New and Changed Civilizations in 1.18

[Leoreth]

Like I announced in the "Alternative Map during 1.18", I have just finished adding all new civilizations to the map branch, as well as implementing many changes to the existing civilizations.

Before I go into details, some notes on these changes. The new civilizations were based on some preliminary plans I've had for them for some time, but as usual not all of them were possible for implementation, game design, or asset availability reasons. So I adjusted my plans on the fly. I also did some minimal but by no means complete balancing for them to ensure they make sense. For changes to the existing civilizations, they are based on notes I have been keeping for a long time, particularly as a result of the "Civilization Attributes open discussion" thread. But in other cases they were necessitated by attributes of the new civilizations, e.g. buildings moving around or changing to avoid being too similar, or colours being changed to have a sensible regional arrangement. However there are also some things that I would like to change but so far have not come to a good decision what the replacement should be, so if something is missing that is likely the reason.

Most notably, I did not implement historical victory goals for the new civilizations yet (or even fully designed them, although I have some ideas). Likewise I did not implement any plans or suggestions for changes to the UHVs of existing civilizations. The reason for that is that these goals are best balanced or checked for being practical / achievable / challenging / interesting / fun when actually playing their civilization, which I have not had sufficient time for yet. More on the plans on that in the other accompanying thread.

Likewise, please do not approach these attributes as final or fully balanced. While feedback is welcome, please keep in mind that if things are too weak/strong, they are likely going to be balanced during active playtesting, which is more effective than doing so pre-emptively based on theoretical considerations. Also every building, unit, leader, power etc. is liable to be changed or replaced if I think that would be better, and it's possible that further leaders or unique units will be added. Please keep this in mind when reacting to the changes.

With that said, here is a full list of the new civilizations as they are right now:

• Assyria
  • Birth: 2600 BC
  • Leader: Ashurbanipal
  • Unique Units:
    • Siege Ram (Catapult): -1 strength, no collateral damage, requires Leverage
    • Azmaru (Spearman): +50% city attack
  • Unique Building: Kalliu (Stable): +1 trade route
  • Unique Power: First Empire: no resistance in conquered cities
• Hittites
  • Birth: 1800 BC
  • Leader: Murshili
  • Unique Unit: Huluganni (Chariot): +1 strength, +25% hills attack
  • Unique Building: Bloomery (Forge): requires Bloomery, +100% construction speed with Iron
  • Unique Power: Charcoal: melee units can remove forests
• Nubia
  • Birth: 1070 BC
  • Leader: Taharqa
  • Unique Unit: Medjay (Archer): +1 strength
  • Unique Building: Mudbrick Pyramid (Monument): +2 production
  • Unique Power: Baqt: no bad relations from different state religion
• Celts
  • Birth: 600 BC
  • Leader: Brennus
  • Unique Unit: Oathsworn (Light Swordsman): 2 moves, +25% city attack
  • Unique Building: Metalworker: requires Bloomery, no engineer slot, +3 melee unit experience
  • Unique Power: Druids: units heal on forest tiles like in friendly cities
• Toltecs
  • Birth: 200 BC
  • Leader: Topiltzin
  • Unique Unit: Atlatl (Skirmisher): +25% strength against melee and archery units
  • Unique Building: Obsidian Workshop (Jeweller): +1 happiness from Obsidian, +3 melee unit experience
  • Unique Power: Artisans: +1 production and +2 culture per specialist
• Kushans
  • Birth: 135 BC
  • Leader: Kanishka
  • Unique Unit: Asvaka (Horseman): +1 strength, starts with Mobility
  • Unique Building: Caravanserai (Post Office): requires Contract
  • Unique Power: Syncretism: receives gold for spreading religions that are not the city's state religion
• Malays
  • Birth: 500 AD
  • Leader: Sri Jayanasa, Tun Perak
  • Unique Unit: Djong (Galleass): +100% coast defense, +50% against Privateer
  • Unique Building: Gudang (Lighthouse): +2 commerce on improved spice, dye, and sugar tiles
  • Unique Power: Straits: +2 trade routes in cities with two or more landmasses in within their third ring
• Java
  • Birth: 716 AD
  • Leader: Hayam Wuruk, Suharto
  • Unique Unit: Silat (Swordsman): +30% retreat chance, starts with Amphibious
  • Unique Building: Candi (Monument): +1 engineer slot
  • Unique Power: Island Agriculture: double effect for food improvements on small landmasses
• Burma
  • Birth: 849 AD
  • Leaders: Anawrahta, Bayinnaung
  • Unique Units:
    • Kyundaw (Spearman): cheaper to build, +25% retreat chance
    • Cassay (Dragoon): starts with Pinch, Blitz
  • Unique Building: Kyaung (Library): +1 priest slot, +2 happiness
  • Unique Power: Dharma Kings: can use unlimited Great Prophets for Golden Ages
• Rus
  • Birth: 880 AD
  • Leader: Yaroslav
  • Unique Unit: Druzhina (Heavy Swordsman): 2 moves, does not require Civil Service, starts with Flanking, Woodsman I, River Combat*
  • Unique Building: Volok (Wharf): requires Navigation, requires river instead of coast, reduced cost
  • Unique Powers: Varangians: +1 commerce for unimproved land tiles in your trade network
• Vietnam
  • Birth: 938 AD
  • Leader: Le Loi
  • Unique Unit: Rattan Archer (Longbowman): starts with City Defender I and Woodsman I
  • Unique Building: Water Puppet Theatre (Theatre): +1 artist slot, units start with Amphibious
  • Unique Power: Resistance: unit receive defense bonus of their own tile when attacking within their own territory
• Swahilis
  • Birth: 957 AD
  • Leader: Suleiman ibn Dawud
  • Unique Unit: Dhow (Cog): +2 moves, +25% retreat chance
  • Unique Building: Island Fort (Castle): requires coast, +1 trade route
  • Unique Power: Palm Trees: can construct coastal improvements without removing forest and savanna
• Sweden
  • Birth: 1252 AD
  • Leader: Gustavus Adolphus
  • Unique Units:
    • Carolean (Musketman): requires Combined Arms, starts with Formation and March
    • Hakkapeliitta (Pistolier): requires Firearms, starts with Shock and Pinch
  • Unique Building: Soldattorp (Barracks): +25% land unit production, units start with Drill I
  • Unique Power: Lagom: +50% great people birth rate while cities celebrate

