Greek Alternative Leaders (Pre-Athens VS Spartar)

We essentially don't have any historically confirmed names for Minoans OR Mycenean leaders - only mythology.

City-states, sure, but leaders, we do not have the information for.
 
We essentially don't have any historically confirmed names for Minoans OR Mycenean leaders - only mythology.

City-states, sure, but leaders, we do not have the information for.

The Cretan Naval Hegemony wasn't Greek, so regardless of the lack of an intelligible language (which, based on every study of their Linear A script, was not even Indo-European, let alone Greek) leaders, personal names, or details about their society and politics, they don't fit into a "Greek" civilization. The Greeks re-used many of their place names, but note that words like Knossos are not Greek any more than Argos or Athens are (all are pre-Greek places already inhabited and named before any Greek ever set foot in them)

Now, with regards to the Myceneans, the ground isn't quite so shaky, but it's still pretty flimsy. Archeology has confirmed some of the details in Homer: a palace in the right place and time to be Nestor's, the citadel at Mycenae that matches the place and time for Homer's Agamemnon. But aside from Homer, we don't know any details of the political structure and politics of Mycenean Greece - other than that it was Greek in language and so presumably relatable to later Greek culture, and that it was not a unified polity of any kind: the evidence of multiple citadels and fortresses as well as Homer's grossly undisciplined mob at Troy both testify to a collection of squabbling city states.

Of course, Civ VI doesn't bother much with historical details if an identifiable Leader can be extracted from some other source, so a Mycenean State headed by an animated Agamemnon with much more authority than any Mycenean ever wielded is perfectly doable in game terms. The problem, IMHO, is that until they figure out a way to model City States better, their Mycenea will be a Fantasy Civ, like their current Greece or any theoretical Italian Renaissance Civ.

The real source for "Non-Athens versus Sparta" Leaders for Greece is to look at the earlier and later Classical City States themselves. Just in Non-Anti-Spartan Athens, you have potential Leaders like Cleisthenes (the real Father of Democracy) or Solon (whose name comes down as meaning a wise or learned man, and who was a law-giver, astute politician, battle leader, and possibly the world's first Tourist), or Peisistratos the Tyrant (who, in fact, was one of the first Populists, founder of the Panathenaic Games and patron of literature). Elsewhere, Polycrates of Samos, Jason of Thessaly, Dionysius of Syracuse (which was the largest 'Greek' city in the world, but gets No Love from any of the game designers!) are all candidates with at least as much influence on the rest of Greece in their day as any Athenian or Spartan leader in theirs.
 
The Cretan Naval Hegemony wasn't Greek, so regardless of the lack of an intelligible language (which, based on every study of their Linear A script, was not even Indo-European, let alone Greek) leaders, personal names, or details about their society and politics, they don't fit into a "Greek" civilization. The Greeks re-used many of their place names, but note that words like Knossos are not Greek any more than Argos or Athens are (all are pre-Greek places already inhabited and named before any Greek ever set foot in them)

^ If Cretans/Minoans aren't greeks then who they actually are? a different culture? another 'barbarians' compared to Greek's 'refinements' ? Yet another branches of Phoenixian or what?
Then 'Minotaur myth' was actually a 'Greek propaganda' to demonize Cretans which once 'extorted' them? (Minotaur was a symbol of cretan extortion or what?) and Perseus signify how Greeks defeated Cretans or a propaganda to portray that Greeks did outsmart Cretans in the end?

Now, with regards to the Myceneans, the ground isn't quite so shaky, but it's still pretty flimsy. Archeology has confirmed some of the details in Homer: a palace in the right place and time to be Nestor's, the citadel at Mycenae that matches the place and time for Homer's Agamemnon. But aside from Homer, we don't know any details of the political structure and politics of Mycenean Greece - other than that it was Greek in language and so presumably relatable to later Greek culture, and that it was not a unified polity of any kind: the evidence of multiple citadels and fortresses as well as Homer's grossly undisciplined mob at Troy both testify to a collection of squabbling city states.
^ Then Agamenon was more of Hegemon King than a definite King of One Greek Kingdom? And reasons for them to invade Troy was actually because Agamenon was losing respects amongs other members of the Helenic League and he wanted to unite other Greek members together or what or did he really create a propaganda of 'Evil Trojans' (or Hittites whom a suzeraine of Troy) to keep everyone in his league together and not against him? (or did 'Helen' really committed adultery against Agamennon because Trojan royalty offered more to her than what Mycenean had?)

