Graphics Modding in Civ4: Looking to the future

[Dom Pedro II]

Today has brought us yet more screenshots for Civilization 4. One of the reasons I have not been as active here as I was in the past is because I felt like maybe it was time to start looking to the next generation. Civ4 seems like it will greatly expand the options for the modder.

Unfortunately, the price we have had to pay is that the graphics are going to render 4 years of work on Civ3 completely obsolete. I'm going to finish up a few unfinished works and then I am through with Civ3. I think Civ4, for a modder, will be what Civ3 was hoped to be by many of us five years ago.

However, we face something of a crisis in the coming months. Those of us who have been cutting and pasting units and using 3D modeling programs that cannot export figures, will be unable to contribute to the graphics for Civ4. This will probably halve our capabilities for making Civ4 units... even worse, the other graphics... the cities, the terrain, that so many have put so much work into using Photoshop and Paintshop will also be unable to make more cities and terrain graphics.

Even the fantastic wonder splashes will be replaced by movies, though it will probably be possible to insert a still frame and have the game play that.

It's a really unpleasant thought to think that all this work is not going to be able to transfer over (I know that's the way many must have felt when Civ3 came out and Civ2 became a thing of the past). At that time, I only modded with other people's graphics, so I wouldn't know.

But we have a few choices: We can wait and let Civ4 scatter us about as we try to figure out how to make it work piecemeal, we can ignore Civ4 and keep using Civ3 eventhough I can tell you right now that I will not, or we can organize now and be prepared for the coming changes.

One of the nice things about 3D graphics, and I think all who make units will agree, no more rendering! No more palettes! No more storyboards!
Now we can really focus on the "fun" stuff without thinking of the tediousness of compiling our animations into working .FLCs.

Some important questions:

Can we transfer over our saved models to Civ4?
The answer is yes and no. One of the disadvantages to 3D graphics as opposed to 2D graphics is that 3D graphics are not pre-rendered. With 2D graphics that have been pre-rendered, they're smooth and detailed... 3D graphics on the other hand, when viewed up close appear much more coarse by comparison. This is because of what we call polygons. Maybe someday when computers are much faster 3D games will be able to utilize models with a similar polygon count like what we use for rendering graphics in Poser, 3DS Max, etc.

However, right now... Poser users will probably have to reduce their polygon counts by as much as 90%, many of those who make their own models may have to reduce them by 50%, and some may not have to reduce them at all. So that means that many of us are going to have to start reworking some of our existing models, and in all likelihood, we're going to have to make a whole new generation of human models. It also means that we're going to have to focus more on textures than on geometry... In the past, if we were making a Mountain Man, for example, we might have a powder horn model attached to his belt... now, we will probably have to trim it down to just a texture of a powder horn (for example).

What can 2D artists do?

As I just said, we are going to have to rely more on textures... textures for units, terrain, tile improvements, city improvements, cities, resources, etc. etc. We 3D modelers will require textures far more detailed than anything we really bothered with in the past. In fact, the same human model could be given new skins to create completely unique units. So 2D artists will have a new role in which they can modify existing models that come with the game, or help 3D modelers with their projects.

Can't draw? Can't sculpt? What can you do?

We need information. We need people to catalogue existing units (from any site) so we know what needs to be replaced... and so we can figure out what can be used now, what will have to be modified, and what will have to be replaced from scratch. We need to know what artists have what models left (some of us have deleted some of them unfortunately).

We also need information about how the Gamebryo engine works and what we need to do to make a unit work... even better, if we can get somebody who has used the Gamebryo engine before. All of this information needs to be compiled...

Also the game will open up a lot of new unit types with new features that made certain kinds of units pointless in Civ3, so...... *SIGH* you should probably also work on unit and other graphic requests too...


