Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

[Krzowwh]

What are the states in China currently as on the map? What can be reorganized into the "Shogunate" system?

 

[SouthernKing]

I still think there should be a Frankish and a Saxon state fighting for control over the region.

If you wouldn't mind I would like to post my own map interpretation

Go for it, I'm not entirely pleased with mine, anyway.

Okay, I know that Sam has been given control of Rome, but I had some great ideas for them. Feel completely free to reject them if you want Sam.

My rationale was that people wanted an Islamic Rome for the lols and also a Hellenic Rome. Then I thought, how about both?

Going with the theme that Greece = OTL Rome, I thought that we could make Rome a sort of OTL equivalent of Carthage (which makes Carthage an OTL Greece sorry Carthage ;_. The Greeks and the Romans have a series of long and bitter "Punic Wars" where neither side wins. The Greeks then realize it would be easier to convert the Romans to Hellenism and make them into a client state. Thanks to Greek support, Rome stays stable but thanks to Greek pressure they don't leave Italy.

Greece collapses, Rome can breath on it's own a bit more. Around this time, Islam becomes a thing and becomes popular in all of Italy south of and including the city of Rome. Islam is treated like Christianity is OTL. Then there is an Islamic Emperor/Consul who makes it the state religion. Unlike OTL, Roman Hellenics don't take it lying down and cue civil war. Then a peace of Westphilia-esque thing happens and everyone goes home happy. Until 1444 when a terrible (0/0/0) Hellenic ruler gets put in charge and decides that Hellenism is the only religion again. Although the Hellenics stop mostly-Islamic Rome (the capital) from succeeding, the rest of the south declares a civil war and now they fight for the throne/consul chair.

Thoughts?

I fully support this idea.

What are the states in China currently as on the map? What can be reorganized into the "Shogunate" system?

All of these are just cobbled-together personal thoughts, with most names that weren't given stolen from 10-minute searches on wiki, and suggestions can (and probably should) be changed:

My idea for China's history was that the Greeks arrived just as the Han Dynasty collapsed, founding their own "dynasty" which lasted in some form for a few centuries before collapsing in the next round of invasions, which probably occurred some time around 600-700 CE. Those led to a horrendously fractured China.
-Huaxia (pale yellow) is the remnant ethnic Han country, probably a recently reunited group of former warlord kingdoms which survived the Hellenic and invasion periods without
-Tuunghai (dark), the Asian Hansa, which will have Ryukyu, Formosa, northern Luzon, and a couple of the coastal cities.
-Nanyue (grayish state in Vietnam-SW China), Yelang (purple), Dian (Yunnan) and Panyu (orange) (which is an OPM centered around OTL Guangzhou) in the south, all of which are run by whoever lived in the region before OTL Han Dynasty.
-Serica (light blue in Sichuan), the remnant Hellenic Chinese state, which I'd imagine to have had a kind-of similar downfall to OTL Byzantium.
-Tibet is united though probably much closer culturally to India than to China. Xinjiang has the Tarim basin city-states (Hotan, Kashgar, Kucha, Qargan, Turfan)
-The Magyars are in the north, I'm not unsure if they'll be a united blob or several smaller countries at the start
-The Shogunate is that dark-brown country in northern China (which will, again, get many more provinces in AoW) I personally would like to see about 3-4 provinces around Chang'an broken off into some other country. but if that's not wanted its fine.

 

[Omega124]

Why does islam always equal a despotic monarchy BOTH should be an Oligarchic Republic, the government of OTL rome didn't change when it became christian, why would it when it became Muslim.

Muslim Rome=Emperor
Hellenic Rome=Senate

Geez, you don't need to read into things so much.

 

[Terran Empress]

Ok here is my idea for Central Europe



Blue is Frankia, primary culture is Frankish, but also rules over some Gauls (not German), Batavi, Frisians, and maybe a few Saxons

Green is Saxony, Primary culture is Saxon, rules over quite a few Thuringii, some Frisians, and maybe a Lombard province or two, possibly a Frankish province or two because of a recent war.

Orange is Frisia, rules over Frisians and a few Batavi

Red is Angleland, rules over Angles and Jutes

Yellow is Thuringa, rules over Thuringii and Lombards

and Brown is Alemania ruled over by Alemannis (new culture) - which could have goals to take control of gaul for megs <3

 

[SouthernKing]

So I did a thing.

Spoiler :

 

[SouthernKing]

Decided to go with Terran's proposal because it works out better.

Spoiler :

In addition, expanded Middle East

Spoiler :

 

[Nintz]

A quick note that balancing should be taken carefully with that many European provinces dedicated to certain tribes. Modifier might be a good way to balance their power, unless you intend for the European nations to be stronger economically/militarily.

