the next update after this one for Rommel...
In the meantime, you think you could give Germany a Great General that looks like Manstein for this upcoming update!?!?!
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
It's a joke... just trying to see (any) German modern Great General actually appear... your mod still doesn't have a single modern German GG yet you know!So, you would rather several flavoured German generals to choose from rather than a flavoured general for each civilisation? I'm already making Rommel remember.
Rommel will be fine, but until you do so, your mod lacks a modern German GG!
avain
(key)
That's what I thought when I saw him mentioned in my thread!
I don't really get your point, or better yet, you are not getting mine. C'mon, people, I'm talking about no rocket science here... Is it so hard to imagine a great person for a country that opposes it's government? Is what he was doing greater evil to the German people as the Nazis? He was a prime example of a Great Spy in my opinion, if there was any. Also, I consider him a greater German than any of his Nazi counterparts.
BTW, in your terms Rommel was a traitor, too; he only did it a bit later...
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
I don't really get your point, or better yet, you are not getting mine.
I said Canaris was a traitor to his government (from a Nazi standpoint).
That's exactly what I said... if you can't get what I meant from that, there is no hope for you. His government (at the time) was the Nazis... he was doing everything he could to ruin them and bring them down, including losing the war.
I never said he was a bad man or someone who lacked compassion, or that in the end he did a bad/wrong thing... I simply stated that from a Nazi standpoint, the man was a traitor to his government... do you deny that?
Benedict Arnold was a traitor too... if he had succeeded and the Colonial Americans lost and America remained a British colony to this day, and we were happy and prosperous under the British flag, would that change the fact that Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his government?
If you Avain, think the Hungarian government is evil and hate them (not saying you do, just hypothosizing here) and think that Hungary would be better-off under Chinese communism, and you do everything to destabalize the government, sell secrets to the Chinese and align Hungary with a Chinese takeover... would that, or would that not make you a traitor to the Hungarian Government?
Who knows... maybe the Hungarian Government is evil and would be better off under Chinese communism... but it doesn't change the fact that it would make someone a traitor to the Hungarian Government if they worked towards that end.
Canaris did everything he could to destabilize the Nazis and force them to lose the war... I never said that was a bad thing... I simply stated he was a traitor to his government, which he was. One man's traitor is another man's hero... I never questioned the mans convictions, reasons or anything else... I simply stated a simple fact... he was a traitor to his government.
Not sure what Rommel has to do with the status of Canaris... he was aware of a plot and did not do anything about it (for or against)... I suppose by definition that would make him a traitor too... though not an active one like Canaris!
In any case, I agree Canaris would make a great ENGLISH SPY...
avain
(key)
I don't really get your point, or better yet, you are not getting mine.
I said Canaris was a traitor to his government (from a Nazi standpoint).
That's exactly what I said... if you can't get what I meant from that, there is no hope for you. His government (at the time) was the Nazis... he was doing everything he could to ruin them and bring them down, including losing the war.
I never said he was a bad man or someone who lacked compassion, or that in the end he did a bad/wrong thing... I simply stated that from a Nazi standpoint, the man was a traitor to his government... do you deny that?
Benedict Arnold was a traitor too... if he had succeeded and the Colonial Americans lost and America remained a British colony to this day, and we were happy and prosperous under the British flag, would that change the fact that Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his government?
If you Avain, think the Hungarian government is evil and hate them (not saying you do, just hypothosizing here) and think that Hungary would be better-off under Chinese communism, and you do everything to destabalize the government, sell secrets to the Chinese and align Hungary with a Chinese takeover... would that, or would that not make you a traitor to the Hungarian Government?
Who knows... maybe the Hungarian Government is evil and would be better off under Chinese communism... but it doesn't change the fact that it would make someone a traitor to the Hungarian Government if they worked towards that end.
Canaris did everything he could to destabilize the Nazis and force them to lose the war... I never said that was a bad thing... I simply stated he was a traitor to his government, which he was. One man's traitor is another man's hero... I never questioned the mans convictions, reasons or anything else... I simply stated a simple fact... he was a traitor to his government.
Not sure what Rommel has to do with the status of Canaris... he was aware of a plot and did not do anything about it (for or against)... I suppose by definition that would make him a traitor too... though not an active one like Canaris!
In any case, I agree Canaris would make a great ENGLISH SPY...
Obviously you make your statements solely on the fact that he was a traitor to the Nazi government; and that was only the last years of his life and even that's half-true: at first he did work for the Nazis and believed in them.
Your analogy with Benedict Arnold is also standing on fragile legs(I suppose this is not an English expression, sorry
), simply because America is not a British colony today and also Germany is not a Nazi state today. Both facts are met with cheers from the majority of their respective civs; ie. no sane German would like to have Hitler as their president; and also you are quite happy with George W. Bush as the President of USA, which is of course a nice thing!Also, I could list quite a lot of great people that were traitors to their respective government and still regarded as great people by their nation.