These are the colours and coat of arms of the new civilizations:

In order: Assyria, Hittites, Nubia, Celts, Toltecs, Kushans, Malays, Java, Burma, Rus, Vietnam, Swahilis, Sweden

And a (hopefully complete) list of changes to existing civilizations:

• America
  • Unique Units:
    • Removed Minuteman
    • Supercarrier (Carrier): +6 strength, +2 cargo space, +1 move, 30% interception chance, starts with Medic I, Sentry
    • Flying Fortress (Bomber): +4 range, +25% collateral damage limit, 25% chance to evade interception
  • Unique Power: Manifest Destiny: additional population and temporary happiness for cities after immigration and when nearby resources are improved
• Argentina
  • Unique Building: Refrigeration Plant replaces Abattoir
• Aztecs
  • Unique Building: Calmecac (Library): +3 experience for melee units
• Brazil
  • Unique Building: Sambadrome (Arena): +2 happiness, +1 happiness per 5% culture rate
  • Unique Power: Cordiality: cities are guaranteed to celebrate when requirements are met
• Canada
  • Unique Power: Multilateralism: double trade route yield from years of peace
• Tamils -> Dravidians
  • The Tamils have been renamed to Dravidians to strengthen their connection to Telugu and Kannada polities and most importantly Vijayanagara
  • Unique Building: Gopuram (Civic Square): +10% food
  • Unique Power: Trade Guilds: +10% trade route yield for every traded resource
• Netherlands
  • Unique Unit: East Indiaman renamed to Fluyt
  • Unique Building: Dike renamed to Polder
• England
  • Unique Building: Exchequer (Courthouse): requires Judiciary, +1 trade route, +1 statesman slot
• France
  • Birth: 496 AD
  • Unique Units:
    • Removed Guard
    • Gribeauval (Cannon): 2 moves, starts with Pinch
• India
  • Unique Power: Purity: one extra health from buildings that provide happiness
• Iran
  • Unique Building: Bagh (Park): requires Aesthetics, reduced cost, +2 happiness, +2 food
• Khmer
  • Birth: 50 AD
  • Unique Power: Canals: can convert 25% of production into food in the capital
• Mande
  • Mandinka renamed to Mande to better reflect the new time period
  • Birth: 300 AD
  • Unique Units:
    • Farari (Lancer): does not require Iron, starts with River Combat* and Desert Adaptation
  • Unique Building: Wangara (Market): +2 commerce on improved Copper, Gold, Ivory, Salt
  • Unique Power: Long Distance Trade: double trade yield from distance for inland cities
• Mongols
  • Unique Building: Ortege (Stable): +1 trade route, +2 experience for light and heavy mounted units, +2 food on improved Horse, +1 food on improved Cow and Sheep
• Mughals
  • Unique Units:
    • Sowar (Cuirassier): +25% city attack
• Persia
  • Unique Building: Qanat (Aqueduct): +1 food on improved Dates, Cotton, Opium, Spices, Wine
• Phoenicia
  • Unique Building: Glassmaker (Jeweller): requires Contract, +50% trade route yield, +1 merchant slot
• Poland
  • Unique Power: Folwarks: +1 commerce from Farm and Pasture
• Portugal
  • Unique Units: Carracks can bombard cities (8% per turn)
• Rome
  • Birth: 509 BC
• Russia
  • Birth: 1263 AD
  • Unique Building: Katorga (Jail): +4 production, -50% anger duration from sacrificing population
  • Unique Power: Hardship: unhappiness from hurrying and drafting is applied to your happiest city
• Thailand
  • Birth: 1238 AD
  • Unique Building: Floating Market (Market): requires river, +2 food

In addition to that, the colours and coat of arms of some civilizations have changed. Instead of listing them, I will just show them. In particular, I made sure that civilizations sharing another civ's colour (Persia, Italy, Mexico) now have their own distinct colour.

In order: Harappa, Persia, Maya, Korea, Khmer, Japan, Italy, Portugal, Inca, Thailand, Ottomans, Mexico, Argentina.

*River Combat is a new promotion that grants +25% attack along rivers, i.e. if both the unit's tile and the target tile are next to a river.

And that's all. Feel free to discuss, but keep the additional context I mentioned on top in mind. Especially, discussion of UHVs is not very useful right now. I will get to it in a bit and we can have the conversation then - it's much more likely to have an impact when I have the bandwidth to act on it.