 

[Omega124]

What is the biege nation between saxony and prussia/yotvingia?

 

[Terran Empress]

What is the biege nation between saxony and prussia/yotvingia?

That is the Vandals

 

[SouthernKing]

A quick note that balancing should be taken carefully with that many European provinces dedicated to certain tribes. Modifier might be a good way to balance their power, unless you intend for the European nations to be stronger economically/militarily.

Thanks for bringing this up, this is a legitimately huge concern we hadn't really considered. They'll get slowed tech for sure; beyond that, reducing base tax/manpower/what have you for all those provinces and/or slapping negative modifiers on them I think would work.

A couple of questions:
-Who should Ile-de-France (Paris) go to? Terran wanted it as part of Francia but I'm reluctant to do that; I think it'd be much better if it were Muslim and Celtic.
-Britain/Prydain/Albion/whatever the hell it is called. While we're doing the Germanics, who goes here? I like the concept of a Britain divided between Celts and North Germanic/Norse invaders. My thought was to actually reverse historical migrations and make part/all of Ireland/Wales/Scotland Norse while the rest+England stays Celtic.
-Since the Levant is kinda finalized, and with a still-Jewish Israel, where is Christianity's western border exactly? I know Mecca is controlled by Christians (who presumably went through Arabia or by sea?) so that factors into it.

 

[Krzowwh]

My proposal for China's nations/states/factions:



I've kept the Daimyo Hou states rather large compared to vanilla Japan, as there is a large horde right next door. I have placed the Emperor in Anyang, but perhaps Luoyang might be better (but it looks better this way I think).

I don't think the Shogunate Hegemony should be a separate system from Huaxia, so I have tried to compromise the two. This way, the Han cultures are pushed slightly south while having Han rulers remain in about the same location, making each nation in the region something of a volatile melting pot.

I think that this set-up would be more reminiscent of the various periods of warring states in Chinese history, while still unique enough to be an enjoyable aberration.


Also, my suggestions for cultures (with alternate-historical names):

Spoiler :

 

[SouthernKing]

I'm just going to go with that and canonize it as its a lot, lot better and thought out than whatever I came up with.

 

[SouthernKing]

Updated map, edited with the new China

Spoiler :

Edit: New plan for India. The Alans (or Aorsi or whateverthehellyouwantocallthem) took a trip there sometime between the fourth and ninth centuries. However, because of reasons, they failed to take the Ganga valley and India's heartland, and eventually got deflected west into Gujarat and Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. So West India is now divided between a pair of relative powers (green and blue) with a number of petty buffer states. The blue-white nation in central Gujarat is going to be one giant shout out to Dalmasca to Final Fantasy XII, because I kind of imagine that's what this culture would look like. I have almost no idea what religion these guys would be. i want to make them Hindu because the idea of blond-haired Hindus tickles me (I totally don't sound racist I know) but either Buddhism or Zoroastrianism or some mix would probably make more sense.

Basically, between the Alans, the Hellenists in Delhi, the Christians in Indica, and the Buddhists elsewhere, all of north India is a giant powderkeg.

 

[SouthernKing]

Spoiler :

Finished the first draft Eastern Persia and Indian setups.

Nothing particularly special in Eastern Persia; the states there are all Catholic, and some possibly start off as vassals of Persia if we're going to keep on with the Persia-as-France analog.

Central India is a volatile powderkeg. Green power is not an Alan state, but a native, probably Buddhist state, against the ?Zoroastrian Alani blue power (who rule over a still largely Hindu/Buddhist populace). Teal is a Hindu tribal federation that formed to protect the region against incursions from the outside. The rest are petty states, probably the remnants of a recently collapsed largeish kingdom in the Deccan, where Indian Christianity is popular amongst some of the people although the rulers are Hindu.

Comments/questions/complaints would ofc be appreciated

 

[SamSniped]

That somewhat fits to my idea for the Hellenic Reformation, where the religion "reforms" into three separate monotheistic faiths that represent one of the big three:

Zeusism
Hadesism
Posideonism

And maybe Rome can have a special trigger if they revert back to Hellenic before the reformation, they can create a fourth one focused on Mars/Ares.

Iovism/Jovism, Plutonism, and Neptunism sound better IMO, but they ruin the original Hellenism idea :/

 

[Terran Empress]

So do we have any proposals for Rome yet?

Because if not, I know im not the resident Rome expert but I would like to throw in my opinion as well.

