Great Work of Art slot
- Thread starter Bromar1
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Gamewizard
Emperor
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There are religious buildings with art slots.
Yes, that's exactly right.
What? The game is neither built to nor intended to allow you to do everything in every game, especially if you fail to get into some of the key features of the game. Use your artists to start Golden Ages. Build wonders. This isn't a failure, even if it might be frustrating in your current game.
I just don't understand why it has the be this way. Would balance be totally broken if there was an accessible GWA slot? Amphitheaters unlock at the same time as writers guilds. I feel like it really hampers the tempo of a culture game if you go for artist's guilds (for all the synergy with aesthetics and that sweet culture) but then have all these artists hanging around waiting for museums to be discovered
lordrune
Prince
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- Jan 1, 2008
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- 592
If you're going early great people, you've probably gone tradition, and that gives you two slots for great works of art very early.
You get another slot from the Parthenon (two, one filled) if you've gone progress, one from the national monument, and maybe religious buildings, perhaps something else I missed.
The museum doesn't come that far after guilds.
No one says you can't save a Great Artist up if you somehow have got more than you can use in the early mid game.
You get another slot from the Parthenon (two, one filled) if you've gone progress, one from the national monument, and maybe religious buildings, perhaps something else I missed.
The museum doesn't come that far after guilds.
No one says you can't save a Great Artist up if you somehow have got more than you can use in the early mid game.
Restricting GWA slots of art to only tradition civs doesn't seem like good game design... It doesn't make sense to punish authority or progress starts that want to play the culture game. Sure, giving tradition an advantage is fine but then locking out the other two ancient era policy groups seems arbitrary and unfun.
ColonelCarter
Chieftain
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- Dec 2, 2013
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Great works are primarily for tourism, which is probably the victory condition that requires the most planning. If you didn't plan to get more than your 2 early guaranteed Art Slots of Palace + National Monument, then you deserve the drawback of not being able to convert your artists earlier. There are ways to get Art Slots, like religious buildings (even if you don't found, you can try to adopt/conquer a neighbor's religion who does have them), several wonders (Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame, Parthenon if Progress, Uffizi if Aesthetics), and your Hermitage.
You had to make the decision to build and work your Artists as soon as you hit Guilds, and it's not the game's fault if you aren't ready to hold the Great Works. It was like this in BNW too, and it makes sense historically as most old art was either in religious institutions or private collections.
You had to make the decision to build and work your Artists as soon as you hit Guilds, and it's not the game's fault if you aren't ready to hold the Great Works. It was like this in BNW too, and it makes sense historically as most old art was either in religious institutions or private collections.
?
If you want to play a culture game then you don't go policy trees that emphasize on infrastructure and expansion.
I find that most of the religious buildings' slots are unnecessary besides the art one. We could change them to art. We went through a period when we had art slots on temples. Can't remember why we took them away, but I think it was because it made the temple too important.
Nobody so far has addressed the fact that, as Bromar1 pointed out, this situation is only true for artists. Amphitheatres have a slot for great work of writing and unlock at the same time with the respective guilds; opera houses have a slot for great work of writing and unlock even earlier than the corresponding guilds do. What is the justification for the first available universal (as in buildable in any city in all circumstances - see amphitheatres and opera houses) building with slots for great works of art unlocking two eras after their guilds?
(Yeah, you get two slots at once, but: a) these slots are also shared for artifacts; b) that doesn't help having to stockpile artists until museums unlock if you do want to create some art.)
There's no planning involved in expending great writers or great musicians - you want to create a great work, you do it, practically no planning involved. Not for artists, though. In my opinion, that is just inconsistent without a reason.
(Yeah, you might eventually run out of slots for writings, since there are no universal buildings with those slots aside from amphitheatres, but that won't happen until you've already filled out all of them).
It's not like great artist needs that kind of a restriction in the first place. Their great works aren't neither better nor worse than any other type of great work, generally speaking. I wouldn't say that creating a great work of art is better than starting a golden age, either - these actions are much too different, both have a niche, and neither is unarguably supreme. Yet you can only get locked out of creating a great work of art with no effort, while a golden age is almost there.
Following in Hokath's footsteps: a more radical approach is also possible - strip ampthitheatres and opera houses of their slots for great works, so that religious buildings become the primary source of slots.
