Discussion in 'Imperium OffTopicum' started by SouthernKing, Sep 29, 2014.
Hindu Finnish state.
Out of sam vs terran, I like terran's idea for western europe better. I'm not sold on his draft, though. I might just make something myself later.
I vote no on hindu finns.
I know where Hindu Finland comes from but I dislike the idea.
First draft attempt:
-Tan: Catholicism (Babylonian?)
-Darker Tan: Orthodox (Nasrani?)
-Light Blue: Hellenists of some stripe or another
-Dark Blue: Buddhists of some stripe or another
-Dark-but-not-as-Dark Blue: Norse
-Dark Grey: Germanic (are this and the above the same?)
-Green: Islam (pending possible division)
-Orange: whatever the Native American religion is called, could also use division
I have no idea what's even happening in China religion-wise
the biggest difference is in the names of the deities, but its essentially Roman Pagan vs Greek Pagan
Modern English - Norse - Old High German
Odin - Óðinn - Wôtan
Tyr - Týr - Ziu/Cyo
Thor - Þórr - Donar
HOWEVER there are a few differences, for example Loki appears in NORTH Germanic (aka Norse) Paganism but not West Germanic
I would suggest keeping the two religions separate but in the same "religious group" IE similar to how Catholicism and Orthodoxy work they are both Christians but each religion considers the other a heresy.
Alright, I'll go with the above then.
Amongst other valuable cultural-related advice (Tibet is probably unrecognizable thanks to Greek influence and the Hakka were probably butterflied away) Tomorrow's Dawn has pointed out that Vietnamese don't exist TTL, so Champa has been added to fill in that gap between the Khmer and Nam Yuet. Han exile state in Australia is also confirmed, and will be added to the map once borders are figured out.
Also, Dawn has suggested Mithraism as a possible replacement for Christianity. I'm very reluctant to change all of Christianity, especially Pope-in-Babylon, but I've come up with a possible compromise - what if we changed the blob of *Orthodoxy in India-SE Asia to Mithraism? Come to think of it, it would make somewhat more sense than having random Christians blobbing off everywhere. Also because I'm 150% sure Mithraist Khmers and Mithraist Indonesia have never been done in anything before.
I've come up with a possible setup for East Africa to complete the Ethiopian Jihadist thing, though it's admittedly pretty bland. I'm sorely tempted to just get on with it and break up Egypt into 3-5 smaller states with a union tag. Thoughts?
Han China would probably be the same religion-wise, almost homogeneously Chinese Buddhist/folk religion/Shenist or whatever "Confucianism" is supposed to represent in-game. Probably some provinces in the west will have pockets of branches of Hellenism, Christianity, or Judaism that are deemed heretical. I'm thinking those in our Southern China, like the Yuet, are going to follow some traditional religion in the same religious group as the Chinese one. Of course, this might all change if Magyar is going to Manichaeist or something like that.
I thought about it a bit more, and I would strike down the possibility of any Greek-founded dynasties.
The supply lines between Greco-Bactria and China proper are indefensible, not to mention the Gobi prevents such an advance in the first place.
Bear in mind that the historical period after the Han collapse was a highly militarized one;
Cao Wei could effectively fight both Shu Han & Eastern Wu WHILE keeping the northern nomadic confederations in check.
A couple thousand Greeks crossing the Gobi/across the steppes to fight a battle hardened force like that is not happening.
I doubt the Greeks would conquer the Xiongnu steppes on the way there as well.
The idea of some brief Turkic founded dynasties or states is far more plausible; and perhaps a compromise can be reached if these Turks were Hellenized.
Bear in mind that after less than a century or so, they will likely look very different and already be Sinicized as well.
Also, if the invaders arrive at the collapse of the Han Dynasty and the Han are forced south, that also effectively erases the potential for all the disparate Yue ethnic states in the south.
They weren't ever that organized at that point in time. The Hmong state I feel may be able to stay.
But the Yue ones are sketchy as it was around this point in time where they were Sinicized OTL (under Shu Han & Eastern Wu control).
This one is very implausible, unless you make them Mohists, and even then,
it's pushing it, as trade-oriented forces in the region don't normally form states.
That is more or less a modern conceit from our era of Imperialism.
The name imo, is also kind of nonsensical.
I've given my thoughts on Serica by extension on what I said about Greeks above.
Yes, using Christianity and Islam is easy because we have the IRL frame of reference.
There is a necessity to break out of that comfort zone though. With a PoD that far back, it's pushing it beyond the boundaries of what we can recognize.
