Greece's obligatory Civ VII Thread

It just seems like a logical choice given their recent trend of using city-states to represent cultures that would be difficult to represent as civs--and it would have been a less gratuitous European addition than Wolin when Poland is in the game.
Can't disagree with that.

I think I remember someone at Firaxis describing Wolin as representing the Duchy of Pomerania, which technically was a vassal to the Holy Roman Empire more than it was a part of Poland.

I guess also having both Germanic and Slavic influences helped. :dunno:

Nalanda also kind of falls into that weird category when we do have India as a major civ.
 
Wolin was definitely a strange choice for city-state, but I don't mind. It is still better than Civ5 in which we had more than one city-state from the same civ.

Talking about the Greek design, I'd like Greece to receive some science bonuses in the next interaction, however subtle. If there is such a thing as Great Philosopher, maybe Greece could have a benefit here. I like Acropolis, I wouldn't want to lose this.
 
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Talking about the Greek design, I'd like Greece to receive some science bonuses in the next interaction, however subtle.
Greece plagiarized derived virtually all of its science, from the Pythagorean theorem to Archimedes' wheel to water clocks to astrolabes to saros cycles, from Babylon and, to a lesser extent, Egypt so I don't really want to see Greece as a science civ.
 
Greece plagiarized derived virtually all of its science, from the Pythagorean theorem to Archimedes' wheel to water clocks to astrolabes to saros cycles, from Babylon and, to a lesser extent, Egypt so I don't really want to see Greece as a science civ.
I'd want them to be Great Person focused so I don't mind a little science bonuses, if not at least being able to recruit great scientists easier.

Also if Alexander comes back as a leader they could easily carry over a form of Hellenistic Fusion as his leader ability.
 
Also if Alexander comes back as a leader they could easily carry over a form of Hellenistic Fusion as his leader ability.
I'd like Alex a lot more if they focused on Hellenism rather than his conquests. This would especially be interesting if ethnicity and culture is a feature in Civ7.
 
In the interest of having more representation from around the world I'd rather keep Greece down to one leader... And I kind of feel like that would have to be Alexander given his historical weight in the franchise... Even though I quite like having Macedon in the game...
 
In the interest of having more representation from around the world I'd rather keep Greece down to one leader... And I kind of feel like that would have to be Alexander given his historical weight in the franchise... Even though I quite like having Macedon in the game...
I'm okay with having two Greek leaders if it prevents us from having five Greek leaders. *glares at Civ6*
 
UU- Hoplite, get a powerfull specific free promotion based on the district the Scholeío of their city is located.
UB- Scholeío, can be build on different kinds of districts but just one per city, gives huge bonus for that district.
CA- "Hegemonía", each era you can choose a city to be your capital earning Eurekas/Inspirations boost related to the capital's Scholeío.

The idea is to exploit two of the big problem of Greece, 1- Being good on many aspects, and 2 - Being usually city-states (salvo Alexander). So you can choose which Greece you want to be and what your focus would be, using the Scholeío as the key feature for that.
 
I have an awkward question I didn't ask for a long time, like, why do you guys come up with detailed mechanical abilities of civs for a future game which will have different fundamental mechanics?
 
I have an awkward question I didn't ask for a long time, like, why do you guys come up with detailed mechanical abilities of civs for a future game which will have different fundamental mechanics?
It's fun to speculate?
 
I have an awkward question I didn't ask for a long time, like, why do you guys come up with detailed mechanical abilities of civs for a future game which will have different fundamental mechanics?
Because is fun to think on what would we like to see on game even if it is obvious that we would get something different. :p
 
I don't think the true origins of hoplites are known except they seem to coincide with the rise of the polis, Greek city-states, and declined during the Peloponnesian War.

