New and Changed Civilizations in 1.18

[Leoreth]

I would not draw too many conclusions from the current version of the mod. A lot of things change due to the new map and with UHVs being adjusted along the way.

I am currently in the process and going through all civs to make sure that every civilization has a baseline of historical verisimilitude, balance with its competitors, and viability of their victory goals. If I discover glaring issues with the Netherlands I can address them then.

 

[Askii2D]

The saves I still have are all viable ones unfortunately. Best I can do is share general trends from memory of experience. The biggest variable is Portugal: the most common unfavorable situation I've seen for the player is that the Ports haven't settled overseas at all, even more severely reducing your already-limited UHV #2 options. Next is France, which has potential to take off in tech settle Guyana. Third is the state of Indonesia, the usual thing being Independent cities packed with numerous and highly promoted defenders and/or island cities that have to be assaulted amphibiously. Sounds like you've had mostly good luck?

EDIT: On a whim a ran new game and popped out a perfect example. 600AD/Monarch/Normal.

Thx! I'll try it then!
I played marathon and invaded Britts with some luck rest was quite easy

 

[BaneFire]

@Leoreth you mentioned beefing up Independents which I definitely think is necessary, sometimes it's way too easily to just streamroll a bunch of them in a few turns. However as mentioned with the Indonesia situation, I think an unfavourable situation is when Independents end up with 4 Crossbowmen with City Defender II... on a hill. With a decked out treb-heavy swordsman army you can take these, but if you have complications such as naval landings then this becomes less possible. Maybe there should be something like a bonus vs Crossbowmen available to Arquebuisiers, just as Musketeers have the bonus against Arquebuisiers?

 

[CivEnthusiast]

Hoping I'm writing this in the correct discussion thread.

I do wonder though about how would the Early Medieval Eastern Europe be reworked in 1.18. Like for example, it would be good to see Itil emerging as an Independent by around 650 AD representing the Khazar Khanate, also with the Judaism religion and with the potential of being conquered by the Central Asian Turks later on. Then also Volga Bulgaria as a Bulgar Independent city-state around the same date being 650 AD, and later it may rename to Kazan upon conquest either by the Mongols or by the Muscovites.

As for the Rus' itself, before Kyivan Rus' spawns, there could be a Holmgard Independent city-state emerging at around 800 AD which would later get renamed to Novgorod upon flipping to Kyiv. One of Kyivan Rus' historical conquest goals could be controlling Bulgaria, Volga Bulgaria, Khazaria and Crimea (the latter renamed to Tmutarakan upon conquest) by 1000 AD, with all these representing the conquests of Sviatoslav I in 960s.

Additionally, it feels like the current version of the game is lacking on some Early Medieval migrations which could be represented through the Slavic Horsemen together with the Avar and Bulgar Hordes invading Byzantium by around 650-700 AD. Since the Kyiv's official foundation date is like 482 AD, it could potentially exist as an Independent city-state way before the Kyivan Rus' civilization emerges at 880 AD, representing the Early Slavic settlements and also being conquerable by the Avar and Bulgar Hordes passing by and who'd also have a city in the Pannonian Basin under their control from where they'd be launching the majority of their raids

All the mentioned Barbarian or Independent cities might better have "stacks" of horsemen, axemen and swordsmen units so that let's say Koreans or Tamils letting their units roam around the Eurasia and just stumble upon those cities weren't able to conquer them completely randomly.

 

[Leoreth]

Sorry for never replying to this, but I can confirm that minor city spawns exist for Volga Bulgaria and Khazars.

 

[Leoreth]

Don't do this.

 

[freethink]

Don't do this.

Not trolling, but what is the matter? (I just got back from a long civ break)

 

[Leoreth]

The post this was in reference to has already been deleted. Don't worry about it.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Not trolling, but what is the matter? (I just got back from a long civ break)

Sorryyyyy I was the one being (rightly) admonished.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

The post this was in reference to has already been deleted. Don't worry about it.

Can I make good with a few cups o' coffee?

 

[Leoreth]

No need.

 

[Lokki242]

Hey! Long time no post here. Always so impressed to see the hard work and dedication Leoreth. I was thinking of taking the time of making my suggestion for a potential eventual inclusion of the Haudenosaunee (and why I use that name!) as a civ that hopefully meets the criteria I've seen you discuss previously, along with some sources that I think could support my perspective--with no urgency in mind, considering your voluntary and always considerable workload! Would this be the correct place to post?

Though I have always loved history, I do feel a connection with many hours playing your modmod ever since I was a kid at the start of the 2010s, and pursuing my Master's in history today. Sorry to be so corny and vulnerable in so banal a place, but I hope you are well, your work has certainly played a meaningful role in my life!

 

[Leoreth]

Hey, thanks for the nice words. It's always nice to see old faces in this forum (yeah I remember most people who were active here at some point) and to hear that the mod had such a lasting impact on you. That is exactly what keeps me dedicated!

Discussions and suggestions for new civs are always welcome. However, I don't think this is the right thread for it, I do not want it to get sidetracked with the back and forth on civilizations that are unrelated to 1.18 (and it could confuse people who only skim the thread). You are always welcome to make a separate thread, or use this long established thread for civ ideas in general.