I've already outlined that a Cult of Mithra makes an excellent stand-in, especially as it was the historical precursor to Christianity in many, many forms.
We can justify keeping Arabian/Semitic polities in the Middle East as well by replacing Islam with a religion revolving around Ishmael.
For China, Buddhism & Taoism remain the standard. And I even expect the Hellenized Turkic remnants to follow the same,
as opposed to continuing Theoi worship or nomadic religions. We have IRL examples to go by, considering the Indo-Greeks became quite fervent patrons of Buddhism.
Japan and Corea will be very much unrecognizable.
Although a Han exile state in Japan would make sense for the setting;
even more so with Corea in fact. Even after the Han collapsed, there was still maintenance on the military outpost of Lelang Commandery in Corea.
The one in Australia could be a more modern development as far as the timeline goes.
I do not speak for the OP, only for my proposal which has apparently be made canon.
Yes, I also sensed some plausibility issues with a Greek conquest of China. However, I actually thought that the POD was far before the fall of the Han when I suggested my proposal, so I presumed that the post-Han nations would be different from OTL Three Kingdoms period. However, given the demand for Hellenic China, I tried to accomodate a Hellenic rump state by inserting a Greco-Tocharian alliance into my headcanon, which would allow a passage to Sichuan via Tibet, which was not yet organized at this point in time. This explains the survival of the Tocharian culture in my proposal and the larger spread east of said culture, a point which I should have elaborated upon earlier.
Quite valid, which is why I suggested having Xiongnu and Xianbei culture survive to serve as possible remnants from invasions, and not any Greco-Chinese mishmash culture, even in Xie.
Part of this discrepancy is due to the assumption I mentioned earlier of a early to mid-Han Dynasty POD. Even so, both states should be moderately Sinicized, about as much as Vietnam or Korea was at this point in time.
The survival of the Ryukyu Kingdom relied on its utility in trade in the East Sea. The Kingdom of Tondo arose due to maritime trade routes from the Philippines to China and Southeast Asia. As such, I don't believe this is implausible at all, given more than a millenium of divergence and the fact that the core would be isolated from any socio-political pressures.
As for the name, it shouldn't be etymologically and contextually any different from Balhae.
This is a very good and important point which I definitely agree with, although I don't believe the opinions of some others are the same. I suppose this could also be partially reconciled by making them variant sects of Judaism and changing the history and aesthetics.
I fail to see why we're keeping Germanic Paganism split while chucking all the Native Americans on one big religious heap.
I'll admit that there's some differences between Germanic and Norse paganism, such as Nehalennia in Zeeland, but as someone who actually likes playing natives, I find making the area bland is a bad idea.
I'll get up a suggestion for a religious map in a tad.
EDIT: Alternatively, for germanorse paganism, something like the Hindu chief deity mechanics can be used.
No one was not suggesting splitting the Native Americans on the map.
Also, Norse personal deities are going to be a thing for converted games in Art of War. We can just steal theirs.
a) In IOTspeak, "could use" means "I can't be bothered, you can't be bothered, let's ignore it" 70% of the time.
b) This requires someone reforming Germanic in CK2, converting that over to EUIV and then taking the code, which falls into the above "I can't be bothered". Copying the Hindu system and changing some art files along with the effects is much simpler.
If we do the latter I suggest looking towards the following:
and make Odin be the rune for O, Thor be the Thorn, etc.
Deities I'd suggest (also in case of the latter), with mostly military bonuses, as you'd expect.
Odin/Wodan - Discipline bonus +50%
Thor/Donar - Leader shock +1
Baldr - +1 diplomatic reputation
Frey - Reduced recruitment times by 10%
Njord - Reduced ship cost by 10%
Might have some balancing necessary.
Odin - The King of the Gods, so discipline seemed like a natural fit.
Thor - Silly pun is silly, but considering Thor's hammer is a big part of the mythology... He's also the god of Strength, so less punny than it seems.
Baldr - Baldr was described in the Gylfaginning as one of the fairest, and the best (he's one of those). Hence diplo rep goes up.
Frey - Frey is a fertility god, and he lost his sword after marrying, so quicker army construction seemed good. More manpower also interesting.
Njord - Njord is the god of the sea, seafaring and Earth, but since Frey gets land recruitment, I gave Njord worshippers better shipbuilding techniques.
And possibly a "minor god" one, which gives a smaller, more general bonus.
Might seem silly but does worshipping Shiva over another Hindu god make you better in a certain aspect IRL?
Bear in mind, Njordr is a Vanir hostage of the Aesir, and it is prophesied that he will survive the events of Ragnarok and return to the Vanir host;
so it has an interesting potential to be a splinter/heretical salvationist offshoot of the Nordic faith.
