Great Generals...

[Iceciro]

This is a combination question/comment/tweak thread...

There are so few buildings that provide Great General points, and no specialists that do. Are they supposed to be more difficult to get than the other Great Person types? Not being able to assign any sort of specialists is especially bad, meaning that if you want a Great General you have to beeline the few wonders that you have in one city and not run specialists elsewhere.

Why was the great general counter removed, anyways... and as part and parcel of that, why not bring it back?

(This is meant to foster discussion, not just be a rant... I'm curious as to reasoning/comments from the FF staff and what other players think.)

 

[odalrick]

Why was the great general counter removed, anyways... and as part and parcel of that, why not bring it back?

It's more along the lines of it never being added in the first place. Like espionage. If it's gone from the interface now, it means someone got tired of answering questions about why no great generals emerged.

 

[xienwolf]

Counter removed because we don't use it and I like to keep the interface as clean as possible.

Personally, I'd like to go the route of having more buildings provide GG points and possibly open up some specialist slots for GG type of point gain which also grant enhanced Training XP for the unitcombat of whoever joined (Sidar type Level 6+ unit requirement).

Then use the old Great General bar (combat Experience) to power unique abilities per race. The bar would be modified to only increase when you are the attacker in this case, and Civilizations like the Elohim (shouldn't be fighting) might get a penalty when the bar fills up, while most civilizations would get unique capabilities from filling the Bar (Doviello able to summon a Great Beast, Grigori gain a bonus Adventurer with some bonus initial strength, Clan gain a single use of a spell by any unit to summon a decent size swarm of support units from anywhere in the world, Amurites gain the ability to instantly complete any 1 ritual....)


But, this is just my own personal ideas for this moment. They are subject to change at any second, and aren't implemented due to not having nearly enough time to implement all of my ideas

 

[WarKirby]

Why go the building route?

I thought the way firaxis originally did it, based on combat, was a great way.

Generals are forged on the battlefield, not in museaums and around monuments

 

[Tarquelne]

I agree with WarKirby.

OTOH

Then use the old Great General bar (combat Experience) to power unique abilities per race.

That sounds even better.

I task you with a Do It!

 

[Jabie]

Then use the old Great General bar (combat Experience) to power unique abilities per race. The bar would be modified to only increase when you are the attacker in this case, and Civilizations like the Elohim (shouldn't be fighting) might get a penalty when the bar fills up, while most civilizations would get unique capabilities from filling the Bar (Doviello able to summon a Great Beast, Grigori gain a bonus Adventurer with some bonus initial strength, Clan gain a single use of a spell by any unit to summon a decent size swarm of support units from anywhere in the world, Amurites gain the ability to instantly complete any 1 ritual....)

That's a pretty cool idea. Linking it with techs might be pretty neat too

As for GG specialists, I think I've seen some mods which have a Drill Sergeant that gives your units +1 XP and generates some GPP for a Great General. I'm not sure if it's that balanced, but with digital XP and Training in FF, I daresay some kind of balance can be found.

 

[Iceciro]

Both are good... hmmm.
I have to say for Great Generals I prefer the way it is at standard, though the ability thing sounds really cool.

Where is the Great General bar/system disabled? Is it part of the dll for FFH or is it xml/python, because if it is xml/python I cannot find it >_>

 

[xienwolf]

The bar still works, I just removed the display of it from the F5 menu (CvMilitaryAdvisor.py). I am not sure where the distribution of the Generals was disabled at, haven't bothered to check (I would imagine it is DLL though)

 

[WarKirby]

Why not both?

Would it not be possible to use the experience bar for abilities and generals? Or even replicate the feature and have two seperate bars ?

Currently, rushing military strategy is just about the only feasible way to get a great general

 

[zup]

Or play organized order, build command posts and basilicas everywhere, spam all specialists you can get and hope you get lucky, at least once. Though I have got 2 gc from the big bronze statue because I did not 'pollute' my gpp.

Going organized with Cassiel, building command posts and casting Ardor might get you some too. But generally you want more adventurers.

EDIT: There are ways to get them but I want lots and lots and lots of all gp of all kinds...

 

[xienwolf]

It would be handy if each city had their own growing GPP target. Then your poor slow-grow pure commander city wouldn't get repeatedly lapped by you cpital with 27 priest specialists

 

[DavidB1111]

Hmm, anyway you adjust it is good to me. But don't penalize the Elohim for it. They already have a horrible time fighting at all. So, let's not make Conquest victories as the Elohim downright impossible. Pacifism is very crippling if you don't want to just restart the game because Random threw you the Elohim.
If anything, one of the unique features should change pacifism.
There's already one that has an evil option. Although, being eaten by werewolves is really bad anyway.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah, I miss the GG bar, like espionage. they are both concepts that would be great to have in FF, tied to something of course ( GG would be great for the doviello for example, and espionage fits CoE like a glove )

 

[far_wanderer]

It would be handy if each city had their own growing GPP target. Then your poor slow-grow pure commander city wouldn't get repeatedly lapped by you cpital with 27 priest specialists

I heartily endorse this idea.

Counter removed because we don't use it and I like to keep the interface as clean as possible.

Personally, I'd like to go the route of having more buildings provide GG points and possibly open up some specialist slots for GG type of point gain which also grant enhanced Training XP for the unitcombat of whoever joined (Sidar type Level 6+ unit requirement).

