Greatest traitor in your nations (or anyone else’s) history?

[bigmeat]

i think our worst traitor are those guys who gave russia those atomic secrets, i think they did it for money, can someone elaborate?

 

[Nobody]

Russle Crowe

 

[SquallKLeonhart]

The PRI party of mexico as a whole robbed the country blind.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Come on! Nobody said Alcibiades. He betrayed Athens to Sparta and Sparta to Athens back again. If there was ever a traitor in history he was it!

Ooh, can't believe I forgot about him. He betrayed Athens, Sparta, and Persia. When he went to help Athens again, they didn't exactly trust him

Although, after reading the campaign against Syracuse (where he betrayed Athens) I have little respect for either of the two top generals (Niceas being the other, who's actions turned something minor into the greatest disaster for the Athenians ever).

Bigmeat, are you talking about the Rosenbergs? They are probably among the most controversial traitors in that, by the end, people were actually asking the government to spare their lives. They ended up being electrocuted to death in 1953.

 

[bigmeat]

Ooh, can't believe I forgot about him. He betrayed Athens, Sparta, and Persia. When he went to help Athens again, they didn't exactly trust him

Although, after reading the campaign against Syracuse (where he betrayed Athens) I have little respect for either of the two top generals (Niceas being the other, who's actions turned something minor into the greatest disaster for the Athenians ever).

Bigmeat, are you talking about the Rosenbergs? They are probably among the most controversial traitors in that, by the end, people were actually asking the government to spare their lives. They ended up being electrocuted to death in 1953.

yes, and there fate was what they deserved

 

[BananaLee]

Anwar Ibrahim, for single-handedly crippling the Malaysian economy just after the Soros fiasco in exchange for a pledge by the inventor of the internet to get the post of Malaysian PM.

 

[Mescalhead]

Andronicus Ducas

The traitor general of Byzantium who was asked by the emperor he wished to overthrow to send more reserve troops (whom Andronicus commanded) forward to relieve an ambush. Andronicus simply spread the word on the battlefield of Manzikert in 1071, that Emperor Diogenes IV Romanus was killed in battle. This caused the army to flee. The emperor and his close guard remained and the emperor was captured by Alp Arlslan, the Seljuk commander, and held for ransom.

In Diogenes' absence he was deposed and Andronicus' nephew Michael VII Ducas was put on the throne. Diogenes was let go and while on the way to the capital was defeated twice at the hands of imperial troops. After the second battle, Diogenes gave himself up to Adronicus, announced he would give up all claims to the throne, and that he would retire to a monastery. Rather, Adronicus put Diogenes on a mule for the duration of the 500 mile trip back to Constantinople in which he was allowed to be attacked by passersby-- which led to him having his eyes poked out. Diogenes died the next year.

The effects of the defeat of Manzikert robbed from Constantinople a population from which historically was used to draw a great many recruits, a large grain-producing region, and a link in the major east-west trade routes of the time. Byzantium never recovered from this defeat which marked the beginning slow death of the once great empire. It allowed also, a bellicose, and relatively unciviled group of people from Central Asia to pour into Anatolia, murdering, raping, pillaging, and destroying infrastructure in great amounts. It also allowed them to further chip away at the failing empire. It receded the borders of European Christiandom from east of Cappadocia to the Bosphorus. Its legacy is also that which allowed the Turks to invade Europe-proper and visit upon the locals exploitation and brutal repression that always follows an empire to the areas where the will of the people does not favor it.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

In Canada, I'd have to say the FLQ, who nearly caused civil war.

 

[Steph]

For France, I would say Pétain, or more generally the Vichy government.

Put there to save France from 1940 defeat... And turn collaborating with the Germans.

 

[Uiler]

For China, two candidates I've seen crop up is the Chinese Chancellor Qin Hui during Southern Song during the time of Yue Fei. Yue Fei was a young military genius who by the time he was 30 had practically driven the Jin out of Northern China. On the eve of his final battle to take back the old capital and rescue the two captured emperors, he got recalled to Huangzhou by the Chancellor, put on trial and executed. It is believed that the Chancellor was bribed by the Jin and the emperor didn't want his father or older brother freed. After Yue Fei's death public outcry forced the emperor to scapegoat the Chancellor and he had him and his co-conspirators executed. Statues of the traitors being tortured in agony were placed around Yue Fei's tomb. The Chancellor was asked the question, "What crime did he committ" and his answer 'Mo Xu You' which meant 'something fairly likely.' became a byword for unfair trials. I understand that people around China who had the same surname as the Chancellor were forced to change their names because of popular ire and a popular breakfast snack was named after him (so people could bite off his head).

The second candidate is the general who surrendered to the Manchurians and helped them defeat the Ming.

The Chinese have a specific term for these traitors, "Han traitors" i.e. the betrayers of the Han people. Another one is "Han thief". There is the saying "I would rather be a Han ghost than a Han traitor". Funnily enough I've seen mainland Chinese call Taiwanese Chinese "Han traitors".