This would mean you could make an Aesir and a Vanir split actually - You'd just need to find a third Vanir (Njordr and Freyr are vanir)
Even though Freyr and Freyja are borne from Njordr; they are both counted as Aesir rather than Vanir.
A split would be difficult; it's been suggested that the Vanir are representative of original inhabitants in the Germanic regions and that the
Aesir and their triumph over the Vanir is representative of the Indo-European success over these tribes and their absorption.
For a Aesir-Vanir split to make sense, we need to know who these original peoples are.
Which is what I had a little bit of in mind when I thought of a Njordr offshoot;
its adherents are carrying a bit of the original culture and practices in mind, if not terribly mutated and within Nordic norms.
EDIT: Totally missed Krzowhh's earlier post way way back.
I couldn't agree more with Hata clan (OTL a prominent Japanese clan descended from Qin Shi Huang) actually.
In this scenario, it's probably the most likely candidate for the present inhabitants of Japan.
To be fair, the Yngling Saga places Asgard and Asaheim in Asia, beyond Vanaheim, i.e. Vanaheim, too, is in asia (which could honestly be anywhere in Russia). Njordr could be considered a Jarilo-esque knockoff (NORSE STRONK REMOVE FALSE PAGAN FROM PREMISE).
No, it just means look it up in the converter code. Shouldn't take more than five minutes at the worst. You're making it a lot harder than it has to be.
As per Vanir/Aesir, cived probably knows the most out of any of us on his own religion, but according to wiki both Freyja and Freyr are listed seperately as Vanir in their list of Norse gods. Plus there should be at least /one/ goddess in the entire list, so I don't see the problem of Odin/Thor/Baldr and then a Freyr/Freyja/Njord without redoing the Germanic situation. Wiki says one of her domains is gold, so maybe cheaper maintenance of armies?
Also in Norseland there should be a heretic faith devoted to Loki because Loki.
All assuming we just don't take Art of War's assets because seriously that is just easier.
Regarding China, it's probably best that we disregard everything that's in my post, as that was based on a relatively uneducated, now obsolete setup, which in turn was an artifact of before when this was a collaborative project. You also know far more than I do about East Asia, so I'll just. Hellenic China is there due to popular demand more than anything else.
Regarding Christianity/Islam, I would have agreed with you when I started this, and to an extent still do, but a lot of the setup since then has been based on the idea that Christianity and Islam both exist, and there's been a lot of comprehensive ideas related to either or both added that I don't want to have to entirely redo, since changing would affect a solid third or so of the map. That being said, both religions are probably virtually unrecognizable to their OTL counterparts, due to centuries of cultural differentiation and alternate migrations. Also, I fully support adding Mithraism, and unless anyone objects the South Indian-based religion is being changed to Mithraism (using Orthodox mechanics)
I'll canonize what you've added about Australia.
Oh, I have every intention of splitting the Native American religion, don't worry I just have no idea how to actually do this, complicated by the fact that everything between Texas and Brazil hasn't even been decided on yet. Maybe, considering Vinland's existence, a Norse-influenced hybrid religion of some sort popular amongst the Iroquois and Miami and their neighbors?
Regarding the Norse, I have no knowledge and thus no idea, but if the assets already exist it makes everything much easier.
Alright, so I said I would post my idea for Rome, so I am right now. See the attachment.
Iberia is the same as Terran's because I thought it was basically perfect as is. Only major change I would put is that Tarraconensis would be Sunni, and there would be no Hellenism at all in Iberia. Muslims got to have /some/ foothold in Europe, and Iberia would be the best place.
I broke up France into a bunch of random states. I'm not 100% sold on the colors; I just randomly picked colors I didn't use elsewhere. All the states should be Celtic culture and Muslim, and I would imagine most to be feudal monarchies (Although the maroon state in Britanny could be a noble republic IMO for variation). I can get names for the states later; for now the point is this:
Green and French blue are the two major Celtic powers (Green mostly because it controls ile-de-france, which is the best province in 1444), with yellow and papal grey being potential regional counterweights to the other two. The provinces next to Alemanni are all OPMs so they can potentially expand into France and become an Allemange-in-France.
Pink should have cores on maroon. Yellow AND Papal grey should have cores on orange. Papal Grey should have a claim on avignon, but not a core. Both French blue and Green should have claims on steel blue, to start the conflict between the two going.