 

[Dracosolon]

Great to hear! Some reactions (not so much feedback but questions/remarks):

- Nubia seems focused on the pagan period, except for its UP. I guess we'll see what that means for the general design of the civ.
- The Celtic UB means a surviving civ will have no Engineer slot until the Industrial era, a strong nerf.
- For the Malay Up, wouldn't basically every one of their tiles qualify?
- For the Rus, I'm not sure how a trade network tile is defined.

- For America, I assume the Pioneer is still in, so that means three UUs? But they're late game so their potential is more limited (makes sense given a war of independence is now basically impossible, and an early conquest would be ahistorical).
- Aztecs do not get their synergy with hurrying anymore? Still, a bonus to melee will make their wars with Natives less hazardous.
- Glade to have the French Cannon UU back.
- For India, having the health bonus on religious buildings instead would make more sense to me (more intuitive, more flavorful), but this works too.
- Russia is now very focused on hurrying, which means Despotism is incentivized. And I guess drafting too, which might be reflected in a more aggressive late-game UHV. An earlier UB is also more interesting, given that on the old map, by the time you can build Institutes, you've already won.

 

[Leoreth]

For the Malay Up, wouldn't basically every one of their tiles qualify?

What do you mean by "every one of their tiles"? It applies to most city locations in their historical area for sure, but there are definitely locations that do not, e.g. the historical locations of Lamuri or Barus on Sumatra.

For the Rus, I'm not sure how a trade network tile is defined.

It refers to whether a tile is connected to your cities (i.e. for resource connections etc) so mostly river or road access.

For America, I assume the Pioneer is still in, so that means three UUs? But they're late game so their potential is more limited (makes sense given a war of independence is now basically impossible, and an early conquest would be ahistorical).

Correct, the Pioneer is still in and America has three UUs.

For India, having the health bonus on religious buildings instead would make more sense to me (more intuitive, more flavorful), but this works too.

Since religious buildings do provide happiness, they are included in this UP too.

 

[Steb]

Yay, very nice to see some development here!

Here are my own reactions / questions / feedback:

• Leaders and spawn dates:
  • Interesting that you chose Taharqa as the Nubian leader rather than the better-known Piye. Any particular reason why? I don't think we had even included Taharqa in the civ-specific score rankings, not that this means much
  • Incidentally, I'm going to have to revise some of those score rankings. 13th-century Sweden and Thailand open up a few options. The Vietnam list should exclude ancient leaders.
  • Speaking of Vietnam, I feel it needs at least another leader given its long history. Lê Thánh Tông is considered the greatest emperor, I think, but he's in the same period as Lê Loi (and could replace him, though both are valid choices). Ho Chi Minh could represent modern communist Vietnam. Gia Long is probably the best choice — he unified what became modern Vietnam around 1800.
  • Sweden might also benefit from a second leader, though I wouldn't be shocked at seeing Gustavus Adolphus in the modern age.
  • The changed spawn dates for the Khmer and Mande make sense. I still think earlier spawns for the Maya (in 750 BC, which is the establishment of their first cities, and would make them significantly more ancient than the Toltecs, as they should) and France (c. 450 AD) would be good ideas, but at this point I guess it's never going to happen.
• Unique attributes:
  • I like the new Aztec UB and am happy we're moving away from the human sacrifice theme
  • Where is the spelling "Atl-atl" for the Toltec UU coming from? I only ever saw this written in one word, "Atlatl"
  • "The Power of Palm Trees" sounds a bit ridiculous... "The Power of Coastal Settlement"? It's interesting that Swahili means "coastal", it would make sense to emphasize this.
  • Maybe the Thai Floating Market shouldn't require a river to be built, but give +2 food if there's a river? So that non-river cities can still build markets.
• Colors and symbols:
  • Glad to see you're adopting my proposed Teotihuacan/Toltec ocelot and color scheme!
  • I note a paucity of purple-colored civs, of which there already weren't that many. Any reason you changed Harappa? I liked that it had the pale purple color of the vanilla Indian civ, and there are many blue-green civs already. Including the Kushans in the same area.
  • Changing the Italy and Portugal colors will make Europe feel quite different, but I agree with both
  • Are the Hittites getting the old Ottoman color? It's hard to tell. If not I feel that that shade of orange should be used somewhere, it's quite nice. Maybe for Persia or Iran.
  • Changing the Incas back to golden yellow is a great idea
  • Is Assyria black? Will it be distinguishable enough from Barbarians? I suppose a bluish black might work.

 

[need my speed]

Wow.

I am also going to give you the most useful feedback ever:

Supercarrier (Carrier): +6 strength, +2 cargo space, +1 move, +2 cargo space, 30% interception chance, starts with Medic I, Sentry

Your American exceptionalism is showing in how you sneakily give the Supercarrier +4 cargo space.

Also, one question; I recall you mentioning you were interested in adding the Tarascans/Purépecha? Or am I misremembering that (or will the Toltecs suffice, even though they are rather different - but the region is small)?

But, again; wow. Awesome!

 

[Leoreth]

Interesting that you chose Taharqa as the Nubian leader rather than the better-known Piye. Any particular reason why? I don't think we had even included Taharqa in the civ-specific score rankings, not that this means much

Oh really? I would consider them equally well known. It's kind of the choice between the establisher of an empire vs the consolidator (Taharqa reigned significantly longer) and in this case I went with the latter.