What makes me think that Canaris would be a good GERMAN Great Spy is:
- In 1905, aged seventeen, Canaris joined the German Imperial Navy and by the outbreak of World War I had become an officer serving on board the SMS Dresden as intelligence officer.This cruiser was the only ship that managed to evade the British Fleet for a prolonged period during the Battle of the Falkland Islands in December 1914, largely due to his excellent deception tactics. Whilst anchored in Cumberland Bay, the Dresden was trapped and forced to scuttle by the British. Most of the crew became prisoners in Chile in March 1915, but Canaris escaped in August 1915, using his perfect, fluent Spanish; with the aid of some German merchants he returned to Germany.
- He was then given intelligence work and sent to Spain, where he survived a British assassination attempt.
- Returning to active service, he ended the war as a celebrated U-boat commander in the Mediterranean, credited with eighteen sinkings.
- Canaris was made head of the Abwehr
- During the period 1935-36, he made contacts in Spain to organize a German spy network there. His excellent Spanish made him the very man for the job. He was the moving force behind the decision that sided Germany with Francisco Franco during the Spanish Civil War, despite Hitler's initial hesitation to get involved in such an adventure
- By 1938, however, he had realised that Hitler's policies and plans would lead Germany to disaster and secretly began to work against the régime.
This this last fact disqualifies him as a Great German (Spy)?
He could be a Great Spy for Germany, based on what he did before he starting plotting against them - but if you count his treachery then he can't possibly be a German Great Spy. At the time of his treachery I hardly think that most Germans would have thought him "Great" and as Wolfi said, he helped Germany lose the war. Good for Germany? Sif. 
Sif.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Avain... you are somehow trying to turn this into moral justification... you're on a moral crusade, while I'm simply stating facts.
Canaris was a traitor to his government... flat-out. It doesn't matter what he did before for the Nazi cause... if you're loyal for 10 years, then stab them stab them in the back, does that make you less of a traitor?
I'm simply stating a fact, which you refuse to acknowledge, and try to obscure behind a cloth of moral victory for the greater good.
I do not speak of morality, which is all you are obsessed about... I simply have stated (repeatedly to a deaf audience) that Canaris betrayed his government, the Nazis.
You can justify it all you want... you can claim moral decency all you want... it does not change the fact he was a traitor to his government. That's just a simple fact, and you can pretend the term does not apply all you want, but he was a traitor to his government... justified or not, it is the truth.
By definition, a "Traitor" is a person who commits "Treason"... "Treason" by definition is the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign... which Canaris surely did. Of this there is no doubt... you can morally obscure or justify it all you want, but it does not change the fact that Canaris was a traitor to the Nazis.
Is being a traitor to the Nazis a bad thing? You seem to want to argue that point.
Canaris was a traitor to his government... flat-out. It doesn't matter what he did before for the Nazi cause... if you're loyal for 10 years, then stab them stab them in the back, does that make you less of a traitor?
I'm simply stating a fact, which you refuse to acknowledge, and try to obscure behind a cloth of moral victory for the greater good.
I do not speak of morality, which is all you are obsessed about... I simply have stated (repeatedly to a deaf audience) that Canaris betrayed his government, the Nazis.
You can justify it all you want... you can claim moral decency all you want... it does not change the fact he was a traitor to his government. That's just a simple fact, and you can pretend the term does not apply all you want, but he was a traitor to his government... justified or not, it is the truth.
By definition, a "Traitor" is a person who commits "Treason"... "Treason" by definition is the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign... which Canaris surely did. Of this there is no doubt... you can morally obscure or justify it all you want, but it does not change the fact that Canaris was a traitor to the Nazis.
Is being a traitor to the Nazis a bad thing? You seem to want to argue that point.
avain
(key)
I accept that there are moral tones in my arguments, sorry about that.
All your points are taken, and I understand your viewpoint.
What you don't seem to understand is to draw correct analogies:
- Let's just check Columbus for example. Was he a great explorer? No doubt about it. Did he betray the Spanish? No doubt about it. Good for Spanish Yes, he started the colonization, but at that time, for the Government, he was a Traitor.
All your points are taken, and I understand your viewpoint.
What you don't seem to understand is to draw correct analogies:
- Let's just check Columbus for example. Was he a great explorer? No doubt about it. Did he betray the Spanish? No doubt about it. Good for Spanish
Yes, he started the colonization, but at that time, for the Government, he was a Traitor.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
That's why we consider Columbus a Great Explorer... not a Great Spy.I accept that there are moral tones in my arguments, sorry about that.
All your points are taken, and I understand your viewpoint.
What you don't seem to understand is to draw correct analogies:
- Let's just check for Columbus for example. Was he a great explorer? No doubt about it. Did he betray the Spanish. No doubt about it. Good for Spanish
avain
(key)
That's why we consider Columbus a Great Explorer... not a Great Spy.
For the Spanish
Also, in this regard, Canaris did manage to do his plotting against the Nazis at the time - which is no small feat. Does this need the qualities of a great spy? Yes. Good for the Nazi German government? Who cares?
avain
(key)
Also, this is very simple. Even you do not deny he was a Great Spy, you simply deny the fact that he's fitting for Germany.
On the very same ground you could argue about Columbus and all other great people that betrayed their respective governments.
On the very same ground you could argue about Columbus and all other great people that betrayed their respective governments.
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