 

[SamSniped]

I was actually discussing it on chat earlier

Current idea:
Point of divergence: circa 509 BCE, instead of replacing Tarquinius Superbus with a republic, they overthrow him and replace him with a purely Roman king. This Roman line develops, with the state religion becoming based upon Romulus as the king of the gods, with parallels to Hellenistic gods developing (names may be straight Roman with Quirunus instead of Jupiter, or I might mix things up a bit; this religion is known as Quirinianism, or the Quirinian Cult). The monarchy becomes heavily entrenched in Roman tradition, and is either never replaced by a republic or is only overthrown due to another Lucretia-esque episode 500 years+ down the line. I'm not 100% sure how the land will develop, but a Rutulian state countering Rome to the north could be interesting. As for an Islamic influence...we'll see
Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Terran Empress]

I was actually discussing it on chat earlier

Current idea:
Point of divergence: circa 509 BCE, instead of replacing Tarquinius Superbus with a republic, they overthrow him and replace him with a purely Roman king. This Roman line develops, with the state religion becoming based upon Romulus as the king of the gods, with parallels to Hellenistic gods developing (names may be straight Roman with Quirunus instead of Jupiter, or I might mix things up a bit; this religion is known as Quirinianism, or the Quirinian Cult). The monarchy becomes heavily entrenched in Roman tradition, and is either never replaced by a republic or is only overthrown due to another Lucretia-esque episode 500 years+ down the line. I'm not 100% sure how the land will develop, but a Rutulian state countering Rome to the north could be interesting. As for an Islamic influence...we'll see
Suggestions are welcome.

well then, anyways so without further ado here is my proposal:



Regions:

Italia

• Italia - (White) an Oligarchic republic based off the government of the former republic. The region of the former Republic, being the center of power of the republic this region stayed fairly unified and protected from the limited migrations of the Germanic. They are the most powerful of the post Republic nations and are the most likely to reform the Roman Republic - Quirinian, but has a fairly large Muslim minority.
  
• Maritimae - (Vomit green)
• Cottiae - (Purple north of Maritimae)
• Graiae - (Pink north of Cottiae)

Illyria

• Illyria - (Illyrian red) The only province besides Italia that stayed perfectly united after the fall of the republic was Illyria, they are a major Rival to Italia's dominance, since the fall of the republic a (despotic) kingdom was declared. - Sunni with a very small Helenic minority

Gallia/Gual

• Aquitina - (Aquitine Red) One of the two halfs of the southern region of Gallia, Aquitina is a predominantly Muslim state but however is still very republican and uses a similar government as the former republic - Sunni Oligarchic republic
• Narbonensis - (Yellow) Aquitinia's Quirinian cousin, fearful of Itallia's growing strength and the growing Muslim population
• Celtica - (Pink) a predominantly Celtic (feudal) Kingdom that after the fall of Roman Republic was quickly taken over by their Celtic majority and the Latin rulers were thrown out. - Celtic Pagan with some minor Muslim influence

all states in Gallia can form the nation of Gallia (Gual for Celtica)

Hispania

• Citerior - (Orange) Citerior and Lusitania were the first roman areas to come under the influence of Islam, previously part of Tarraconensis, after the majority Sunni population rebelled it gained independence - Sunni Despotic Republic
• Tarraconensis - (Brown) having both a fairly large Sunni and Quirinian population this Quirinan state has recently lost the majority of its land to a rebellion and is fairly weak, however it can bounce back. - Hellenic Despotic Republic
• Lusitania - (Green) The governor of Lusitania declared himself King of Hispania after the fall of the republic, not many people agree with him, but he is still the governor of Lusitania - Sunni Despotic Monarchy

All states in the Hispania region can form the nation of Hispania


These states can form Rome:

Hispania
Gallia (not Gual however)
Italia
Illrylia

Rome is a cultural union for all Latin cultures

Magna Graecia

• Sicilia (Light Green)
• Pandosia - (Navy)
• Apulia - (Light Blue)

All members of Magna Graecia are part of the not HRE in Greece


My oppinion with the History:

I prefer the idea of rome becoming a republic but its up to SK

my Oppinion is once that Islam is formed it moves into the Republic, it quickly spreads and in some regions overtakes the old relgions of the areas. The Senate is split between the old religion and the new one, and most consuls are one or the other, however when one group got tired of the other a civil war ensued which destroyed the republic and the provinces became independent.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Just FYI Hellenic Ireland is now canon. I am pushing for a Hellenic Scotireland based of Dem Taqat's infamous nation, but I know other people want to do different stuff in Scotland. Also, I'm envisioning Ireland as this game's Portugal: Starts with explorers and lots NIs that encourage colonies. They should be in whatever tech group the Muslims are in to encourage Iberian nations to expand at some point as well.

 

[Krzowwh]

Methinks the Carpathia should be occupied by a Latin/Germanic/Iranian Buddhist state. Also, is there any possibility for a basic religion map as described?