Speaking of Vietnam, I feel it needs at least another leader given its long history. Lê Thánh Tông is considered the greatest emperor, I think, but he's in the same period as Lê Loi (and could replace him, though both are valid choices). Ho Chi Minh could represent modern communist Vietnam. Gia Long is probably the best choice — he unified what became modern Vietnam around 1800.

Sweden might also benefit from a second leader, though I wouldn't be shocked at seeing Gustavus Adolphus in the modern age.

Yeah in terms of leaders there is definitely room to add more for some of these civs - I often skipped them because it's not really required to get the civ to "work".

The changed spawn dates for the Khmer and Mande make sense. I still think earlier spawns for the Maya (in 750 BC, which is the establishment of their first cities, and would make them significantly more ancient than the Toltecs, as they should) and France (c. 450 AD) would be good ideas, but at this point I guess it's never going to happen.

Oh actually I missed noting the changed French spawn date: 496 AD and speaking of, also the changed Roman spawn date: 509 BC.

I considered moving the Maya spawn but it seems wrong to have the Maya precede Rome.

I like the new Aztec UB and am happy we're moving away from the human sacrifice theme

Yes. Another reason is that it kind of does not make sense once they adopt a state religion.

Where is the spelling "Atl-atl" for the Toltec UU coming from? I only ever saw this written in one word, "Atlatl"

Good question. It might be that I inherited from the naming of the model I ended up using. Will revise.

"The Power of Palm Trees" sounds a bit ridiculous... "The Power of Coastal Settlement"? It's interesting that Swahili means "coastal", it would make sense to emphasize this.

It might but it's actually rooted in the significance of palm oil for the Swahili economy as their only native grown crop (everything else was traded for) and the use of palm wood in their shipbuilding.

Maybe the Thai Floating Market shouldn't require a river to be built, but give +2 food if there's a river? So that non-river cities can still build markets.

Unfortunately the XML does not allow that.

I note a paucity of purple-colored civs, of which there already weren't that many. Any reason you changed Harappa? I liked that it had the pale purple color of the vanilla Indian civ, and there are many blue-green civs already. Including the Kushans in the same area.

That's a fair point. The reason why I changed Harappa is that in the early game there are two purple-ish civs around (Babylonia and Harappa) and I wanted a more balanced colour palette.

One thing I considered was using the India purple for the Maya, but it didn't look right. But I am also unhappy with the current Cyan, maybe a different shade of purple is fitting here. Purple Korea is also worth trying.

Are the Hittites getting the old Ottoman color? It's hard to tell. If not I feel that that shade of orange should be used somewhere, it's quite nice. Maybe for Persia or Iran.

The Hittite colour is different (a bit more drab than either the old Ottoman or the Indian orange) and I made it before deciding to change the Ottomans. It's true that their orange should not go unused, but there is no obvious candidate for it. I actually tried it for Iran but it looked wrong in that part of the world.

I guess for now it will have to stay in reserve for a potential Boer civ.

Changing the Incas back to golden yellow is a great idea

I never liked the blue vibe for the Incan civ - it feels much more appropriate on the map now.

Is Assyria black? Will it be distinguishable enough from Barbarians? I suppose a bluish black might work.

Yes, it's a very dark/desaturated blue. Maybe it should be a bit more saturated but to my eye it's clearly distinct from barbarian black. I am actually more concerned about the Nubian grey which is very close to the independent colour.

Your American exceptionalism is showing in how you sneakily give the Supercarrier +4 cargo space.

Right. Will correct.

Also, one question; I recall you mentioning you were interested in adding the Tarascans/Purépecha? Or am I misremembering that (or will the Toltecs suffice, even though they are rather different - but the region is small)?

I don't recall the particular conversation but I don't think I ever discussed them as a full civilization. However they are definitely represented as a minor city - Ts'intsuntsani already spawns on the current iteration on the map.

 

[Steb]

Oh really? I would consider them equally well known. It's kind of the choice between the establisher of an empire vs the consolidator (Taharqa reigned significantly longer) and in this case I went with the latter.

To be clear I should under no circumstances be considered an authority on Nubia lol. The main reason I thought Piye is better-known is that he's the default choice for Nubia in most discussion here on CivFanatics.

Oh actually I missed noting the changed French spawn date: 496 AD and speaking of, also the changed Roman spawn date: 509 BC.

I considered moving the Maya spawn but it seems wrong to have the Maya precede Rome.

Interesting — I would never have predicted that you'd make Rome spawn later. It means they get fewer turns, but I can see the logic; it doesn't make sense for Rome to already control Italy and beyond in the 700-600s BC. It also means that Greece and Carthage have more time to vie for Mediterranean supremacy before Rome spawns.

I'm not sure why Rome's date should be of any consequence on the Maya, though.

It might but it's actually rooted in the significance of palm oil for the Swahili economy as their only native grown crop (everything else was traded for) and the use of palm wood in their shipbuilding.

I did not know this! It's a pretty good reason and makes the power quite cool.

That's a fair point. The reason why I changed Harappa is that in the early game there are two purple-ish civs around (Babylonia and Harappa) and I wanted a more balanced colour palette.