If Hoplites were invented AFTER Mycenea. What are actually names of Greek troopers fought in Trojan War? Were they 'proto-hoplite spearmen'?

Of course, Civ VI doesn't bother much with historical details if an identifiable Leader can be extracted from some other source, so a Mycenean State headed by an animated Agamemnon with much more authority than any Mycenean ever wielded is perfectly doable in game terms. The problem, IMHO, is that until they figure out a way to model City States better, their Mycenea will be a Fantasy Civ, like their current Greece or any theoretical Italian Renaissance Civ.

The real source for "Non-Athens versus Sparta" Leaders for Greece is to look at the earlier and later Classical City States themselves. Just in Non-Anti-Spartan Athens, you have potential Leaders like Cleisthenes (the real Father of Democracy) or Solon (whose name comes down as meaning a wise or learned man, and who was a law-giver, astute politician, battle leader, and possibly the world's first Tourist), or Peisistratos the Tyrant (who, in fact, was one of the first Populists, founder of the Panathenaic Games and patron of literature). Elsewhere, Polycrates of Samos, Jason of Thessaly, Dionysius of Syracuse (which was the largest 'Greek' city in the world, but gets No Love from any of the game designers!) are all candidates with at least as much influence on the rest of Greece in their day as any Athenian or Spartan leader in theirs.

I don't really understand why Dionysius of Syracuse was forgotten? Is it because Syracuse was a mamber of Magna Graecia (Greek colony in Italy) or more associated to Italy and less to Greece?.
 
If Cretans/Minoans aren't greeks then who they actually are? a different culture? another 'barbarians' compared to Greek's 'refinements' ? Yet another branches of Phoenixian or what?
The same evidence that rules out the Minoans being Indo-European also rules out their being Semites like the Phoenicians. Some scholars suggest a relationship with the Etruscans and Rhaetians in an "Aegean" language family, but until Linear A is deciphered that is pure speculation and impossible to prove. A better potential relationship is to the Eteocypriots, but the Eteocypriots themselves are so unknown that that doesn't help much even if true. The Minoans are best regarded as "lacking sufficient evidence to say they were related to anyone but with enough evidence to say they were neither Greek nor Phoenician." And no, the Greeks certainly didn't regard the Minoans as unrefined; if anything they viewed the Minoans as a model culture to aspire to. Their admiration for the Minoans is readily apparent in Homer, whose oral history of the Minoans has been proven remarkably accurate by archaeology. Sadly, with no deciphered language and no named leaders, the Minoans remain too unknown to be a viable candidate for Civilization except as a Knossos city-state. Here's hoping they get added to Humankind as DLC.

Then 'Minotaur myth' was actually a 'Greek propaganda' to demonize Cretans which once 'extorted' them?
The Labyrinth was the Greek perception of the ornate Minoan palaces, such as the one at Knossos. But yes, the Sacred Bull seems to have been religiously important to the Minoans, doubtless imported from the Afroasiatic peoples they traded with (see also the Sacred Bulls in Egyptian and Canaanite religion, of which the Golden Calf might also be a reflection).

If Hoplites were invented AFTER Mycenea. What are actually names of Greek troopers fought in Trojan War? Were they 'proto-hoplite spearmen'?
Bear in mind that the Iliad was written down centuries after the events it depicted. The Iliad properly suggests the importance of chariot combat but fails to understand how chariot warfare actually worked.
 
