Great Persons thread

[Opera]

I said I have a lot of leader artwork. Didn't say I have any leaders to go with them!

I'm relieved I'm far from having anything interesting right now, mostly art and ideas. The XML files for leaders are very very long to edit, even with the editor. And I don't talk about lore!

Would you mind sharing? If you think the files are too big, you could still link to the place you found the picture. Hm, I'm really considering a new thread

OT: I found a great picture that would perfectly suits a Great Spy if they existed. Maybe they should be Great Assassins?

Spoiler :

 

[arkham4269]

Well awhile back on one of the threads I posted a pick for what I thought would be a good Scion leader, a Lanun leader (heavy into OO) as well as a pic for Baron Halfmorn (personally I like it better for the Civlopedia pic and the current one for the pop-up).

I also had one for Korinna the Red Lady as a possible evil leader for the Scions.

I've attached one for Maer due to the Civlopedia thread. Yes, she isn't white, but why does everyone in fantasy have to be white?

The other two are for are for an evil version for someone like the Amurites and a neutral/good for the Illians.

I hope they come through

 

[arkham4269]

Plus without looking at Orbis (which I have on my laptop) the first seems to be a good minor leader for the Illians since I've noticed a lot of the minor leaders are very magic related.

Next is a possible evil leader for the Mechanos and finally a picture that we couldn't use but just SCREAMS Balseraphs!

 

[arkham4269]

Plus many of the originals I used for the Great People would probably make good leaders.

The first looks very Malakim, the next a very primal (and pissed off) Svartalfar, and finally one for the Elohim that doesn't make them look like either Gandalf or Galadriel.

 

[arkham4269]

And then there are some pics I'd love to use but have no real idea for what. I mean they look like angels but also like some weird form of angel/machine spirits.

 

[arkham4269]

...and a few more of them.

 

[Opera]

I like the second one. The first is a bit weird and not so Maer-y. I think that the current Maer picture is great... It could be changed, yes... But I would certainly re-use it for another leader The third one doesn't really seem Illian to me. Grey, yes, snowy and icy, not so much.

For the Illians, I have this:

Spoiler :

And for the Scions:

Spoiler :

I really like the one for Illians. She seems so sad... as do Auric.

For now, I have roughly one new leader (at least in art) for each civilization. The Malakim are the ones I've the more trouble with... My point with my modmod/contribution is to balance out the number of female leaders as well as balancing the ration female/male in each civilization. For example, there's only males for Grigori so I added females. Where there is mostly females, I added, well, either nothing or females or males. Males don't need that more leaders anyway. I did a bit of statistics, in spoiler for interested:

Spoiler :

24 civilizations
→ 12 having 50% of ♀ or more
→ 05 having 00% of ♀
→ 01 having 100% of ♀

♀: 28
which are minors: 14 (50%)
♂: 43
which are minors: 17 (39,5%)
♀♂: 71; 39,4%♀
which are minors: 31 (43,7%)

 

[Opera]

Yeah, your angels-things are a bit hard to place! I've already seen some of them while searching for new Mercurians minor leaders. I didn't think they would fit, though. Right now, I think I have three or four Mercurians.

 

[arkham4269]

I like the second one.

Like I said, seems like a good Evil minor leader for someone like the Amurites since it looks very fire related.

Like I said, I just posed one that looks good for a female Malakim.

My only 'problem' with these leaders is I think Ahwaric opened up a bit of a can of worms (not in a bad way) by linking the Cualli as the evil Matazl. Obviously a few Civs would have some different (possibly corrupted in the case of the Bannor or Elohim) units available if they were evil.

Plus, I realize this isn't the "Hey can you do this thread?" but I was playing an all minor leader game and after awhile my minor Illian leader went 'great' yet I've never seen it happen to an AI minor leader. I wonder why is that? Some minor leaders I've played against have kicked righteous booty!

 

[Opera]

Oh, I didn't see those six others!

As I already said, I really like the one you see for Svartalfar. Did a new leader for Archos with her. I love this kind of picture The other are particularly cool, especially the Balseraphs one. However, I think the Balseraphs are "full", they have already 5 leaders and I think Ahwaric doesn't want more for one civ. Your Malakim one is really nice. I think I will do her art right now

 

[arkham4269]

BTW, I like your Scion one. I did post this a while back for another minor Scion leader.

 

[arkham4269]

BTW, I like your Scion one. I did post this a while back for another minor Scion leader.

