Greece's obligatory Civ VII Thread

[Boris Gudenuf]

There's a lot of evidence that "king" was a dirty word for most Indo-Europeans. The Greeks considered monarchy the very mark of the barbarian (including those filthy Macedonians), the Latins hated the rex, and there's good reason to believe that Celtic rix and Germanic kuningaz/rekaz are better translated as "chief" than "king." Even the Hittites and Persians (and, later, Alexander) picked up the notion of the god-king from contact with their Near Eastern neighbors (and Augustus probably from Egypt).

Given that the 'Indo-Europeans" were pastoral groups, and given the evidence from every historical pastoral group (Native American, Scythian, Hun, even Mongol ) "King" seems to me to have been a title that was applied to them and their leaders from the Outside. In reality, their Leaders were subject to consensus, and even when they wound up with something resembling Monarchial Authority, i didn't stick. Two of the best known examples of Barbarian Kings, Attila and Chingis, both spent most of their careers clawing their way into control of their societies, and as soon as they died, Attila's empire fell apart and all the Mongol leaders had to run back home because Chingis's successor had to be confirmed: there was no automatic succession or 'God-Given" right to rule for anybody in those societies.

 

[Sirsquier]

I'd really like a Greece/Macedonia split. (But for me it's because of the more leaders/civs the better)

Leaders (Greece): Lysander (Spartan general) and Pericles (Athenian Politician) contrasting Greece's two greatest cities. (Yes I know we had Crete as well)
Unit: Hoplite (the classic Greek soldier)
Building: Acropolis (Yeah I know same as civ 6 but like it's good so whatever)

Now side note, I would not mind a Greece based off their WW2 selves. It's a time often forgotten but one of the times they showed their great defensive warrior spirit. Outnumber, with worse weapons, the greeks crushed the italian invasion

 

[Krajzen]

Wouldn't it be kinda refreshing to once have Mycenae, Archaic, Italiote or Hellenist Greece instead of Classical one? I don't know if it required multiple leaders or split but it would be nice to have them as some point

Mycenae civilization under some legendary/mythical figure, warlike bronze age
Greece with the capital in Syracuse or some other great Italian city
Hellenic Greece represented by the Ptolemaic or Seleucid Dynasty

And then we could go a step further and implement Greco - Bactrian/Greco - Indian kingdoms from Afghanistan/Pakistan, mixing multiple cultural aestethics and stuff, and offhandedly mention how Buddha statues, sculpture and iconography (which are present across the entire Asia to this day) have largely emerged from Greek - style sculpture of those multireligious kingdoms. Like seriously: Buddhist statues you can see today in Japan have their deepest artistic origins in hellenist art. There were no larger scale artistic displays of human figures in India before this fusion.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wouldn't it be kinda refreshing to once have Mycenae, Archaic, Italiote or Hellenist Greece instead of Classical one? I don't know if it required multiple leaders or split but it would be nice to have them as some point

Mycenae civilization under some legendary/mythical figure, warlike bronze age
Greece with the capital in Syracuse or some other great Italian city
Hellenic Greece represented by the Ptolemaic or Seleucid Dynasty

And then we could go a step further and implement Greco - Bactrian/Greco - Indian kingdoms from Afghanistan/Pakistan, mixing multiple cultural aestethics and stuff, and offhandedly mention how Buddha statues, sculpture and iconography (which are present across the entire Asia to this day) have largely emerged from Greek - style sculpture of those multireligious kingdoms. Like seriously: Buddhist statues you can see today in Japan have their deepest artistic origins in hellenist art. There were no larger scale artistic displays of human figures in India before this fusion.

Given that there have already been complaints about the number of Hellenes in Civ VI, we should probably confine ourselves to one Greek Civ in Civ VII. - well, maybe two . . .

That said, there are a bunch of alternatives to the perennial Classical Athens Or Else we've been getting in Civ games up to now.

I've posted elsewhere and elsewhen hat a Mycenean Greek Civ is perfectly doable, with a Leader like Agamemnon or Nestor, both of which are now more or less confirmed as real by archeological excavation of their palaces - or at least, no less real than Kupi or Gilgamesh as represented in Civ VI.

And as Syracuse was the largest city in the Greek-speaking world, I've also suggested a Greece based on that with Dionysius I as Leader and a Science basic based on his "Workshop" on Ortygia.

The Ptolemies and Seleucids, by the way, were Hellenistic, not Hellenic, but the one would be an intriguing Egyptian - Greek Fusion and the other a Greek - Persian Fusion Civ.

The "Greco-Bactrian Kingdom" would be another fascinating Fusion Civ: Greeks and Central Asian nomads (Sogdians, Bactrians, Scythians), Indians and Parthian/Persians. We have the names of several kings in two Dynasties, although there is not a lot of information on specific personalities among them. They cry out for some kind of Unique in which they can absorb characteristics of the Civs around them, since their army at various times included Greco-Macedonian Companion Cavalry and Phalanx, Scythian Horse Archers, Bactrian Cataphracts, and Indian Elephants.

 

[BuchiTaton]

They cry out for some kind of Unique in which they can absorb characteristics of the Civs around them, since their army at various times included Greco-Macedonian Companion Cavalry and Phalanx, Scythian Horse Archers, Bactrian Cataphracts, and Indian Elephants.

Pretty much Persians can do this with their auxiliars troops from those satrapies plus many more. Also I already have both Hephthalites and Gurkani empires covering the region around Bactria so no need for a hellenistic version of it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Pretty much Persians can do this with their auxiliars troops from those satrapies plus many more. Also I already have both Hephthalites and Gurkani empires covering the region around Bactria so no need for a hellenistic version of it.

As said, I don't think All the Hellenic/Hellenistic Civs need to be represented, and much as I'd like to include the Bactrian Kingdom just for the novelty and to give some gamers a "Teaching Moment", they can very adequately be represented by other Central Asian groups, since most of those groups shared many characteristics related to Inclusion, Trade, and Warfare.