One thing I considered was using the India purple for the Maya, but it didn't look right. But I am also unhappy with the current Cyan, maybe a different shade of purple is fitting here. Purple Korea is also worth trying.

Harappa and Babylonia barely interact and are quite distinct shades of purple, so not a problem IMO.

As for Korea, I'm not particularly a fan of the original blue-green you've given them. Since their flags since the late 19th century all incorporate a red and blue taegeuk (except for North Korea, which nevertheless is red and blue), it would be cool, given that the taegeuk is now their symbol, to give them a red and blue color scheme. I think a deep blue, somewhere between France's and America's, would fit well as the main color. There aren't any blue civs in East Asia except now the Khmer, I think.

Yes, it's a very dark/desaturated blue. Maybe it should be a bit more saturated but to my eye it's clearly distinct from barbarian black. I am actually more concerned about the Nubian grey which is very close to the independent colour.

Make Nubia purple, then? Or at least a purpler shade of taupe, like this.

 

[Leoreth]

Interesting — I would never have predicted that you'd make Rome spawn later. It means they get fewer turns, but I can see the logic; it doesn't make sense for Rome to already control Italy and beyond in the 700-600s BC. It also means that Greece and Carthage have more time to vie for Mediterranean supremacy before Rome spawns.

Yeah. I haven't actually done the math but with the increased number of turns overall, they still have a lot more turns until e.g. 1AD or whatever your target date for their Mediterranean empire is, so there now was space to move the spawn to a more historically rooted date. And you're right, the other motivation is to give a bit more space to their interaction with the Celts - which nevertheless is still something that needs to be sorted out.

I did not know this! It's a pretty good reason and makes the power quite cool.

It bothers me that there is no space in the game to put background info like this for unique powers. I have already been toying with the idea of making them a proper game "object" that with its own civilopedia entry. That would also help for UPs with more complicated effects - currently I am always split between their description being short and to the point and actually covering all the mechanical details. With a proper pedia section there could be a short but vague tagline followed by a more in depth explanation of the rules. Maybe I will get around to this when I am bored/annoyed by all the balancing stuff.

Harappa and Babylonia barely interact and are quite distinct shades of purple, so not a problem IMO.

You still see them together on the scoreboard.

As for Korea, I'm not particularly a fan of the original blue-green you've given them. Since their flags since the late 19th century all incorporate a red and blue taegeuk (except for North Korea, which nevertheless is red and blue), it would be cool, given that the taegeuk is now their symbol, to give them a red and blue color scheme. I think a deep blue, somewhere between France's and America's, would fit well as the main color. There aren't any blue civs in East Asia except now the Khmer, I think.

It's not green at all. Maybe the image I uploaded here is misleading or it's your screen settings (are you perhaps using a redshifted colour temperature on your screen?). But going by the RGB values it's a lighter blue, closest to the cyan used by Persia in the base game but a bit less saturated. I think it looks good on the map, even if it's lighter than the blue used on the Korean flag.

Regarding a darker blue, there is also the Turks - going darker than Turks and Khmer gets you very close to Sweden and France. They are of course in a different part of the world but nevertheless should not be too similar. On the other hand there is quite a gap in the spectrum of blue hues between the Khmer blue and what the game calls "light blue" - the colour used by Dravidia.

I tried using red as a secondary colour for Korea but it turned out too garish - it only really works on the actual South Korean flag because it's a small patch of those colours on an overall white background.

Make Nubia purple, then? Or at least a purpler shade of taupe, like this.

Yeah that's a good idea, it would contrast nicely with Ethiopia and Egypt and we don't have a colour like this in the game at all.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

The Hittite colour is different (a bit more drab than either the old Ottoman or the Indian orange) and I made it before deciding to change the Ottomans. It's true that their orange should not go unused, but there is no obvious candidate for it. I actually tried it for Iran but it looked wrong in that part of the world.

Maybe it can go to Vietnam instead? The lemon color does not have enough contrast with neighboring China's light yellow to look distinct on the minimap for me.

Re: blues, I am not really fond of the old Argentina color being given to Portugal (I still like the new Argentina color), although it is purely personal preference. Maybe we can use the new Portugal color from EUIV instead? It looks like this:

One thing to note though is that it is somewhat close to the color of the Blue Marble water.

I tried using red as a secondary colour for Korea but it turned out too garish - it only really works on the actual South Korean flag because it's a small patch of those colours on an overall white background.

Maybe a darker purple Korea as you suggested would work? Secondary color can be a lighter pink (think Polynesian pink).

 

[Steb]

Maybe it can go to Vietnam instead? The lemon color does not have enough contrast with neighboring China's light yellow to look distinct on the minimap for me.

Vietnam's historical color really is yellow though (and secondarily red).

Maybe a darker purple Korea as you suggested would work? Secondary color can be a lighter pink (think Polynesian pink).

It's not green at all. Maybe the image I uploaded here is misleading or it's your screen settings (are you perhaps using a redshifted colour temperature on your screen?). But going by the RGB values it's a lighter blue, closest to the cyan used by Persia in the base game but a bit less saturated. I think it looks good on the map, even if it's lighter than the blue used on the Korean flag.

Regarding a darker blue, there is also the Turks - going darker than Turks and Khmer gets you very close to Sweden and France. They are of course in a different part of the world but nevertheless should not be too similar. On the other hand there is quite a gap in the spectrum of blue hues between the Khmer blue and what the game calls "light blue" - the colour used by Dravidia.