...and of course it didn't take. Let's try this again or not...since you can find it here - http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211968&d=1240595635

 

[Opera]

Huh. We did a lot of cross-posts and double-posts here

My only 'problem' with these leaders is I think Ahwaric opened up a bit of a can of worms (not in a bad way) by linking the Cualli as the evil Matazl. Obviously a few Civs would have some different (possibly corrupted in the case of the Bannor or Elohim) units available if they were evil.

Hm, I'm not sure I'm really into this G/N/E thing. On one hand, I think it's great to see more diversity inside one civ (this is why I chose to add female leaders, because I like some civs but don't like their leader) but I have trouble seeing some civilizations having evil leaders, like the Elohim. I may just need a little time

 

[arkham4269]

Huh. We did a lot of cross-posts and double-posts here

Hm, I'm not sure I'm really into this G/N/E thing. On one hand, I think it's great to see more diversity inside one civ (this is why I chose to add female leaders, because I like some civs but don't like their leader) but I have trouble seeing some civilizations having evil leaders, like the Elohim. I may just need a little time

Well not to create a new thread, but *I* like the idea if only in the sense of for minor leaders.

As I posted recently on the "Upon Conquest" thread, I believe the vassal system needs to be redone so as to allow making vassals more in line with vanilla BTS. I mean right now you can only make vassals out of your own cities if they are separated by water.

I feel that after conquering a Civ, you should have the chance to then 'liberate' it as a vassal (and be able to pick and choose which cities to give back) and this 'new' Civ will be a minor leader whose alignment matches yours. As I posted, why should I stop before wiping out a Civ (like the Sheaim) to vassalize them if I'm the Bannor? Better to take them completely out and then install a leader with my same alignment.

 

[Ahwaric]

Some great art here, but let me repeat.

POST LINKS, NOT ART ITSELF. please!

If I get link, if I decide to use it I have no problems adding artist name to credits list.
Also, form notque's thread on leaders pictures: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7804356&postcount=56

Please, check it and do as I ask.
For now, I am not going to use most of the art. But still, some are really good ones.

Also, while I am such things:
I have never said I want one E/N/G leader for every civ. You made that up arkham. In fact, I do not want to add any more leaders right now unless I really need one. Minor ones still need work as they are.
Also, I think that balancing the number of female and male leaders is quite artificial and it is not my goal either. But I do not mind a modmodmod, and perhaps some good leaders will get to Orbis, too.

It would be best if you add a note which specific greatp person the art should go to. I know you do not like some of them, but which ones exactly?
Most of the work is to actually decide which one goes where... Also, it allows for checking if more than one person (me) thinks the art is right.

So far, despite the thread name, not much help in great persons departamanet. Of course, you can discuss what you want, but IIRC arkham, you wanted some Great Persons art changed . I count on you especially for the ones for the new great generals (#21 & #22)

Also, Maer's picture stays. I need to check if pedia entry fits the picture and change the entry if needed.

 

[Opera]

POST LINKS, NOT ART ITSELF. please!

Let's do that!

For my first four GPs (excluding the gnolls) from this post, in order:
http://alwang.cgsociety.org/gallery/666844/
http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6431
http://alonchou.cgsociety.org/gallery/
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=114407

Then, the one from this post:
http://www.ruanjia.com/

Then, the two leaders from this post:
http://mckadesinsanity.cgsociety.org/gallery/
http://pencileater.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Unfortunately, I don't know who is the artist of my three gnolls as I got the picture on a forum thread unrelated to the artist... Does this mean that you will be against including them?

Also, I think that balancing the number of female and male leaders is quite artificial and it is not my goal either. But I do not mind a modmodmod, and perhaps some good leaders will get to Orbis, too.

Yes, it's artificial, I know. I just feel better playing female leaders. I have my issues too Anyway, I wasn't thinking of having this modmod incorporated in Orbis. It'd be really really a huge "I like this" compilation of leaders, very personal in fact. So it won't please anyone, I don't know if it would even please someone besides me

I feel bad now, like a child who did something stupid

 

[Ahwaric]

Let's do that!

Thanks! If not other things, I try not to violate forum rules It is better to put art in other places for forum performance, too.

Unfortunately, I don't know who is the artist of my three gnolls as I got the picture on a forum thread unrelated to the artist... Does this mean that you will be against including them?

Well, I am not going that far Just want to credit the artist if it is possible

Yes, it's artificial, I know. I just feel better playing female leaders. I have my issues too

Don't we all?
But as I said, I will definetly try it if you release it. Some minor leaders can use some substitution anyway. So, if you come with a good one (picture and info) it can get in.