Let me just briefly say that North American native civs are something that I would like to do at some point, and among those the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee are among the top candidates. These civs are not the highest priority among potential added civs overall though, and there are some challenges that need to be solved first. I don't think you can represent a non-state, non-sedentary civilization in the game right now using the current mechanics, and I am not entirely sure what the mechanics would need to look like to do them justice. There has been discussion on that somewhere in the forum as well.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

All in all, the 1.18 version as it already is planned to be upon the release would definitely be absolutely enjoyable with so much new civs being added already. The following ideas drop would be about the potential inclusion of a few more civs way in the future after the initial 1.18 gets released.

I do wonder though, is there also a potential for the Gothic civilization in the more distant future? Starting as the "barbarian" Gothic Horsemen and Axemen units first spawning on the Ukrainian and Romanian territory at around 200-300 AD, then spawning in the Balkans and Italy at 350-400 AD to be able to attack the Roman cities in Italia, and then spawn as a full on civilization at 418 AD with the capital in Aquitaine, with the cities in Iberia or even in Italia as well to represent Ostrogoths flipping to them eventually. Then after existing uninteruptedly until 711 AD, the Moors flip most of the Iberian peninsula to them, causing the Goths to collapse.

The Spanish civilization then would spawn not in Madrid in such scenario, but in the Asturias region, lettting Reconquista to be more of a gradual process throughout the Medieval era. I don't know whether it is already changed for the 1.18 version of the game or not, however the current 1.17 version has the Spanish civilization spawn right away with the capital in Madrid and right after the Moors spawn, making half of the peninsula look already pretty "Reconquered" unless the Moors defeat and vassalize early Spain which in turn prevents the further Reconquista at all until the Moors overextend and collapse themselves by the Renaissance era.

An additional suggestion is the representation of the Hungarian or the Caucasian peoples, with the latter potentially represented by the Armenian civilization. All two would be rather small, however there're already are pretty much the existing examples of such civilizations with either one or two cities such as Korea, Khmer, Tibet or Thai.

Armenia could remain respawnable throughout all of the game since when they may first spawn as Urartu, later proceeding to have the conquest of the Tigran's Greater Armenia territory among their historical goals. Medieval Hungary could have a city in Croatia flip to them at the spawn taking place at roughly 900 AD, later having a challenging struggle to survive against the Austrian and the Ottoman assaults in the Renaissance era.

There's also however a question with the Southern Slavic civilization being represented by the Bulgars and the Bulgarian Empire, however I fear that it may clutter the Balkans on the 1.18 map quite much already, unless there already were plans or ideas discussed about it.

 

[GuitarDemon]

I think a reconquista would be awesome. I think the medieval Era needs more combat. In the same vein I'd recommend letting Arabia have to play out their early Muslim expansion.

Idk how everyone else feels about it but any situation that allows more combat I'm a fan of lol

 

[BaneFire]

Agreed fully. My vision is a significantly larger number of barbarian and independent cities in Europe ahead of Civ spawns, representing the various civs (Veleti, Balts, Alans, Gepids, South Slavs, Bulgarians, etc.) that don't fit into existing civs. To compensate, maybe greater starting armies for European civs, or some unit-spawning events.

I think a reconquista would be awesome. I think the medieval Era needs more combat. In the same vein I'd recommend letting Arabia have to play out their early Muslim expansion.

Idk how everyone else feels about it but any situation that allows more combat I'm a fan of lol

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Is the Ai actually supposed to complete historical goals?
Because it's a bit weird that Rome almost always fails to settle Iberia, or doesn't reach England

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Maybe certain Ai civilizations should be granted settlers, like they are get free armies to help the Ai conquer?
Or otherwise they could get bonuses for making them in certain eras.
Greece could have easier time settling the east + Italy and black sea, also expanding much more historically, and Rome could settle all of Europe and north Africa.

 

[Lokki242]

Hey, thanks for the nice words. It's always nice to see old faces in this forum (yeah I remember most people who were active here at some point) and to hear that the mod had such a lasting impact on you. That is exactly what keeps me dedicated!

Discussions and suggestions for new civs are always welcome. However, I don't think this is the right thread for it, I do not want it to get sidetracked with the back and forth on civilizations that are unrelated to 1.18 (and it could confuse people who only skim the thread). You are always welcome to make a separate thread, or use this long established thread for civ ideas in general.

Let me just briefly say that North American native civs are something that I would like to do at some point, and among those the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee are among the top candidates. These civs are not the highest priority among potential added civs overall though, and there are some challenges that need to be solved first. I don't think you can represent a non-state, non-sedentary civilization in the game right now using the current mechanics, and I am not entirely sure what the mechanics would need to look like to do them justice. There has been discussion on that somewhere in the forum as well.

Thanks for the point in the right direction! It may take me some time for as I'm busy myself! For now I'll say I have followed much of the previous discussion as I could and have thought about some mechanics that at least work for the Haudenosaunee, as well as how they might operate differently from other Native American civs that would make sense for their inclusion ahead of people like the Lakota, Comanche, etc, but I'll save that for now!

 

[Leoreth]

Is the Ai actually supposed to complete historical goals?

No, the AI is not aware of historical goals at all and by default, the game does not check for the historical goals of non-player civilizations.