Great unknown Generals in History

[7ronin]

Some relatively unknown officers:

Major General Israel Tal, Israeli Army - father of the Israeli armored corps and developer of the Merkava main battle tank.

Vice Admiral Charles Lockwood, U.S. Navy - commanded the U.S. submarine campaign against Japan in World War II.

Lieutenant General Leslie Groves, U.S. Army - built the Pentagon and headed the Manhattan Project.

General Curtis LeMay, U.S. Air Force - commanded the strategic air war against Japan, headed the Berlin Airlift, and as the second commander of the Strategic Air Command built it into the United State's first nuclear deterrent force.

General Count Maresuke Nogi, Imperial Japanese Army - commander of Japanese ground forces in the Russo-Japanese War.

 

[Sovin nai]

No, there was a serious oil shortage in Germany. The problem was that they diverted troops from the Caucasus Offensive into Stalingrad, when they were within site of the Baku Oil Fields.

In fact, the panzerarmee, or was it a division, that was in Stalingrad went all the way to the Caucasus before being diverted to Stalingrad. It used up more oil than it would just going straight to the Caucasus. Why wouldn't Hitler make up his mind?

General Curtis LeMay, U.S. Air Force - commanded the strategic air war against Japan, headed the Berlin Airlift, and as the second commander of the Strategic Air Command built it into the United State's first nuclear deterrent force.

I wouldn't call him unknown. Then again, I am very interested in the US Air Force, so it would make more sense that I know who he is. By the way, during the war it was the Army Air Corps. But he also was in the Air Force, so I guess you should say them both.

 

[aelf]

Then the country would have risen up in rebellion, and the Russians wouldn't have been able to forage for food, or anything. They would be stuck where they were, not able to advance or retreat.

It would have severely disrupted German war efforts anyway. In the end, they would still have to divert troops to the Eastern front, and in an even less advantageous position.

 

[Dachs]

Lieutenant General Leslie Groves, U.S. Army - built the Pentagon and headed the Manhattan Project.

This makes him great how?

General Count Maresuke Nogi, Imperial Japanese Army - commander of Japanese ground forces in the Russo-Japanese War.

Nogi actually only had control of the Third Army, with Iwao Oyama in control of the whole group. Still, Japan did so many things wrong in that war it's sort of difficult to see how the devil they won. (A: Russian incompetence. )

Firstly, Nogi didn't really have to do much to seize Port Arthur. All he had to do was sit there throwing away soldiers in costly assaults on the 203 Meter Hill, which only made things worse for the Japanese. He'd barely managed to seize the Hill at great cost when Stoessel surrendered for no real reason at all other than his own fear and incompetence. For someone who'd besieged Port Arthur only nine years prior, Nogi sure didn't act as a genius who knew the ground but instead as a shavetail out of the academy.

The Japanese failure to act against the Russian supply pipeline of the Trans-Siberian Railway is just sort of sad. Instead of moving further north and cutting off the Russians at Mukden and Port Arthur by severing their supply lines, Oyama instead decided to take Russia's bait and try to besiege Port Arthur - a nearly suicidal course given what the fortifications there were and the gigantic manpower of Russia. Japan was only saved by Russia's revolutions and the personal incompetence on the part of Stoessel at Port Arthur. IMHO they managed the 1904-5 campaign rather poorly.

 

[Sovin nai]

It would have severely disrupted German war efforts anyway. In the end, they would still have to divert troops to the Eastern front, and in an even less advantageous position.

But the Russians would be in a worse position, and the Germans might have been able to break through on the western front by then. Then again, they might not even have had enough men to break through with the extra few corps.

 

[7ronin]

Re: Curtis LeMay:
I wouldn't call him unknown. Then again, I am very interested in the US Air Force, so it would make more sense that I know who he is. By the way, during the war it was the Army Air Corps. But he also was in the Air Force, so I guess you should say them both.

He retired from the Air Force and achieved his highest rank there so that's how I listed him. He has largely faded from the popular consciousness but during the latter part of his career and life he was very well known and often in the news for his very controversial views on wanting to A-bomb the U.S.S.R. back to the stone age.

Re: Leslie Groves and the Manhattan Project:
This makes him great how?

Groves drove the development of the U.S. atomic weapons program. For good or bad, his efforts resulted in dynamic changes in war, strategy, and the world the effects of which we are still experiencing today.

Re: Nogi:

Yes, but (conceding all your points) they did win and Japan's position in the world was instantly changed.

 

[ParkCungHee]

He retired from the Air Force and achieved his highest rank there so that's how I listed him. He has largely faded from the popular consciousness but during the latter part of his career and life he was very well known and often in the news for his very controversial views on wanting to A-bomb the U.S.S.R. back to the stone age.

Thats an understatement! The man was such a loon his radicalism hurt the chances of the openly pro-racism pro-segregation preidential ticket he ran on.

