Greece threatens to sue Oliver Stone

[Vasileius]

Oops. Be warned. On the webpage with the translations, don't go to the "Image Index" if you are squeamish because there are some fairly explicit images of male/male sex from Greek vases and other classical Greek sources. Ironically given the modern English definition of the word, fighting ***** (yes, as in the birds so no I'm not swearing or using bad words) were considered a sign of true love between men, because I quote, "a metaphor for the love relationship, imaged as a contest of will and endurance." Hares, deers, meat (caught during hunting) and dice apparently were also favourite gifts during courtship. I guess this is showing off, saying, "Look how great I am at hunting. Look how strong I am. Come to my arms, beloved!" Yeah, some of the images are fairly explicit (well as explicit as ancient Greek art on vases can get) so best to avoid them if sensitive. Ironically, some of the vases seem to be from the Vatican...

All these images are fake ... It reminds me those photos the souvenir shops sell ... These vases don't really exist ... Or if they do they are made in Taiwan or China ./

but are there any monarchists left in Greece? Are they nationalists, rich people with hearts a few sizes too small, or something else? And what do you think of that guy in the former Greek royal family trying to step foot in the Hellenic Republic?

Yes there are some old grannies ...
Noone will ever allow him to return ...
= :thumbdown ...

 

[Uiler]

All these images are fake ... It reminds me those photos the souvenir shops sell ... These vases don't really exist ... Or if they do they are made in Taiwan or China ./



Yes there are some old grannies ...
Noone will ever allow him to return ...
= :thumbdown ...

What on earth evidence do you have that they are fake? They give references to where the vases are kept e.g. the Vatican, Antikensammlung in Berlin, Univ. of Mississippi Museum, the British Museum in London dates, etc., museum reference numbers . The pictures and the text are taken (with permission) from "Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents" edited by Professor Hubbard, a professor of Greek and Roman Literature at the University of Texas and published by the University of California press. Maybe it's just me, but I'd trust Professor Hubbard over you over the vases' authenticity. And if you doubt it, just contact one of the museums/universities listed and ask them whether the vases exist. Also if you look at the URL, you can clearly see that the webpage is the webpage of a course at the University of Texas.

Oh and here is a faculty webpage at UT detailing the authenticity of the website I pointed you to:

http://www.utexas.edu/academic/cit/fasttex/2004/la/

 

[Sims2789]

According to their beliefs, they have both the moral right to sue as well as the legal right to sue, so we can't deny them that rights.

I don't think we're on the same page. What I'm saying is that although the right to sue should be protected, and they have that legal right. their lawsuit should be throw out of court and they should be fined, like with all frivolous lawsuits (despite what some may have you think, frivolous lawsuits aren't that common in the United States; the politicians just use them as an excuse to make it harder to sue insurance companies). I believe you were applying the term "moral" to whether or not they have the right to sue, whereas I was applying it to whether or not their suit is just.

 

[Greek Stud]

I think you are all homosexuals for arguing about this. And because I state it clear, it should be written that you are all homosexuals and bisexuals without any discontent. But let us write down definitive proof with out backing it up that you all are homosexuals. There is nothing wrong with saying that you are gay. I just want to make a documentation that you are gay so that future generations will only be left with proof that you are gay, when nobody except yourself really knows how gay you all are.

So please gayly continue to bark out to the Greeks that defending the ACCURACY of their history, is not their responsibility. Let the entire world decide that everytime a national identity is attacked, that it should be left alone, left to be written and used as a factual reference.

It doesn't matter if Alex is gay, but he is a historic figure of Greek past.

Slovenes make claims to be culturally living in the same way ancient Macedonians did. Why isn't there a question about that validity, but instead we say: DAR DAR um sure, lets recognize you as MACEDONIA, and Greeks who still are taught Ancient Greek writing and language, well screw you guys, because we dont care that people who can read and write Ancient Greek are the only ones that can ancient writings of the past.

When people get mad at Greeks for defending their issues it makes think of all the frivolous lawsuits we have in America, and I think yes, we AMericans are so ridiculous to argue a topic that we think we know about. We will have lawsuits here for spilling coffee because it burned me, but the protection of the Greek identity is not worth the time to address in a court. I just have one word: Ignorance.

 

[Vasileius]

What on earth evidence do you have that they are fake? They give references to where the vases are kept e.g. the Vatican, Antikensammlung in Berlin, Univ. of Mississippi Museum, the British Museum in London dates, etc., museum reference numbers . The pictures and the text are taken (with permission) from "Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents" edited by Professor Hubbard, a professor of Greek and Roman Literature at the University of Texas and published by the University of California press. Maybe it's just me, but I'd trust Professor Hubbard over you over the vases' authenticity. And if you doubt it, just contact one of the museums/universities listed and ask them whether the vases exist. Also if you look at the URL, you can clearly see that the webpage is the webpage of a course at the University of Texas.

Those vases are only kept in those universtities ... How the hell , vases of that type can be there and not here , in the Greek museums ?
THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL ANCIENT GREEK VASES SHOWING SEXUAL ACTS INVOLVING PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX .
Those vases either they ARE fake or they AREN'T ancient Greek , made at least AFTER the Roman period .
Plus , I don't trust the Univesity of Texas in those issues . If you dig here , you will find vases and amphoreis . If you dig in Texas , you will only find oil ...