There are currently three different sets of theories on the development of the Hoplite, but basically the pictorial evidence from painted pottery, sculpture, etc. points to a transition between 750 and 560 BCE possibly with a period in there where they were fighting with both the heavy thrusting spear and throwing javelins first (javelins apparently being the weapons of choice during the Greek 'Dark Ages' before 750 BCE). Hoplites, except in Sparta and a few 'elite' organizations like Thebe's Sacred Band were always Upper Middle Class Militia, providing their own weapons and armor. Since the Peloponnesian War lasted almost 30 years, the Hoplites couldn't afford to spend all that time away from their farms, so paid mercenaries began to take their place, and the mercenaries started fighting in looser formations with lighter 'sets' of arms and armor - enter the Peltast, which increasingly replaced the Hoplite in the 4th century BCE (Iphicrates of Athens is credited with starting to use Peltasts as his primary infantry force around 390 BCE) but some smaller city states kept a Hoplite Phalanx until almost the end of the Hellenistic period.

Greek Science was derivative, but Greek Engineering and Applied Science was surprisingly unique:
Lime Mortars (primitive concrete) was being used in Greece, Crete and Cyprus around 800 BCE - end of the Greek 'Dark Ages'
Grooves were being cut into large masonry parts to guide them into place by 665 BCE - an architectural technique not, as far as we know, derived from the Middle east or Egypt.
The earliest firm evidence for the Trireme, the 3-banked galley, is from Greece in 542 BCE, despite claims that it was invented by the Phoenicians.
First evidence for cranes and other mechanical-advantage hoisting machinery used in masonry construction is from Greece (Corinth, to be exact) in 515 BCE.
The first evidence of iron bars used to reinforce a stone structure is in the Propylaea on the Acropolis, built 440 - 430 BCE.

Sticking to Classical Greece, then, we could legitimately have a Greek Unique bonus to constructing monumental structures - like Wonders.
Unique Building: the Agora, the "market place" and also political forum, voting arena and center of every Greek polis. It has the advantage of potentially showcasing both the City State Politics and the individualistic Culture of the Greek city states.
Another Unique Building: The Akademe (Academy) or Lykeion (Lyceum) - Schools for Philosophers both of them, their in-game Unique ability could be to attract Great People at a faster rate, which neatly shows off the popular view of Classical Greece as a home for Great Individuals.

Unique Unit - stepping away from the Hoplite for a moment:
Trireme
Peltast

But even better would be to make a Unique out of the City State differences among the Greek polis: I like the idea of changing your Capital at some semi-random point to reflect the fact that no one city state dominated Greece for long.
Let's take it a step further, and when you change city-state Capitals, you also have the option of changing one of your Uniques: UU, UB, UA. That way the Greek Civ could potentially cram in all the variations.
 
I'd like Alex a lot more if they focused on Hellenism rather than his conquests. This would especially be interesting if ethnicity and culture is a feature in Civ7.
I still think you would need to conquer cities to use the ability like in Civ 6, but this at least would synergize him with the rest of the civs abilities.

And what will Academy replaces? Library? or entire Campus district?
I would say either Campus or even an earlier University. Agora is also a good choice if we want to branch out from the traditional unique infrastructure based off of Greek theater, which isn't even a bad choice either.
 
^ What should Greek Peltasts be? if they were so often described as javelineer as well as being 'cheap' phalanx infantry.
And what will Academy replaces? Library? or entire Campus district?

I would say either Campus or even an earlier University. Agora is also a good choice if we want to branch out from the traditional unique infrastructure based off of Greek theater, which isn't even a bad choice either.

Given that both the Akademe and Lykeion were 'advanced' educational institutions, I'd say make them an earlier University in the Campus District. That would allow them to influence both Great People generation and general "science" even if we are really modeling the Greek ability to take someone else's Science and run with it . . .

In fact, if we wanted to be 'realistic' (No, No, Four Times No! I hear the screams) the Unique Building could allow instant or near-instant researching of any Tech known by anybody else contacted by the Greek Civ. That would be potentially a huge Science boost, but situational, while the Great People bonus would be the 'core' advantage of the Unique.