The same evidence that rules out the Minoans being Indo-European also rules out their being Semites like the Phoenicians. Some scholars suggest a relationship with the Etruscans and Rhaetians in an "Aegean" language family, but until Linear A is deciphered that is pure speculation and impossible to prove. A better potential relationship is to the Eteocypriots, but the Eteocypriots themselves are so unknown that that doesn't help much even if true. The Minoans are best regarded as "lacking sufficient evidence to say they were related to anyone but with enough evidence to say they were neither Greek nor Phoenician." And no, the Greeks certainly didn't regard the Minoans as unrefined; if anything they viewed the Minoans as a model culture to aspire to. Their admiration for the Minoans is readily apparent in Homer, whose oral history of the Minoans has been proven remarkably accurate by archaeology. Sadly, with no deciphered language and no named leaders, the Minoans remain too unknown to be a viable candidate for Civilization except as a Knossos city-state. Here's hoping they get added to Humankind as DLC.

As I pointed out over in the Games2gether forum on Humankind after the first time they revealed it, their "Mycenean" Promachoi Emblematic Warrior is actually holding a Labys, which was a sacred Cretan symbol, and so neither Mycenean nor a weapon. Also, the artwork for their Emblematic Citadel looks an awful lot like Evan's reconstruction of the Palace at Knossos, so they actually have the artwork for Minoans done, and just incorrectly attributed to the wrong Faction!

The Labyrinth was the Greek perception of the ornate Minoan palaces, such as the one at Knossos. But yes, the Sacred Bull seems to have been religiously important to the Minoans, doubtless imported from the Afroasiatic peoples they traded with (see also the Sacred Bulls in Egyptian and Canaanite religion, of which the Golden Calf might also be a reflection).

All the "Palaces" on Crete have a basement/ground floor composed of a maze of storerooms, so in that respect the 'labyrinth' did exist. In fact, though, it indicates that the structures were as much storehouses for goods to be redistributed by the Leadership as required - there is a distinct parallel to similar 'palaces' with similar mazes of storerooms on the mainland Middle East, as at Beyce Sultan in southwestern Anatolia, where the 'maze' actually predates the Cretan structures by a few hundred years. They have also found skeletons of people in the foundations of the palaces, indicating that Human Sacrifice was part of the dedication of the buldings. The Sacred Bull appears in surviving altars in the Cretan Palaces, artwork, and of course, the famous Cretan Bull Dance - which, though, we can't be sure was entirely religious. I suspect, like modern American Christmas, it may have started as completely religious and wound up as more of an entertainment than a religious ceremony - but in fact, we are guessing or speculating here. The Bull was important to them, but it was also a religious symbol all over the Middle East and in religions as late as the Mithra Cult of the late Roman Empire, so it is by no means "Cretan" alone.

Bear in mind that the Iliad was written down centuries after the events it depicted. The Iliad properly suggests the importance of chariot combat but fails to understand how chariot warfare actually worked.

Archeological evidence added to the Iliad's possibly anachronistic depiction indicates a Mycenean 'military' consisting of Aristocratic or Oligarchic 'Big Men' with bronze armor, weapons, chariots, etc, followed by infantry with spears, shields (bull hide) and very little armor: except for the lack of iron weaponry and substituting chariots for horses, very similar forces to those that trailed behind the kings of Europe 2000 years later! The key point is that the Big Men seem to have primarily used javelins as their missile weapons but been so well equipped with melee weapons (maces, axes, short swords, spears) that they probably dismounted from the chariots and fought primarily on foot. The social structure indicated by the archeology and the Iliad is strictly Feudal with the mass of the army being of relatively little importance or effect compared to the well-equipped 'spearhead'. This is borne out by the numerous citadels and fortresses all over Mycenean Greece, indicating a lot of warriors with the ability to defy any higher authority at will - and, of course, the Iliad is all about Agamemnon's inability to impose his will on the 'Leading Warriors" of his army even when they are all together in the field.