I've created a Yahoo! Group called the Civilization Artists Union that might be a good place to make the hub of the Civ4 conversion process. That way we won't need to clutter up the forums here. Anybody can join, you don't even need me to approve your membership this time. And as soon as you get in, you can start posting too. PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! OUR 3D ARTISTS, PLEASE JOIN THE GROUP!

Anyway, teamwork, people. Teamwork is the key!

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Well, I've lurked in the Civ IV fourms, and I don't like how that game is heading in the slightest. I mean it was bad enough that the RTS game makers had to jump on the 3D bandwagon, but now the turn based strategy game makers are as well. I mean WTH? why the heck do you need 3D graphics for what is essentially an over-glorified board game?! I'll definitely be staying with Civ III to the bitter end, than you very much. Those who want to waste hundreds of hours trying to work with a $3000 3D program and muck through a bunch of byzantine scripting to modify a $50 game can feel free to do so. I'll just stick with modding the games I like, namely Civ III.

 

[vbraun]

What people that can't make any graphics do, is write code (XML and Python). That's what I'm going to spend most of the first few months after Civ4 comes out doing.

And there are some good 3d programs, and I'm pretty sure we will be able to use those to make graphics.

 

[WildWeazel]

No more palettes!

Unfortunately I won't be able to do any work with CIV for quite a while, or even play it for that matter. What I will do when I finally begin is uncertain. I have limited artistic and programming skills now, but in the next couple of years that may change. I will most likely stick to modding, with the game editor and XML editor, maybe some Python scripting. I don't see myself getting into 3D graphic design, but it's possible. What I do know is that I will not lightly abandon Civ3, the source of my labor, frustration, and entertainment for the last 5 years.

 

[Neomega]

Well, I am in the same boat as you Dom Pedro II.

No real creations from me latley for civ III because low-poly, high dteail graphics is difficult, and a much different game than 2d graphics.

The commercial app of choise would probably be 3ds max.

From the looks of things, they do not appear to be using and rgb normal mapping, or bump mapping or other texture mapping tricks. Just regular UV mapping.

A good modeller will need to learn how to make a UV map that can be painted easily by a texture artist, if they wish to have someone else do that (IMO) tedious chore.

Animation, and armature exporting will be another challenge, as well as special effects like smoke and such. I only know from what I have learned trying to make OGRE compatible models and animations, but I doubt any 3d exporter will be able to export particle animations like smoke. Armatures is a "maybe".

There is still lots of time to learn the in's and out's of 3d game modelling.

Converting models may not be too hard. The trick would be to find a script or program that "bakes" the shading of the high poly model to the low poly model.

I intend to stick with Blender and 3ds exporters, but if I have to, I will buy 3ds max to continue modding.

The gamebryo engine can support all sorts of neat stuff.... I am just not sure the civ IV engine will.

 

[muffins]

I intend to stick with Blender and 3ds exporters, but if I have to, I will buy 3ds max to continue modding.

If you buy 3ds max then do what I did and get a second-hand box from ebay. Discreet sell a lot of cut-price not-for-commercial-use licensed boxes that do turn up there on occation. I picked up mine for £20

 

[Yoda Power]

I mean it was bad enough that the RTS game makers had to jump on the 3D bandwagon, but now the turn based strategy game makers are as well. I mean WTH? why the heck do you need 3D graphics for what is essentially an over-glorified board game?!

In the end it is way cooler to play in a 3D world. The feeling is much more intense.

As far as I understand, users with the normal animation programs will still be able to create graphics for civ, so it's really only the 2D artists that suffer. A few things like interface could probably still be changed, but I'm not sure.

 

[aaglo]

As a pov-ray user, I'm not happy at all for the civ4 being in 3d. Which means, that all my work will not be trasferred to civ4.

And what comes of palettes & storyboards: they never given me any trouble whatsoever, so I don't find the "avoiding pallette & storyboards" as any kind of bonus either.

But as DP II said, I yet might become helpful in making textures for future units. Who knows

I think that I won't stop making graphics to civ3 for quite some time.