I tried using red as a secondary colour for Korea but it turned out too garish - it only really works on the actual South Korean flag because it's a small patch of those colours on an overall white background.

You're right about the green, I guess I instinctively pattern-matched to the old dark cyan color from the base game, which was greener than this. I trust you that this looks nice in-game. I do think it's indeed worth trying purple with a soft red as a secondary color, though. I think I've previously seen versions of the tricolored taegeuk that had purple instead of blue.

Dravidia

I understand why you made this change but I want to register that I think it sounds silly to use a primarily linguistic grouping as a civilization

But I don't have a better solution, other than splitting the civ into Tamils and some other group like the Kannadigas or something.

 

[Hickman888]

A lot of very exciting information in this thread! Great job as always, Leoreth.

My two cents:

For Sweden:

Unique Power: Lagom: +50% great people birth rate while cities celebrate

I remember you made a thread earlier this year, where you were discussing the different ways you wanted to change "We Love the King Day" (WLTKD), both in its conditions to trigger, and its effects. Will 1.18 also have a revamped WLTKD? Because in it's current state, WLTKD is far too sporadic and short to have much of any use as a system to build a unique power around, IMO.

For Russia:

• Unique Building: Katorga (Jail): +4 production, -50% anger duration from sacrificing population
• Unique Power: Hardship: unhappiness from hurrying and drafting is applied to your happiest city

I really like how Russia is receiving the new "Sacrificial Altar", and getting some new tools to encourage them to whip. Very thematic. However, for their Unique Power, does this mean that a new city is going to receive the draft/whip everytime I draft/whip? Because if I draft a unit, then the previously "most happy" city now has +3 draft anger, so now there is going to be a new "most happy" city. Russia is easily going to have 25-35 cities by the time they're done expanding, and if everytime I draft a unit, a new city gets to bear the brunt of the anger, that is going to be a lot of guilt free whipping/drafting! Unless "happiest city" just means it is the city with the most , regardless of the anger already present in the city. In which case, the "happiest city" probably wouldn't change too much. But still, I wonder if this would just encourage the player to make a rump city with a National Theater, just to bear the brunt of the whole empire's worth of abuse.

Additionally, just based on the geography of their empire, there is almost no reason for Russia in the current map to utilize whipping or drafting. There is just such an abundancy of forests for production, and grasslands to feed the cities to work the lumbermills, that the player is never left wanting for more production. Everytime I've played a Russian game, I've far and away been the leader in . And looking at the pictures of the new map, it looks like it will be a similar situation there, too. I think if we want to really encourage the player to have to use whipping/drafting as Russia, we have to change their geography a bit. Maybe removing more grasslands in favor of more plains/steppes? I'm not exactly sure.

For Canada, Mande and Malay:

Canada:

Unique Power: Multilateralism: double trade route yield from years of peace

Mande:

Unique Power: Long Distance Trade: double trade yield from distance for inland cities

Malay:

Unique Power: Straits: +2 trade routes in cities with two or more landmasses in within their third ring

My only two cents here is that Unique Powers are more fun when the player gets to interact with them in some way. And trade route yields are really "under the hood" that it is very easy to miss what factors are going into them.

For the Mande/Malay UPs here, once you settle your cities in your few initial turns, boom. Your UP is essentially locked in for the rest of the game, and you don't really get to interact with it anymore. And for Canada, you're essentially getting a reward for not acting (i.e. going to war). Although Canada's UP is a bit more playstyle-involved than the other two (encouraging peaceful play), it's still not too exciting for the player.

Your new trade route-focused UP for the Dravidians:

Trade Guilds: +10% trade route yield for every traded resource

Is great, because it encourages an action by the player (exporting/importing resources), and the player gets their reward from doing that.

For Canada, perhaps: "Multilateralism: +20% trade yield for every permanent alliance signed", or "Double trade yield for 5 turns after brokering the end of a war." I'm not the biggest fan of either of those, but I do agree Canada definitely needs a commerce-centered UP, to help them maintain a decent economy while they expand to their historical territory and develop it, while also being the last-spawning civilization.

For Mande, I would suggest "Long Distance Trade: Double Gold from trade mission". Or maybe x1.5 gold if double is too much.

For Malay, "Straits: Double production of Lighhouse, Harbor, Wharf". Also not too sure about this one, but I'm still thinking of possibilities.

I would like to note, that with the Mande and Malay UPs, you are trying to capture the benefits that these civilizations gained by being positioned along important trade routes. In the Civilizations Reborn modmod, 1SDANi created a Trans-Saharan Route and a Spice Route, that functioned similarly to the Silk Road in your mod. Perhaps exploring this approach might be worth it, creating some new "corporations" to represent trade along these areas, to help give life to these important regions?

Other Unique Units:

You are also changing the existing unique units for many civilizations, which I think is great. Two more unique units which I think deserve to be changed are the Dravidian Rocketeer (Grenadier), and the Ethiopian Mehal Sefari (Rifleman). I only suggest this, because both of these unique units come into play way after their Historical goals are done, with the Dravidians finishing by 1200 AD, and the Ethiopians by 1500 AD. I also have put no thought into what their replacement UU could be. If you feel there is no reason to necessarily connect a UU to a civilization's UHV, or you are planning on changing these UHVs with the new map, then ignore this one.