 

[Sovin nai]

That's weird. I never knew he ran for president, or for any high office. All I knew about was his World War II career, and not much about that. Ahh, well we all have to learn sometimes.

 

[Adler17]

Another not very known general is Constantin von Alvensleben. He was commander of the Prussian III. Armeekorps in the Franco-German war. At that time Marshal Bazaine tried to leave the fortress of Metz to join with his Army of the Rhine the troops lead by Napoleon III. As Germany had won the battles early in the war, Napoleon wanted the armies together to deny the Germans an advance on Paris. The German staff knew about that and tried to stop Bazaine. But they thought Bazaine would go the same distance the Prussians did. But Bazaine was a too careful man and not really able to give orders. So his first troops only came to Vionville, 15 km away. There v. Alvensleben was sent with the III. and later supported by the V. Korps. Alvensleben met there 4 French corps. He was said he had only some left units to fight but not an army. He did not know the strengths and even thought he had to fight the whole army of Bazaine. But instead of retreating and trying to save the corps he attacked! He thought the psychical advantage of attacking could lower the physical disadvantage. In a hard fight the Germans could drive the French slightly out of their positions, but they had high losses. When the French artillery shot the Prussian infantry to pieces, Alvensleben had only the cavalry brigade of von Bredow (actually that were two brigades, but now only together 800 men). These 800 men, although they were exhausted, made an attack on the French batteries like at Balaklava the British cavalry did. But here although half of the men died they were able to crush through the lines and silencing the guns. This is known as the death ride of the Bredo brigade.
Now Bazaine was making an error. Instead of attacking and smashing the German troops he ordered to retreat. He thought he was attacked by superior German forces. Why the Germans would have attacked him else, not in the direction of France but Germany? Bazaine's army retreated and was later forced to surrender at Metz.
Alvensleben also got the Pour le Mérite for his merits during the battle of Königgrätz (Sadowa).

Adler

 

[Sovin nai]

Well, the whole French Army did horrible in that war. They were idiots in general, especially the upper army staffs. But, I will agree that, although part of it was the French doing badly, more of it was the Germans doing well. However, if Napoleon III hadn't holed himself up in that fortress, (was it Metz, or Sedan, or something like that?) the Germans would have had more trouble taking Paris.

 

[Dachs]

(was it Metz, or Sedan, or something like that?)

Sedan. tenchar

 

[Adler17]

Sovin nal, guess why Bismarck provoked the war...

Adler

 

[ParkCungHee]

That's weird. I never knew he ran for president, or for any high office. All I knew about was his World War II career, and not much about that. Ahh, well we all have to learn sometimes.

He ran for Vice-President with Govenor George Wallace running as president, in 1968 election. Scary enough, they won 13% of the Popular Vote.

 

[Sovin nai]

Sovin nal, guess why Bismarck provoked the war...

I am not sure why exactly he did it, other than to help unite the German people, but I do know that he proclaimed the German Empire in the palace of Versailles after taking Paris. He wouldn't have done anything other than that, not taking Alsace and Lorraine, except the then Kaiser wanted to come out with more to show than "just" a victory. That earned the emnity of the French people, and when the Prussian Hussars almost rode through the Arch de Triomphe, but the people of Paris formed a mob in front of the Arch, the French decided to do anything to win against the Germans the next time.

 

[aelf]

Sovin nal, guess why Bismarck provoked the war...

Did he really know Germany was going to win? It was still pretty much a gamble, since the French were substantially more powerful than the Austrians. If the French didn't make the mistakes they did, it could still go either way. Imagine if France had fought the war to a stalemate or even won...

 

[Sovin nai]

He wasn't sure that they were going to win, but he was almost certain. Moltke the elder was the military comander then, and he managed to concentrate most of the army in one area, while the French were spread out. The French needed a huge amount of luck, and skill that they did not have, to even score a few sucesses against the Germans. Unfortunately for them, they proved more unlucky than not, and had the least skilled generals in the vital areas of the front.

 

[aelf]

He wasn't sure that they were going to win, but he was almost certain. Moltke the elder was the military comander then, and he managed to concentrate most of the army in one area, while the French were spread out. The French needed a huge amount of luck, and skill that they did not have, to even score a few sucesses against the Germans. Unfortunately for them, they proved more unlucky than not, and had the least skilled generals in the vital areas of the front.

That much is sure on hindsight. But how did he know that it was going to happen that way? Sure, he had the general idea that the German military was better. But it surely must have been an unnerving gamble to declare war on a major power like France at that time. What if the German military somehow didn't perform as expected, like in WW1?

 

[Clausewitzian]

Re Bismark and France, the prussian army at the time was field proven and second to none, as Bismark well knew. The prussians had carefully prepared for the war and were starting to gain in the war technology tree, as they proved in their war with the Austrians, where they smashed a vastly superior army. The french completely failed to see the war coming and their post napoleonic army, unprepared and unproven, was great in name only. They were probably still mobilizing when it was all over.