 

[The Great Apple]

Converting models may not be too hard. The trick would be to find a script or program that "bakes" the shading of the high poly model to the low poly model.

I think this does the trick, though I believe it only works for max: http://www.nvidia.com/object/melody_home.html

As for Civ 4 modding - there will a far great possability of taking units designed for other games (which also use the gamebryo engine), and directly importing them into Civ.

 

[Neomega]

I think this does the trick, though I believe it only works for max: http://www.nvidia.com/object/melody_home.html

As for Civ 4 modding - there will a far great possability of taking units designed for other games (which also use the gamebryo engine), and directly importing them into Civ.

Yes Meldoy will work for .3ds (or I hear) for .obj files (though I never read it in the documentation). If melody is used, however, it makes your UV map for you, which could make actual painting difficult. Blander currently has a script which avoids these conflicts, but I have not tested it extensively yet.

But Melody is the reason I would buy Max over Maya.

 

[Neomega]

If you buy 3ds max then do what I did and get a second-hand box from ebay. Discreet sell a lot of cut-price not-for-commercial-use licensed boxes that do turn up there on occation. I picked up mine for £20

Are you working in Max instead of Open FX now?

 

[Mobilize]

I'm not really an artist, but I am more of an information informant to the Civ III C&C forums. I had left the forums because I took a hiatus from my internet hobbies. I returned here a few weeks ago after all the Civ4 information and screens were given out. I am disgusted. I absolutely favor Civ3's graphics over Civ4's the same reason Hikaro Takayama does.

Honestly, I had hoped for Civ4 to be a major patch/expansion to Civ3. That's all I really wanted Civ4 to become. The gameplay in Civ3 seems to either be too cluttered, or to sparse. I don't like the cartoonish way the game was turned out to look, in fact.. I loathe it. Blizzard did the same thing with Warcraft3 which made me turned off from that game.

Civilization is too close to being an RTS now. I liked Civilization for being a slow yet glorious journey from your people's beginnings to their demise or their dominance. I liked imagining myself as the leader, I liked to imagine taking place in my people's lifestyles and subliminal lives. I liked to place a civil war or two in every game where I would sacrifice my own soldiers pretending they were fighting eachother. This is what I had hoped Civ4 to be, and now it's more about combat and looks.

I'll purchase Civ4 and test it out, but I'll probably neglect it and return to Civ3. I would feel like a traitor, if I chose Civ4 over Civ3.

 

[muffins]

Are you working in Max instead of Open FX now?

Still using OpenFX

 

[CamJH]

My question is, will we still be able to use Poser to create units?
I had always assumed the answer was no, but after reading Dom's initial post I've rekindled a little hope. Does anyone know for certain either way, or is it a wait and find out situation?

 

[Yoda Power]

My question is, will we still be able to use Poser to create units?
I had always assumed the answer was no, but after reading Dom's initial post I've rekindled a little hope. Does anyone know for certain either way, or is it a wait and find out situation?

I think you will be able to use Poser, I recall reading it somewhere.

 

[Neomega]

My question is, will we still be able to use Poser to create units?
I had always assumed the answer was no, but after reading Dom's initial post I've rekindled a little hope. Does anyone know for certain either way, or is it a wait and find out situation?

My guess would be everything would have to be converted to a .3ds model.

Meaning half yes, half no. Some things like the model (if it is low poly, of course) and textures would work, but the animations may need to be re-done, as well as special effects.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

It will have to be in 3DS for Poser... and of course, virtually all existing Poser clothes, figures, etc. will be completely useless because their poly count is WAY too high for a 3D game.

What I don't know is if exporting a 3DS file in Poser would preserve it's animation....

 

[Risbinroch]

I don't think I like it... But Civ4 should be the easiest to mod throughout the series right? Perhaps it's possible to mod it in a way that you can use Civ3 units? Freeze the angles you look at the map etc? In general make the game "look" like Civ3?