 

[Dracosolon]

Additionally, just based on the geography of their empire, there is almost no reason for Russia in the current map to utilize whipping or drafting. There is just such an abundancy of forests for production, and grasslands to feed the cities to work the lumbermills, that the player is never left wanting for more production. Everytime I've played a Russian game, I've far and away been the leader in . And looking at the pictures of the new map, it looks like it will be a similar situation there, too. I think if we want to really encourage the player to have to use whipping/drafting as Russia, we have to change their geography a bit. Maybe removing more grasslands in favor of more plains/steppes? I'm not exactly sure.

At this point, changing the map to fit the UP seems backwards. I agree that Russia has never struck me as a civ lacking for but playtesting the new map can probably help with that. At the very least I'd expect this UP to help develop poor Siberian cities quickly.

 

[1SDANi]

Russia is easily going to have 25-35 cities by the time they're done expanding, and if everytime I draft a unit, a new city gets to bear the brunt of the anger, that is going to be a lot of guilt free whipping/drafting!

Temporary unhappiness contributes to instability in the current version.

 

[Leoreth]

I remember you made a thread earlier this year, where you were discussing the different ways you wanted to change "We Love the King Day" (WLTKD), both in its conditions to trigger, and its effects. Will 1.18 also have a revamped WLTKD? Because in it's current state, WLTKD is far too sporadic and short to have much of any use as a system to build a unique power around, IMO.

Yes, actually that conversation was prompted by me thinking about the Swedish UP and other UP or UHV interactions with this mechanic. I agree that due to the unpredictable nature of WLTKD the Swedish UP is currently underwhelming - Sweden will have to live with that for a while.

There are even more ideas that connect to it that I am holding back on for that limitation. For example I considered using it for the Thai UP as well. The appealing thing about WLTKD, especially with changed mechanics, is that it rewards you for avoiding unhappiness, which is generally not optimal. So that would allow a new form of challenge and a new form of play.

Eventually I do want to change the mechanics of WLTKD to be more predictable, more rewarding of excess happiness, and have more useful effects (if you recall, it only helps with maintenance costs right now). For the moment I have decided not to make any changes because it would just sidetrack me from getting the new maps and civs to work for very situational benefits. But it's possible that it eventually winds up under the changes I labeled "additional content" in the roadmap thread.

For Russia:
I really like how Russia is receiving the new "Sacrificial Altar", and getting some new tools to encourage them to whip. Very thematic. However, for their Unique Power, does this mean that a new city is going to receive the draft/whip everytime I draft/whip? Because if I draft a unit, then the previously "most happy" city now has +3 draft anger, so now there is going to be a new "most happy" city. Russia is easily going to have 25-35 cities by the time they're done expanding, and if everytime I draft a unit, a new city gets to bear the brunt of the anger, that is going to be a lot of guilt free whipping/drafting! Unless "happiest city" just means it is the city with the most , regardless of the anger already present in the city. In which case, the "happiest city" probably wouldn't change too much. But still, I wonder if this would just encourage the player to make a rump city with a National Theater, just to bear the brunt of the whole empire's worth of abuse.

No, happiest refers to the city with the most excess happiness, i.e. happiness minus unhappiness (another example where a pedia entry would be useful). Even more technically, it is the happiest city before hurrying, which is not necessarily the happiest city after hurrying (because the lost population can actually result in a happier city even accounting for the additional unhappiness).

This would naturally mean that since the target city gains unhappiness but does not lose population, it is unlikely to still be the happiest city, causing the affected city to cycle through your civilization.

And yes, this encourages the use of many additional cities to dump unhappiness into for guilt free rushing. And since the main source of unhappiness is population, it particularly encourages having many small cities that have excess happiness without much investment.

Is it overpowered? We will see, but I don't think so in the sense that the cost for rushing are still the same: happiness and population. The rushing city still loses population, and that is often but not always, especially in the short term, the more valuable expenditure. The UP mostly means that Russia can be a lot more flexible because the population and happiness costs do not need to come from the same city.

Additionally, just based on the geography of their empire, there is almost no reason for Russia in the current map to utilize whipping or drafting. There is just such an abundancy of forests for production, and grasslands to feed the cities to work the lumbermills, that the player is never left wanting for more production. Everytime I've played a Russian game, I've far and away been the leader in . And looking at the pictures of the new map, it looks like it will be a similar situation there, too. I think if we want to really encourage the player to have to use whipping/drafting as Russia, we have to change their geography a bit. Maybe removing more grasslands in favor of more plains/steppes? I'm not exactly sure.

Also something to observe, but I will point out that Russia has a lot fewer grasslands in the new map than in the current one, especially east of the Urals. Likewise, many forest tiles are now taiga and less cost effective to work. Russia also has access to many production resources though, although these are also constrained by the lack of nearby food.

The idea is that cities with a lot of food and population will be mostly in European Russia (and some special locations in Siberia) with a lot of territory that does not support large cities. The UP would help using the population of those food rich cities without crippling them as much with unhappiness (which is rarer with the available resources) by dumping the unhappiness into those small cities.

Russia in the current map is really a no brainer in the current map to the point of being overpowered with its easy access to huge tracts of grassland - things should be very different here, even though they might still be overpowered for other reasons.

So I think the suggestion you're pointing towards is already mostly the case.