 

[Juka The Dumb]

sorry,but i couldnt resist

Moderator Action: We're sick of your spamming and threadjacking. Have 3 days off.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Uiler]

This argument, I really don't know how to answer it. Are you saying that the University of Texas, the University of California, the British Museum, Oxford, the Metropolitan Museum of New York, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, the Louvre in Paris, the Vatican etc. can't date Greek vases? That they can't tell an authentic Greek vase from a fake one? *This* is what your argument is based on?

Besides are you trying to tell me all those exerpts from original Greek documents are fake too? Maybe it's just me, but hell, if they're eulogising the role of male lovers in bringing down tyrants, I sure the hell wouldn't find making vases with male/male sex acts unusual...

I'm getting a really bad impression of Greece from this thread. It seems that modern Greeks want to try to deny that male/male sex was fairly common in pre-Christian times to the point that when the British Museum, the Louvre in Paris, or the Vatican (hardly a bastion of liberal attitudes to homosexuality) say that an ancient Greek vase denoting clear male/male sexual activity dates back to the 5th-4th century BC, well obviously they are *wrong* because it is impossible that Greek artwork (even pre-Christian artwork) would condon male/male sexual activity. OK, I'll give arguments over what exactly the Greeks allowed as the modern definition of homosexuality did not really apply back in those days, differences in translation etc. but saying that vases which clearly depict male/male sex acts that the Louvre museum/Vatican/British Museum dates back to the 4th century BC Greece and which Professors in the field in UT and UC think is correct is an argument smacking of desperation. Unless of course you want to point out the flaws in the Louvre's authenticiy testing, but I doubt you are an expert of this calibre.

I apologise if my impression is incorrect but I am certainly not getting a good opinion of the broad-minded nature of modern Greeks from this thread (or what is happening with the law suit). It is possible that Greek museums are afraid to show this type of stuff because they fear a similar reaction to what happened when a scholar in Greece tried to give a talk about Alexander's sexuality a couple of years back. There was a riot as they tried to lynch him. If a Greek museum tried to put out a display of Greek vases showing male/male sex, well, I'd guess they don't want to have their building raided by a raging mob.

Those vases are only kept in those universtities ... How the hell , vases of that type can be there and not here , in the Greek museums ?
THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL ANCIENT GREEK VASES SHOWING SEXUAL ACTS INVOLVING PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX .
Those vases either they ARE fake or they AREN'T ancient Greek , made at least AFTER the Roman period .
Plus , I don't trust the Univesity of Texas in those issues . If you dig here , you will find vases and amphoreis . If you dig in Texas , you will only find oil ...

 

[Greek Stud]

I am Greek. I don't care if Alexander the Great is gay or if he is not. Most Greeks I know would say he was gay. But who cares if lawyers want to take this case. If they have something to prove let them do it. Spilling coffee got an American woman millions of dollars, that is injustice.

The classification and debate of identy is worth looking into.

My personal opinion is that he was bisexual, and I am not embarrassed about it at all. It was he was, there's nothing wrong with that.

My solution to the Macedonia debate is fairest to make legal document, the defining of territorial boundaries and historical reference to the 600AD assimilation of the Slavene-Greek cultures. They own their rights to that process. They own the rights to the Cyrillic Texts and religious books. I believe they own a right to Cyrillic Orthodox Church. But that the protection of Greek Macedonia is gauranteed. The name of the FYROM should be: Slovic Macedonia or New Macedonia (i.e. New Zealand or New York from York)

 

[Sims2789]

But who cares if lawyers want to take this case. If they have something to prove let them do it. Spilling coffee got an American woman millions of dollars, that is injustice.

The coffee was at 180 degrees (Farenheit); the industry standard was 140 degrees. 180 will burn you. McDonalds only did it to save a tiny bit of money because then they could keep their coffee for a few minutes longer. Frivolous lawsutis almost never happen in the United States (trust me, my dad's a lawyer of almost 20 years, and this is what he said). The media just blows them out of proportions, and then the politicians, backed by the corporations, use the myth about frivolous lawsuits flooding our courts to pass laws making it harder to sue insurance companies, corporations, and doctors for malpractice.

 

[Greek Stud]

I would consider shifting any self-responsibilty frivolous. She didn't drop the coffee because it was hot, she was irresponsibile and had it spill in the car. Suing Fast Foods because they make you fat is frivolous because it is your eatting habits. Suing a restaurant because there is a bug in your food is frivolous, because you should not be reprimanded higher than the value of the food and damages. I'm sorry but none of these cases create damages of millions of dollars. They are ridiculous and California is the worst where I live. Unions file the most ridiculous cases continuously. And the add up junk of emotional distress is the most frivolous sort you can create. No one should ever be reponsible to pay off distress, because money does not fix the problem. Distress is a self-controlled emotional state that you decide how to manage. American cases are bombarded with this, especially in car accidents. My neck hurts, they say, when it really doesn't. Insurance companies were surprised with the two accidents inflicked on me, I didn't flood the paperwork or slow the process by adding the bs claims to injuries that are just going to heal however they heal no matter whether I get damages claim or not. American law is well organized, but it has tons of jargon that allow for the most ridiculous suits in the world. So bagging on EUropeans isn't really the way to go. If an American film company is going to make a film about a European Historic event, you better believe they have the right to question the way it is depicted because it influences worldly thought on part of their identy. That is a much larger scope of influence than the fat content inside a McDonalds BigMac affecting the influence of consumption at a fast food restaurant. There are larger stakes at the cultural level, which they have a right to defend.