I feel that the makers of games are trying to satisfy a need for 3D, even though it's not a need, not every game HAS to be 3D. I have played the game since Civ1 and it's never been about the graphics, it's about gameplay. But I guess they try to appeal to "new" civ-players - not those who has followed the game for ages. They do, however, risk loosing some players along the way in my opinion.

In my opinion I really hate the 3D looks this new game seems to have. What's the point trying to duplicate the looks of Age of Empires and those type of games... What's the point having 3D terrain - Civ is kind of an advanced board game. Offcourse 3D is essential is some games, first person shooters etc, but using 3D for games like Civ is a total waste, pointless.

I don't like everything I have read about Civ4, and I am not convinced this is going to be a good game (as I always have been with Civ...). The only games I have enjoyed playing over and over again throughout the years and never got tired of (even though that these also lacked in certain areas), are Civilization and Championship Manager (now Football Manger) and I now worry that it will all be over, that C3C will be the last good Civilization game...

I do have 3D Studio Max, but I am no master of modelling, so if I really like Civ 4 I might be tempted trying to make something. But I'm not gonna be first in line for bying Civ 4 - gonna wait a bit and see what's happening, read reviews, perhaps try a demo if they release one.

 

[Neomega]

I don't think I like it... But Civ4 should be the easiest to mod throughout the series right? Perhaps it's possible to mod it in a way that you can use Civ3 units? Freeze the angles you look at the map etc? In general make the game "look" like Civ3?

You can lock the camera to the traditional civ III view, so the civ III units may be usable, and even look good... provided the camera is set in locked view.

However, Most people probably di dnot notice, but a few civ III scenarios/mods were released with static graphics, ala Civ II... and they were not enjoyed much.

The same will probably go for cIV. Yes, you could use the civ III .flc's as billboards, but it just simply will not be as cool as using the fully 3d graphics engine.

I feel that the makers of games are trying to satisfy a need for 3D, even though it's not a need, not every game HAS to be 3D. I have played the game since Civ1 and it's never been about the graphics, it's about gameplay. But I guess they try to appeal to "new" civ-players - not those who has followed the game for ages. They do, however, risk loosing some players along the way in my opinion.

Naw. The most they could lose through the transition is due to specs and maybe a few angry modders. However, staying in 2d could not only lose alot of players, but also fail to bring many new players in.

In my opinion I really hate the 3D looks this new game seems to have. What's the point trying to duplicate the looks of Age of Empires and those type of games... What's the point having 3D terrain - Civ is kind of an advanced board game. Offcourse 3D is essential is some games, first person shooters etc, but using 3D for games like Civ is a total waste, pointless.

Well graphics are always important in any game. I am sure there are many "fun" text based games.... but no-one plays them. I will agree though, I am not particularly impressed with the graphics for Civ IV, they look kinda cartoony.... like the archer's arrows look like rockets, instead of arrows.

 

[Neomega]

Another thing worth mentioning:

For far future compatibility, when UV maping, all vertices should have a unique spot onthe map, and no UV's should over lap.

What I mean, is for those who UV map (which is an absolute must, no way around it) for game models,to save space, mirrored parts are overlapped.... to kill two birds with one stone.

(ie... when UV mapping a tank, all of the wheels can be layered on top of eachother, paint one wheel, all the wheels are painted, and more space is left on the UV map for other parts of the tank)

This is good, and it allows better detail on a smaller UVmap, however.....

Most advanced graphics engines use RGB normal mapping, which uses Red Green and Blue values to create 3d detail on low poly models, (the Red values "pushing" pixels along the X axis, the Green values, along the Y axis, and the blue values along the Z axis)

To do this correctly, each face onthe UV map needs it's own space.

Gamebryo does support this type of mapping, but, as I mentioned before, nt sure if Civ IV will use it. However, to be sure your models can live for a long time, in future engines, it may be wise to heed this advice.