(Yeah, you get two slots at once, but: a) these slots are also shared for artifacts; b) that doesn't help having to stockpile artists until museums unlock if you do want to create some art.)
There's no planning involved in expending great writers or great musicians - you want to create a great work, you do it, practically no planning involved. Not for artists, though. In my opinion, that is just inconsistent without a reason.
(Yeah, you might eventually run out of slots for writings, since there are no universal buildings with those slots aside from amphitheatres, but that won't happen until you've already filled out all of them).
It's not like great artist needs that kind of a restriction in the first place. Their great works aren't neither better nor worse than any other type of great work, generally speaking. I wouldn't say that creating a great work of art is better than starting a golden age, either - these actions are much too different, both have a niche, and neither is unarguably supreme. Yet you can only get locked out of creating a great work of art with no effort, while a golden age is almost there.
Following in Hokath's footsteps: a more radical approach is also possible - strip ampthitheatres and opera houses of their slots for great works, so that religious buildings become the primary source of slots.
Artists can be used for Golden Ages instead, as well. Additionally, because you have to deal with Artifacts as well as art, they are different than Music and Writing works already. Basically, it's a lot more acceptable for Great Works of Art to be difficult to have slots for if you don't have Wonders and the like because you'll get Artifacts later on anyway. And a lot of those. Plus the theming bonuses tend to be for Great Works of Art and Artifacts more than Writing and Music.
Exactly my point. There's nothing unique about GWA slots that they need to be delayed so long. Either all great works deserve a universally accessible building with slots or remove all the slots from them and find a different "more radical approach".
ColonelCarter
Chieftain
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Why can't there be something unique about one of the Great Work types? Museums as we know them today literally didn't exist during Medieval and Renaissance times. There weren't many non-religious organizations that would collect works of art to display for the public to view (=tourism). The Uffizi is an example of an older museum, and you can build that in the game if you want Art slots.
The game gives you options, take them or change your gameplan if they become unobtainable. Every playstyle can't have everything. Should we complain that there's no good military units for a long time in the top part of the tech tree which hinders sciencey/growth/infrastructure -based civs from going domination? No, because if you want to go domination, you focus the bottom part that has better units and military focused infrastructure.
The game gives you options, take them or change your gameplan if they become unobtainable. Every playstyle can't have everything. Should we complain that there's no good military units for a long time in the top part of the tech tree which hinders sciencey/growth/infrastructure -based civs from going domination? No, because if you want to go domination, you focus the bottom part that has better units and military focused infrastructure.
Feels bad when courthouse are at the top of the tech tree not bottom.
That is true, but with every other GP, including musicians and artists, you are guaranteed the luxury of two choices instead of one practically at all times. For artists and only for them it can quickly get cut in half, pretty much reducing the utility of the unit for as much as well.
I don't see how the existence of artifacts helps great artists or great works of art. Artifacts don't directly supplement or have strong synergies with great works of art - you're better of theming your museums and wonders with homogenic pairs of either just artifacts or just art. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true - art and artifacts have to compete for the same slots, and since, as you said, it is easily possible to obtain a lot of artifacts, art is less desirable. Here's why: you always can trade creating art for starting a golden age, which is always useful; with historic sites though, for the most part, you dig in nobody's lands or in the lands of some civ you have already erected at least one landmark for, so creating an artifact becomes the only valid option.
I agree with the historic premise, but other than that there's not much of unique about the great artist having less utility than musicians and writers. It's not as much unique as it is weak. If artist had something to compensate for that, then I, too, could be asking 'Why not?', but I don't think that argument is appropriate in the current situation.
If you're saying that there should be diversity of gameplay choices, I fully support that. Choices are good, choices that provide a trade-off (top part of tech tree vs bottom; great work vs instant effect) are also good. I could also get behind the premise that you have to plan which religion to found or adopt in order to have the right slots available, but I don't see why this has to only concern great artists. I find the discrepancy is unjustified. Sorry if I keep repeating myself.
Eventually, imagine if what I suggested in the end of my previous post was true (no great slots on amphitheatres or opera houses, religion is the source of slots). Creating a religion would become dauntingly trivial, as the balance would greatly tip towards religious buildings. You wouldn't even be able to cover all three types of great works - perhaps that's also planning for some, but I'd find it irritating. Going for a culture game would mean tying yourself unnecessarily tight to a completely different game mechanic, which is meant to be victory type neutral, - the religion game.
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