I feel bad now, like a child who did something stupid

Please do not. It happens and is ok now.

 

[arkham4269]

I have never said I want one E/N/G leader for every civ. You made that up arkham. In fact, I do not want to add any more leaders right now unless I really need one. Minor ones still need work as they are.

I didn't make it up. I may have misinterpreted something you said, but I didn't make it up. However, I'm not about to troll through every post you've done just so I can say, "Aha!" It's your mod and you can change your mind when ever you feel like it.

Plus for the most part, I would think that minor leaders would be the only ones that might need a G/N/E if only to be used in conjunction with vassalization. I mean even if you don't beat down a Civilization down to nothing, you'd expect to be able to say, "Okay Tebryn I have you dead to rights. So are you going to capitulate? Yes? Great! I'll spare your people...you on the other hand..." and then install a new minor leader of your alignment.

Of course a "Good" Illian or Sheaim seems like a paradox. I don't know, some races just don't seem like they'd either accept becoming a vassal or even if they did, that you'd want them to stay as they are. So it's almost like if you make vassals out of them, or liberate their cities to become vassals you'd expect the Illian to become a minor Doviello and the Sheaim to become a minor Amurite.

 

[Opera]

Being FfH, there may be redemption everywhere. The Sheaim could understand that they have followed the wrong path and turn themselves to the good side. Os-Gabella could finally choose to live fully with the Creation. Even the Illians could just become snow-lovers not implicated in a quest for bringing Mulcarn back. They would certainly take arms and go fight the Infernals in order to stop the hell spreading. We may see the leaders like strong, stubborn minds, dedicated to what they believe but we have to remember that they are, in essence, "humans", in the sense that they can change (and this is all what FfH is about). I do believe that not any civilization as an inherent alignment and that not any alignment in the game is forever. Well, perhaps except the Mercurians and the Infernals... but they are a sort of special case. They aren't "humans", they seem like personifications of alignment.

Anyway, instead of having a leader of each alignment, I think vassalage could simply change the leader's alignment. But, in fact, I'm not sure it would have a function right now. Vassals will more likely end up liking you anyway. There should be something like a huge grudge and a sort of project to install a puppet state, effectively removing the actual leader for another.

 

[arkham4269]

Being FfH, there may be redemption everywhere

Totally agree

Anyway, instead of having a leader of each alignment, I think vassalage could simply change the leader's alignment. But, in fact, I'm not sure it would have a function right now. Vassals will more likely end up liking you anyway. There should be something like a huge grudge and a sort of project to install a puppet state, effectively removing the actual leader for another.

Well here I don't totally agree. From a game stand point, I agree. However, and this is my personal bias, is that I long for a time when Orbis will have the Fall into Revolution Edition code that is supposedly going to make it into FF. Why? Because while it was nice having your cities revolt due to certain things, I'm looking forward to the code that will take barbarian cities and morph them into minor civs.

As I've have pointed out in many threads, I believe that I believe that the difference between an 'active' and a 'minor' Civ is their leader. The active civs have a charismatic leader with a ideal and purpose. They 'set fire' the imagination of their followers. However, like space-faring races, developed civilizations are hard to kill. I can see as things are going badly prior to the Age of Winter, you'd have refugees, armies everywhere suddenly cut off and those who took off early before things went really bad.

So that means there are pockets of people everywhere on Erebus. Most die out, but many live on. I would think that for the most part, a Active civ is the one that ended up with a viable leader, while a minor civ might be an army stuck out somewhere who hunkers down, collecting refugees (probably many from the people they were fighting) and thus where more concerned with just surviving. Later when the Age of Ice ends, these folks are more insular, thinking, "We survived; let's not borrow trouble" So as I've said before, I'd like to see barbarians not just be orcs (that's what the savages are for) but all races and that someday (if left alone) they'll morph into minor civs.

So why is this relevant to your point? Well my feeling is, the Leader IS the civilization in many ways. Their strength of vision is what made them challenge Erebus and going out into the unknown. They are not the types that would probably meekly surrender.

I'm not saying they wouldn't, but the point is that as a conqueror, I might not want them because by leaving them in place, they might rebel. Better to have a minor leader I can more control. I mean think on the standard practice of when someone topples a king, they kill anyone that might claim the throne. Better to pick a rival or a 'rebel' whose throne rest more through your power. Hell the Colonial power did that for around 200 years and it worked out pretty well.