 

[Adler17]

For Germany Walter Ulbricht and co., who made a communistical dictatorship in Eastern Germany for the Russians and Stalin.
Segestes, the brother of the chief of the cherusci at the time of Arminius. He told Arminius´plan to Varus. But because he thought it was a family quarrel, Segestes´daughter Thusnelda was Arminius´ wife, against Segestes will, Varus didn´t believe him. Well, history knows what happened then...
The Nazis, who served under a certain crazy Austrian...

Adler

 

[Plotinus]

What's the definition of "traitor" being used here? Is treachery necessarily bad? As has been said already, a "hero" like Caesar can be just a traitor who succeeded. Similarly, we regard Stulpnagel and those others who tried to assassinate Hitler as heroes. If treachery means going against the wishes of your leaders, that must be a good thing if your leaders are wrong. Again, some traitors are regarded as noble - like William Wallace, at least if you take your history lessons from Mel Gibson.

General Gordon, a religious nutcase who disobeyed orders from London and ended up getting killed at Khartoum, might be an interesting British example. Although I suppose by far the most obvious would be Guy Fawkes and his fellow conspirators.

 

[Nobody]

on age of empirers 2 there is the baberossa misson. in it there is a guy who betrays babarossa.

 

[Nobody]

oh and freedo, tessio and Carlo Rizzi

 

[privatehudson]

What's the definition of "traitor" being used here? Is treachery necessarily bad? As has been said already, a "hero" like Caesar can be just a traitor who succeeded.

Exactly, and the defenition of it can change depending on who writes the popular history. To many in Scotland and Ireland at the time of the Jacobite rebellions, the Stuarts were the rightful heirs to the throne, but they could be considered traitors for fighting against the King, even if the king did have a worse claim than the stuarts.

 

[Longasc]

I think of EVE. Because of her, we got expelled from paradise, only because of a stupid apple!

Anyone who says that Adam and Eve are no historical persons, think of what you are saying, the Inquisition is just around the corner!

 

[superisis]

I've heard a story of a Jew in the 18th or 19th century who proclaimed divinity (i.e. the messiah) a received a great gathering. That is until it disturbed the current ottoman emperor (this all happened around the balkans I believe). He then gave the selfproclaimed messiah a choice, to convert to Islam or line up for execution. Well, being the messiah he rightfully was he converted to Islam. hehe kinda betraying his own people textbook style.

Otherwise I'ld say the fourth Caliph 'Ali. By showing mercy his defeated enemy (Muawiyya i believe, who opposed 'Ali's Caliphood) he angered his allies the Karighites (my spelling is off, i know) who felt betrayed by his rahiim, or mercy, so they (rightly I think) turned on 'Ali. The war then turned into a three way with Muawiyya fighting 'Ali for the right to the Caliphood and the Karighites fighting both out of spite.

 

[Verbose]

Verbose, I'm really disappointed in you that you didn't answer the question for Sweden.
I'm not the most knowledgable Swede around here, but wasn't there a general who went over to the Russians at the time of the 1810 debacle (loss of Finland)? He's not very famous though, as you need to be a history nut to hear about him...

Vice-admiral Carl Olof Cronstedt (1756-1820), the man who single handedly lost Finland to the Russians, you mean?

Yes, I've had writing about him in mind when I started this thread. I'll be back with this story of betrayal from the Napoleonic wars.

 

[Uiler]

Why do you think the Chinese developed the concept of the Mandate of Heaven? It was originally developed by the Zhou dynasty to justify getting rid of the Yin (Shang) (A highly fictionalised account of this can be seen in the popular classical Chinese novel "Creation of the Gods"). Since it worked well and resonanted well with the Chinese population, each successive dynasty kept it until it was practically a codified part of Chinese politics. There is a saying which came into being more than 2000 years ago, "The Emperor has set forth a deer in the park and every man can catch it" (i.e. the emperor has no power left and the empire is up for grabs for any man strong enough to take it). Though ministers of state and generals who are still loyal to a bad emperor are still looked on favourably as loyalty to your leader is highly prized. But people who "defect" to the rebel (unless said rebel becomes unpopular) are not condemned because they are merely following the Mandate of Heaven. The rebel doesn't necessarily need to win. He just has to be looked upon favourably by history and then his rebellion is considered justified.

What's the definition of "traitor" being used here? Is treachery necessarily bad? As has been said already, a "hero" like Caesar can be just a traitor who succeeded. Similarly, we regard Stulpnagel and those others who tried to assassinate Hitler as heroes. If treachery means going against the wishes of your leaders, that must be a good thing if your leaders are wrong. Again, some traitors are regarded as noble - like William Wallace, at least if you take your history lessons from Mel Gibson.

General Gordon, a religious nutcase who disobeyed orders from London and ended up getting killed at Khartoum, might be an interesting British example. Although I suppose by far the most obvious would be Guy Fawkes and his fellow conspirators.

 

[privatehudson]

How about Bernadotte? Despite tatooes proclaiming his republican ideals, he leaves Napoleon after being sacked during the 1809 Austrian campaign and gets elected crown prince of Sweeden. He then leads his country's army against Napoleon 4 years later culminating in the fighting at Leipzig. He ends up King of Sweden and his descendants are still on the throne.

For that matter, what there's Marmont, who gave his title to a French verb for "to betray" after he deserted Napoleon during the 1814 campaign and later voted to execute Ney.