Over in Italy, the nation is divided into two major nations. The red nation is called Italia (for the province of Italia), and is a Muslim depostic monarchy. Its capital would be Mediolanum (Milan). The purple nation is SPQR, and is an oligarchic republic. Lorewise, most of the general populace has converted to Islam, AKA most of Italy would be Muslim provinces. Most of the Hellenic holdouts are in the far south, in Naples, along with Roma itself. The latter is because the aristocratic patrician familes have, for the most part, refused to convert, and hold Rome itself under their grip.
Italia is ran by a former Roman general who is tired of the corruption and heathenry, and therefore is currently revolting against the Senate to establish a kingdom of his own. The senate has a larger army, but is plagued with high RR, mostly due to its own territory being mostly Muslim.
In game terms, Italia is at war with SPQR using the the independence war casus belli. If SPQR wins, it will outright annex Italia, although there will down the road be a Dynamic Historical Event about another, more general Muslim uprising in the north if the RR doesn't improve and its still Muslim. (and that Italia would start out as a republic). SPQR has cores on Italia, but not vice versa.
If Italia wins (and honestly it should most of the time), then it becomes independent, and SPQR will still hold all the territory it did at the beginning of the game. Italia will get a free claim on Rome itself, although there are no more railroaded wars between the two nations. If Italia takes Rome, there will be a decision for the general to declare himself Emperor of Rome. This would create a tag shift to the Roman Empire, and automatically move the capital to Rome. Roman Empire then gets cores on every province that currently has SPQR cores.
If SPQR or Rome ceases to exist, the other gets a decision called "End the Civil War". This removes the cores of the other nation, finally uniting Rome back into one republic. If Italia manages to win independence but never becomes Rome before SPQR noms it up, then it cores will stay since it never evolved past a regional revolt, and thus it will represent regional separatists. Regardless, the winner also gets cores on these two otherwise completely unrelated Italian states:
Syracuse (Sicily): Greek Feudal Monarchy, part of the Greek HRE.
Venezia: Culturally Roman but /Christian/ Merchant Republic (Kind of like how it is already). I think it would be kind of neat if Christianity had a limited spread up the Balkans, and managed to win out at least in one city, who managed to stay completely independent of Rome and the various holy wars in Europe as a whole because it's this world's equivalent of Switzerland (the economic bank of Europe).
BTW Corsica and Sardinia should be red. Edited it in on my comp but too lazy to reupload.
Alright there is a lot more work here than what I did IMO, I like the idea of a despotic monarchy, but i really really think that this mod NEEDS some more uniqueness in Europe, which is why I tried to do alot of republics in the former republic.
my Opinion, I worry that Gual will be very quickly over run by the far larger and thus most likely more powerful Germans especially the Franks and Allemange
I also dont like how ALL of France is celtic, i feel the southern states should be Latin IE they should be Aquitine/Occitan culture in the same cultural group as the Iberians and Romans.
Im not sure if i agree with the idea that Italia should win most of the time, when you say that I was thinking 80-90% of the games Italia would win, and while I like the idea of a Muslim Rome I prefer the a republic to a despotic kingdom which IMO just seems done to death with Islam, and that it would be a bit more interesting historically to have a more Republican Muslim states. I think it would be better if Italia won more about 65% of the time, just so we don't ALWAYS have a despotic muslim roman empire unless the player steps in.
Finaly, I hate you for coming with a better Illyria than I did, you didn't even put it on the map.
I agree that Illyria should be Christian.
BUT I don't think they should be catholic. They should essentially be this universes Ethiopia.
Finaly How did rome end up in this state, why is Gual and hispania indepdent, what caused the republic to collapse and these regions to become independent
I do support Megs's idea. Here's my input, which you're free to ignore as you wish: Venice would be cool as a Greek colony (maybe Greek controlled but Christian), Brittany/Armorica should be druidic to make an Asterix reference (the last of the true Gauls), and Muslim Italy should be republican for the reasons Terran outlined. Also perhaps some of southern Gaul should be Roman-something cultured.
Also, we do need to balance France/Germany to make sure France doesn't get immediately nommed by the Germans. I think making Germany a bit like Central Asia with large starts but relatively weak provinces and a slower techrate would work, meaning that the Germans start off threatening but become less so over time.
Illyria-as-Ethiopia is a fantastic idea.
Aside from that, slight edits: I've split up Egypt (presumably a formerly united country that has recently collapsed, currently undergoing a several-decades-long warring states period, with a union tag; this isn't an area that should stay divided for long) and added temporary fillers for the Hedjaz Crusader State and a Christian Arab state in the middle of the peninsula.
And to see what it looks like with Megs's setup:
Separate names with a comma.