The original Peltast was a Thracian "Heavy Scout" - fast, nimble in rough country, unarmored with a small light shield (target = Pelta) and throwing javelins. Iphicrates' and the Greek addition to this was a heavy thrusting spear and to start enlarging the shield until it became a head to knee heavy wooden shield, the Theuros ("door") - very similar to the long shield carried by the Celts and Gauls. At that point they had very nearly the same Anti-Cav capability as the Hoplite phalanx, but still had better mobility in rough country.
As a Greek Unique, I'd make them a replacement for the Spearman with a bonus to movement in Forest and/or Hills. IF Civ VII instead makes them a generic Unit (I know, Fat Chance) then I'd make them an Upgraded Scout and they would also be the 'standard' Unit for the early Germans, who were also largely unarmored spearmen good at fighting in rough country.
 
I would say either Campus or even an earlier University. Agora is also a good choice if we want to branch out from the traditional unique infrastructure based off of Greek theater, which isn't even a bad choice either.

Almost forgot: since a great deal of Greek poetry and 'writing' was intended to be declaimed in public in the Agora (including Homer, Hesiod, and Herodotus' work) , that structure as a Greek Unique Building could be a Market replacement that also has a Cultural bonus, even a place for a Great Work of 'Writing'.
 
Given that both the Akademe and Lykeion were 'advanced' educational institutions, I'd say make them an earlier University in the Campus District. That would allow them to influence both Great People generation and general "science" even if we are really modeling the Greek ability to take someone else's Science and run with it . . .

In fact, if we wanted to be 'realistic' (No, No, Four Times No! I hear the screams) the Unique Building could allow instant or near-instant researching of any Tech known by anybody else contacted by the Greek Civ. That would be potentially a huge Science boost, but situational, while the Great People bonus would be the 'core' advantage of the Unique.
Because the many famous greek schools is that I suggest a more broad term like Scholeío with the option to be build on different districts to point of the different focus on ideas from the different schools and at the same time the different ways that made famous each Polis.

The original Peltast was a Thracian "Heavy Scout" - fast, nimble in rough country, unarmored with a small light shield (target = Pelta) and throwing javelins. Iphicrates' and the Greek addition to this was a heavy thrusting spear and to start enlarging the shield until it became a head to knee heavy wooden shield, the Theuros ("door") - very similar to the long shield carried by the Celts and Gauls. At that point they had very nearly the same Anti-Cav capability as the Hoplite phalanx, but still had better mobility in rough country.
As a Greek Unique, I'd make them a replacement for the Spearman with a bonus to movement in Forest and/or Hills. IF Civ VII instead makes them a generic Unit (I know, Fat Chance) then I'd make them an Upgraded Scout and they would also be the 'standard' Unit for the early Germans, who were also largely unarmored spearmen good at fighting in rough country.
Keep Peltast Thracian, CIV7 could do good use of Minor Civs ally or conquer a Thracian city would allow you to train auxiliar Peltast (like Persians and Roman did).
 
Almost forgot: since a great deal of Greek poetry and 'writing' was intended to be declaimed in public in the Agora (including Homer, Hesiod, and Herodotus' work) , that structure as a Greek Unique Building could be a Market replacement that also has a Cultural bonus, even a place for a Great Work of 'Writing'.
I think a unique commercial hub could also work granting both culture and gold bonuses.
 
In fact, if we wanted to be 'realistic' (No, No, Four Times No! I hear the screams) the Unique Building could allow instant or near-instant researching of any Tech known by anybody else contacted by the Greek Civ.
Appropriate.

Keep Peltast Thracian, CIV7 could do good use of Minor Civs ally or conquer a Thracian city would allow you to train auxiliar Peltast (like Persians and Roman did).
I was about to point out how poorly we understand the Thracian language, but yeah, they'd be great as a minor civ.
 
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