Then use the old Great General bar (combat Experience) to power unique abilities per race. The bar would be modified to only increase when you are the attacker in this case, and Civilizations like the Elohim (shouldn't be fighting) might get a penalty when the bar fills up, while most civilizations would get unique capabilities from filling the Bar (Doviello able to summon a Great Beast, Grigori gain a bonus Adventurer with some bonus initial strength, Clan gain a single use of a spell by any unit to summon a decent size swarm of support units from anywhere in the world, Amurites gain the ability to instantly complete any 1 ritual....)


But, this is just my own personal ideas for this moment. They are subject to change at any second, and aren't implemented due to not having nearly enough time to implement all of my ideas

I like the idea of military specialists.
I'm not sure how I feel about the extra civ-specific abilites, as it adds yet another level of complexity without simplifying anything else. I do, however, love the idea of it as a penalty for the Elohim. I say that assuming that it would be a replacement for Pacifism, rather than an additional hindrance like DavidB1111 was worried about. It makes more sense to me that the Elohim would be just as capable of fighting as anyone else, but suffer other penalties when they do.

 

[Snarks]

I would like to see the great general bar returning. It's fairly difficult to get a great general, and it would reward the war mongering civilizations. TBH, I don't care how great general creation is implemented, but it'll be nice to see them show up more.

 

[Breez]

Then use the old Great General bar (combat Experience) to power unique abilities per race. The bar would be modified to only increase when you are the attacker in this case, and Civilizations like the Elohim (shouldn't be fighting) might get a penalty when the bar fills up, while most civilizations would get unique capabilities from filling the Bar (Doviello able to summon a Great Beast, Grigori gain a bonus Adventurer with some bonus initial strength, Clan gain a single use of a spell by any unit to summon a decent size swarm of support units from anywhere in the world, Amurites gain the ability to instantly complete any 1 ritual....)

This would be very interesting.

Could you vary the amount needed to fill the bar for each civ? Seems some of your off the top of your head ideas are more powerful for some civs than others. Which would be fine as long as they didn't get it as often or as easy.

Personally I disagree about the disadvantage for the Elohim. It would be even harder for them than other people due to the built in negative they already have, and lets face it... in this game fighting IS gonna happen. If the Shiem attack, the Elohim HAVE to attack those stacks of zombies with Calvary to break it up before it even gets to their towns they are defending. My 2 cents for theirs would be each time they fill it up, a random unit loses the Pacifist promotion. Meaning that SOME of them have seen the light that the Best Defense is a Good Offense, that they have to do the dirty work to protect others, while retaining a pacifist nature as a whole.

 

[Nor'easter]

Well, let's remember to give credit where it's due: FfH had Great Commanders back before Warlords had even come out, when the mod was based only on vanilla Civ 4.

When the mod was ported over to BtS, I remember Kael once explained why he decided not to use the Great General mechanic from Warlords. His argument, if I'm remembering it right, was that combat in FfH is already very rewarding, since FfH combat generates more XP than combat in BtS, so your units get promoted much more quickly. (There was probably more to it than that, I just don't remember.)

If the base Civ 4 Great General mechanic were to be used in FfH, then that would make the Organized trait somewhat less valuable, necessitating a little rebalancing, I think.

Personally, I'm fine with Great Commanders being generated like other GPs, and I don't mind that they're kind of rare.

 

[Struta]

I think a few more buildings would be nice. But I like the idea of having to focus on one and then being limited to just a few because of how difficult they are to get.

I would like to see the strength bonus increased though. Maybe to +2, or additional +1's with wonders.The GDP of other GP's seems to be worth more then just one strength. For example, popping a tech to get iron weapons gives your entire civilization a +2.

I would also like to see generals take on a role of miniature generic heroes. Perhaps they can have abilities akin to rise of nations: Fortify (fortifies all units), Decoy (creates illusions), Forced March (+1 movement speed or commando), Recruit (as a spell instead of a one shot ability), Training (mobile +1 xp when general fortifies in a city), Ambush (stealth's a few units). The General could gain experience like a hero and his special moves could cost experience to cast.

Civ's which went out of there way to get a general would be rewarded with tactical possiblity and then could focus on getting other GP's. Certain civics could reduce the cost to cast General Spells.

 

[zup]

If it is organized getting a nerf for great generals, then add a bonus to their generation for each command post. A 5% boost for each should not be too much. Might as well give something for great commander making wonders too. Or not as they are pretty impressive without it.

 

[iffi]

Hire one for exorbitant amount of cash. If you have the guild of course.

For others, a command post could allow a city 'spell' to train a general in 15 turns. The cost could be the same as for a merc general, but probably better implemented as extra turnly upkeep.

The following cost estimates a probably way off, just to give you the idea. The high cost is meant to be another resource-wasting 'noobtrap', just like most Wonders, but doable at lower difficulty levels.

The cost could be tied to turn#, or perhaps to the turnly income of the civ. At minimum, it should be 10 turns on 100% cash slider. Perhaps some traits (Aggressive) could give a discount.

Or just a fixed price, the 1st 5000, the 2nd 7500 and so on, making it an end-game option.

All this in addition to the current mechanic. Which is sufficient in my opinion.