My only two cents here is that Unique Powers are more fun when the player gets to interact with them in some way. And trade route yields are really "under the hood" that it is very easy to miss what factors are going into them.

I agree, but not every UP can be this way. Interactivity can also make a UP extremely situational and weak, especially if it relies on some assumed but rarely actually occurring AI behaviour - just compare the current Indonesian UP which is interesting in concept but ignorable in practice.

Another aspect is clarity - coupling a UP with a bunch of prerequisites or necessary actions makes it much more difficult to explain.

For Mande, I would suggest "Long Distance Trade: Double Gold from trade mission". Or maybe x1.5 gold if double is too much.

That was actually my original idea for their UP - but then after looking into the code I realised that the gold produced by great merchants is already impacted by the same modifiers as your trade route income. So I decided to simply change that factor, but it will also impact great merchant yields in a noticeable way.

I would like to note, that with the Mande and Malay UPs, you are trying to capture the benefits that these civilizations gained by being positioned along important trade routes. In the Civilizations Reborn modmod, 1SDANi created a Trans-Saharan Route and a Spice Route, that functioned similarly to the Silk Road in your mod. Perhaps exploring this approach might be worth it, creating some new "corporations" to represent trade along these areas, to help give life to these important regions?

It's a possibility, but I don't want to go the direction of giving every region their special corporation. The Silk Route and Trading Company corporations were created to reflect the outsized value of small islands and Central Asia that was poorly represented by their available resources. Places like South India and Malaysia do fine in this regard, as does the Niger area for the most part.

There is also an idea I have for changing the corporation system more thoroughly that is definitely out of scope right now, but it makes me hesitant to change anything else about the current corporation system.

You are also changing the existing unique units for many civilizations, which I think is great. Two more unique units which I think deserve to be changed are the Dravidian Rocketeer (Grenadier), and the Ethiopian Mehal Sefari (Rifleman). I only suggest this, because both of these unique units come into play way after their Historical goals are done, with the Dravidians finishing by 1200 AD, and the Ethiopians by 1500 AD. I also have put no thought into what their replacement UU could be. If you feel there is no reason to necessarily connect a UU to a civilization's UHV, or you are planning on changing these UHVs with the new map, then ignore this one.

Yeah this is definitely my view - while I think a UHV is the main thing shaping the playing experience of a civilization, it should not be the be all, end all of what drives its other attributes. While it feels nice to be able to utilise a UU or UB during your UHV it's also fine if they don't. Part of their role is to portray the full historical nature of a civilization and not all of it can always be captured by its UHV. Especially if it's a second UU and the first UU integrates well into the UHV - at this point it becomes more of a question of should we remove a second UU and replace it with nothing, which I'm sure doesn't help either.

Regarding the scope of their UHVs, I don't think I am going to change the Ethiopian goals. For the Dravidians I already mentioned that I want to represent Vijayanagara more so there will probably be a goal related to that, but that still puts its "end date" before Mysorean rockets became a thing.

 

[Matara]

Will there be further updates for the current small-map version? For example, will these new UU/UP applied to 1.17-like versions?

 

[trexeric]

Speaking of civ-specific score rankings (only very briefly mentioned, but I wanted to bring this up): with Sweden starting in 1252, maybe there should be one or two Late Medieval rulers in the Sweden ranking. Maybe Birger Jarl or Magnus Ladulås for a good-to-decent ruler, Magnus IV for a mediocre ruler, or King Birger Magnusson for a bad ruler. Not all of them, obviously, just one or two to round out the time period.

 

[Leoreth]

Will there be further updates for the current small-map version? For example, will these new UU/UP applied to 1.17-like versions?

No. Until the map branch is merged into the develop branch I will only make bugfixes on develop.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Portugal

• Unique Units: Carracks can bombard cities (8% per turn)

Woohoo! My ego wants credit for this making this suggestion way way back. Confirm?

 

[Dracosolon]

I really like how Russia is receiving the new "Sacrificial Altar", and getting some new tools to encourage them to whip. Very thematic. However, for their Unique Power, does this mean that a new city is going to receive the draft/whip everytime I draft/whip? Because if I draft a unit, then the previously "most happy" city now has +3 draft anger, so now there is going to be a new "most happy" city. Russia is easily going to have 25-35 cities by the time they're done expanding, and if everytime I draft a unit, a new city gets to bear the brunt of the anger, that is going to be a lot of guilt free whipping/drafting! Unless "happiest city" just means it is the city with the most , regardless of the anger already present in the city. In which case, the "happiest city" probably wouldn't change too much. But still, I wonder if this would just encourage the player to make a rump city with a National Theater, just to bear the brunt of the whole empire's worth of abuse.

Past the early game I'd expect to be a bigger limiter than . Russia's historical territory ain't exactly food rich to begin with, and the UP seems flexible enough that you should always have some extra somewhere. In fact, I wonder if reducing how many population points are needed to whip (instead of reducing unhappiness) wouldn't be a more appropriate effect for the UB, since as presented the proposed UB seems like it'd reduce the strategic impact of the UP (both with reduced unhappiness, and the extra making whipping less crucial in general).

Still, it's probably a good thing if the UP + UB combo isn't too good, otherwise Russia will risk being locked into Despotism to get anything done.

 

[Leoreth]

Woohoo! My ego wants credit for this making this suggestion way way back. Confirm?

Confirm!