I don't think Bismark had too many nightmares over it. He needed the war to achieve his ulterior motive, the unification of germany, and was willing to roll with the risks involved. In fact, Bismark went out of his way to make it all happen in the first place, it was the culmination of years of planning. A truly remarkable man.

WWI is a completely different kettle of fish. That was never meant to happen, it was not the result of a carefully prepared political plan, with all the parts in place. Once it happened, a carefully prepared plan was followed that was military in nature only. The political aspects were missing, as they were not with Bismark. When the von Schlieffen plan was conceived, there was no trans Siberian railine, and there was no entante codiale between Great Britain and France. The german military had little in the way of options other than to follow their dated plan, and they almost got away with it. Actually, they believed they would get away with it, just as Bismark did. In this sense, WWI disproves your case.

The hindsight argument is out of place here, as we know, within reason, what the people of the time were thinking, from contemporary documents.

Bismark couldn't know he would win in the sense that nobody knows the future...But it was a lot more than mere hindsight that led him to the gamble.

 

[Sovin nai]

What if the German military somehow didn't perform as expected, like in WW1?

In World War I, the German military performed as expected, at least in the beginning, but the French didn't. The French did better than the Germans though they would, and as Clasewitzian pointed out, different circumstances existed than when their outdated plan was produced.

Re Bismark and France, the prussian army at the time was field proven and second to none, as Bismark well knew. The prussians had carefully prepared for the war and were starting to gain in the war technology tree, as they proved in their war with the Austrians, where they smashed a vastly superior army. The french completely failed to see the war coming and their post napoleonic army, unprepared and unproven, was great in name only. They were probably still mobilizing when it was all over.

I don't think Bismark had too many nightmares over it. He needed the war to achieve his ulterior motive, the unification of germany, and was willing to roll with the risks involved. In fact, Bismark went out of his way to make it all happen in the first place, it was the culmination of years of planning. A truly remarkable man.

The main reason that World War I happened in the first place was the replacement of Bismark by the new Kaiser. The suceeding Chanchellors were at best idiots, and at worst cowardly fools. If he was still Chancellor when it happened, then by extension the Kaiser wouldn't have angered half the countries in Europe, so the Germans would have had all of Europe, maybe even England too, against just France. The French would have been crushed like a... well suffice it to say they wouldn't have a chance.

 

[Adler17]

Bismarck knew the weaknesses of the French army. In contrast of the German armies the French was smaller, had an unjust conscription system, an older artillery and not so good commanders. Nevertheless it was dangerous indeed. France had a fleet much stronger than the Germans. Also France was working to form an Alliance with Austria and perhaps Denmark, the loser of the other unification wars. That's why he had to act, to prevent such an alliance. And indeed only French stubborness prevented that: Austria was under the former Saxon Prime minister v. Beust very pro French and wanted revenge. But they did not want to lead another war also against Italy. Italy, German ally, could have declared war on the North German Federation, too, if she got the Papal State. The independence of that state was portected by Napoleon III, who feared he would also get more pressure by the (catholic) population as he already had. Napoleon was under extreme pressure and needed a ventil. That's why he wanted to humilate Germany after having the diplomatic success with the retreat of the Hohenzollern prince, who should become Spanish king. So the whole alliance system did not work. Austria did not delcare war on Germany, Denmark did neither as the French fleet alone could not "convince" them and the French landing corps was desperately needed in France. Another reason was, that the German Navy was now in contrast to the war 6 years ago no longer smaller than the Danish navy, thus they feared another war could not save the islands from being invaded.
Anyway most foreigners predicted a catastrophe. As they thought the French were the best soldiers of the world. They were victorious in North Africa, Mexico and Italy. Even the Times wrote that nothing could save the Prussians with their execise mentality. But in contrast trains from all over Germany were transporting troops to the border. From Silesia, from East Prussia and Schleswig- Holstein as well as Bavaria and the Rhineland. While the French were still grouping their forces in France the German army was nearly ready. So it is no wonder that the French offensive into Germany was only a mere demonstration to act than it was a demonstration of power. Soon the French were driven away and in contrast the Germans were victorious in a number of battle against the French in France. Spichern, Weißenburg, Wörth, only to name the most famous first battles, were all won by the Germans. When Bazaine got the order to join the main army, his position was nearly hopeless. But Vionville made that attempt to break out failing and soon he was at Metz and had to surrender (he was therefore sentenced to death for treason, but later for life imrpisonment, from which he could flee (with the help of the officers guarding him!!!) only to die in Madrid several years later). After Metz the French armies were enclosed at Sedan and captured deciding the war effectively.

It is a bit unfair to compare all German chancellors with Bismarck. Even Bismarck could not have prevented the end of the Russian alliance for much longer. Or the hatred of king Edward VII. against all German and especially Wilhelm, who was Vicky's darling. The catastrophe of 1914 was there because NO single diplomat or politician was really able. In all nations.

Adler