The Chariot Warfare depicted in the Iliad, in fact, bears more resemblance to much later Celtic chariot warfare, in which the Chiefs rode into battle, dismounted, dueled, and jumped back into the chariot to bounce away at will, rather than the massed charges of the Hittites or mounted archery of the Egyptians. This either means it was pretty primitive and archaic compared to the near-contemporary Middle East, or possibly it indicates the earlier chariot warfare of the steppes (and remember, that's where the Greeks came from, not that many centuries before the Iliad is estimated to have originated) and less sophisticated 'Imperial' armies.
 
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The Sacred Bull appears in surviving altars in the Cretan Palaces, artwork, and of course, the famous Cretan Bull Dance - which, though, we can't be sure was entirely religious. I suspect, like modern American Christmas, it may have started as completely religious and wound up as more of an entertainment than a religious ceremony - but in fact, we are guessing or speculating here. The Bull was important to them, but it was also a religious symbol all over the Middle East and in religions as late as the Mithra Cult of the late Roman Empire, so it is by no means "Cretan" alone.
Yes, that's what I was pointing out, that they got it from Asia. I knew Sacred Bulls were part of the Magna Mater mysteries, but I didn't know they were part of the Mithras mysteries.
 
I can see Myceneans or Minoans getting in a fantasy/mythology spin-off game, or at least have elements of them in a "Greek" faction.
But for official titles like Civ 7 and beyond I think the best case is a Knossos city-state.

Let's not forget about Pella. :mischief:
 
^ Pella. Wasn't it a seat of Macedonia where Iscandar oops Alexander III launched his legendary eastward conquest?
And if Knossos is to be CS.
1. What should be Knossos affinity? (Faith, Commerce, Science, Culture, Military)
2. What should be a unique item (in Civ6 terms) granted to a suzerain player? Labyrinth or Minotaur super infantry (and what should this unit do? debuffing any enemies surrounding this unit in addition to superior attack).
 
^ Pella. Wasn't it a seat of Macedonia where Iscandar oops Alexander III launched his legendary eastward conquest?
Yes Pella was the capital of Macedonia, which could theoretically be a separate civ again or folded under a Greek civ again, at least for Civ 7.

And if Knossos is to be CS.
1. What should be Knossos affinity? (Faith, Commerce, Science, Culture, Military)
2. What should be a unique item (in Civ6 terms) granted to a suzerain player? Labyrinth or Minotaur super infantry (and what should this unit do? debuffing any enemies surrounding this unit in addition to superior attack).
I'd probably make them a culture city-state, though faith would work too. I wouldn't give them any fantasy bonuses like a minotaur UU or labyrinth unique infrastructure. Something that hasn't been done is a unique city-state project. Maybe you could do a Bull Cult Ritual city-state project in your capital or city with the government plaza which grants faith and culture bonuses.
 
Yes Pella was the capital of Macedonia, which could theoretically be a separate civ again or folded under a Greek civ again, at least for Civ 7.


I'd probably make them a culture city-state, though faith would work too. I wouldn't give them any fantasy bonuses like a minotaur UU or labyrinth unique infrastructure. Something that hasn't been done is a unique city-state project. Maybe you could do a Bull Cult Ritual city-state project in your capital or city with the government plaza which grants faith and culture bonuses.

Crete, even before the Phoenicians, was the first great Commercial State that we know of in the world: they traded from the Black Sea to Spain, and their navy was so overwhelming that none of the palaces on Crete had any defensive walls - no enemy army could make it across the Aegean Sea to attack them.

On the other hand, since we already have Phoenicians as Sea-Commercial in the game (and it's hard to see what kind of Unique Attribute you could give Phoenicians other than Trade - Sea related) Culture or Faith is probably a better bet in game terms. There's no indication that they 'spread' their religion at all, but their decorative artwork is both distinctive and very sophisticated - murals, jewelry, gold and silverwork, possibly textiles if the clothing worn by people depicted on the murals and frescos is any indication - they all show a high degree of artistic style and technique. Also, a Unique manufactured/artwork Luxury Good would also inherently boost their trade which would tie into their historical Commercial prowess.
 
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